When I watched her at Finlandia, I thought all of her edge jumps looked clean; I was surprised by the URs on those. And most of the toe jumps looked very close. I think if she starts rotating a smidge more on one, she will soon be OK on all of them. This is why I was rather encouraged by how she looked, despite the many jump errors. She had decent PCS and never gave up on the program. She did not look Gracie-style defeated to me.
2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating
- Thread starter R.D.
- Start date
When I watched her at Finlandia, I thought all of her edge jumps looked clean; I was surprised by the URs on those. And most of the toe jumps looked very close. I think if she starts rotating a smidge more on one, she will soon be OK on all of them. This is why I was rather encouraged by how she looked, despite the many jump errors. She had decent PCS and never gave up on the program. She did not look Gracie-style defeated to me.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
IMO, Rudy is the perfect coach for Polina. If anyone can understand overcoming adversity, it's Rudy. He became National Champion after going through some difficulties that would make most skaters quit the sport. Also, the year he won Nationals he was being coached by his sister Laura who never made a world team. However, she knew Rudy better than anyone and I think Polina trusts Rudy and that's big deal to any athlete.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
I think this may also explain why landings are more scrutinized than take-offs. It's very difficult for me to see pre-rotation in real time except for the most egregious cases. On landings, I find that URs are much easier to see because of the mark left on the ice when the skater "hooks" the landing or being able to see the skate turn on the ice. I'd prefer the ISU start becoming stricter with scrutinizing take-offs rather than more generous judging landings, because the system clearly does not intend to give full credit for a jump that isn't landed (mostly) backwards. However, this would be a hard policy to change when you have top skaters from influential countries like Japan (Satoko) and Russia who would be negatively impacted.
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2017
My ideal USA team:
Mirai
Karen
Bradie
My alternates, in order:
Ashley
Mariah
Angela
Caroline
Gracie
Polina
Mirai
Karen
Bradie
My alternates, in order:
Ashley
Mariah
Angela
Caroline
Gracie
Polina
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
How old is Caroline? I feel like she's been around forever. Didn't she skate with Michelle Kwan? Caroline Zhang is only 24......I guess it was Kimmie I was thinking of, not Michelle. Nevermind.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
Which skater would be a good example of pre-rotation? If I'm at an event, I can hear and under-rotation, and I can see a Flutz in the tracings. How do you spot a pre-rotation?
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2014
That's another problem. As Blades of Passion has pointed out, I believe, URs are sometimes not called according to the rules, i.e. if it's less than 1/4 rotation UR, it's supposed to be counted fully rotated. I'm not well versed on the technicality, though ... I just know the impact this unfairness has on Uber Fans like me, and Casual Viewers. It makes the sport seem arbitrary and biased. Which it is. It all depends on the one person who has so much power in the scoring. I couldn't care less about fractions of rotations. I do care about a fair outcome.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2014
you just made me hear it, too. 
I'm usually pretty tolerant; if skaters want to skate to a warhorse, I figure they have a compelling reason. But over the week-end, I realized I'm already sick of Carmen and could easily start ranting about it. The role would seem to be perfect for Stolbova, but I was just weary already. I don't know what Karen and her team were thinking. Maybe she'll change it.
And then .... Gaby Daleman skated to Carmen, and I absolutely loved it! Go figure. I think it's a great program for her.
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2016
Who is Hannah Harrell? She’s competing this week at the last jgp but I’ve never heard of her!
You know...I think you just articulated part of the reason why I've had such a "push-pull" relationship with FS lately. This continuous harping on a slight turn on the ice that's in many cases as devastating to medal chances as an outright FALL (much more disruptive to a program in my personal view) is, frankly, a major turnoff. And as if that weren't enough, the callers aren't even consistent in doling them out from skater to skater, and from competition to competition. It does *nothing* to skating's image as a "rigged sport" for TPTB to show no interest in addressing this problem. It was nice to let all that frustration go for a moment at last year's World Championships and just enjoy the live skating - but unfortunately that hasn't translated to watching events on TV.
Sorry for ranting, but it's nice to feel I'm not alone in feeling this way about the system...
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2014
That's true! Polina is always even-tempered.
When I watched her Finlandia FS, I became a Polina fan for the first time, despite the number of falls. By some fluke, the music wouldn't come onto the u tube video I watched, which usually puts me off a skating program. But I felt, as I watched her, that I could imagine the music because of her lyricism. Her arm movements were so balletic. This program, along with her Moonlight Sonata SP last year, really convinces me she's grown into her own beautiful style.
She could threaten for a medal by Nationals. But if she doesn't, I'll look forward to watching her for years to come.
She was Sixth place at novice last year, one of the promising rising juniors this year. She got either second or third in the Jump competition in June. She and Audrey were sent to Asian Open in August. She scored 5th behind Rika, Eun Soo, Ye Lem, and Mako. She was fourth at the US Novice Junior Challenge Skate. She has the fifth highest score from Domestic competitions, 152.35. It's just above Ting, who also got a JGP.
It think The reason she got a spot is because Starr and Ashley broke even with their scores and placement. Giving either the last spot would've been justified in both cases, but would be unfair to the other. So they have the spot to a promising new comer for international experience. That said I don't expect her to do much better than either Ting or Angelina. Let's just cheer her on. She's probably got the toughest line up. Rika, Nana, Ye Lim, Young You, Alena and Sofia. At best she's looking at seventh.
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2003
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
There will always be some arbitrariness to judging by humans. We know some technical callers, like Amano from Japan, tend to scrutinize rotation and/or takeoff edges more than others. It's tough because skaters who tend to be close to 1/4 short on most landings can sometimes get away with all close calls or end up with 6 UR calls, which can drastically affect the outcome of an event. That's one reason why I focus more of my energy on enjoying the programs and the tremendous athletic and artistic feats the skaters achieve, rather than the outcomes. Very often, I agree with what program wins a competition segment, but that isn't necessarily my favorite program or the one I go back and watch again and again. I don't allow arbitrary judging to sour my enjoyment of the sport, but everyone is different.
Or even their own career. Must be jarring to have relatively steady point totals (and thus expectations) and then all of a sudden you end up 10+ pts lower and you're all like, "WTH?!"
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
As I had predicted - and as some people had ignored - earlier in the season, Karen's jumps aren't in great shape, currently, and are prone to UR calls and hooked landings. Continually claiming that her jumps are sufficiently rotated and hoping for tech panels to agree with you isn't going to help her. As her fans we need to acknowledge that she has tech issues and encourage her to develop better snap on her rotation and height, instead of merely crowing every time that the judging panel has it wrong. Hopefully this Japan Open FS and US Classic is a wake up call for her to focus on getting sufficient rotation. That's two tech panels, in a domestic and an international competition setting, who have nailed her on URs. If you're convinced that her jumps at Worlds 2017 were sufficiently rotated at the time as reflected by the skate and the protocols, then her past few results should tell you that her jumps currently aren't sufficiently rotated. Karen's a smart girl - she will be making technical changes and not hope for a lenient tech specialist to come along.
Same goes with her lip edge call, which has been called the past two events, even though some folks on here were adamant that it's not a thing.
Rudy Galindo is not Polina's coach (that person seems to be in flux right now), but her choreographer. While the GWTW was not his best, I think he's done well by her with Moonlight Sonata and both of this year's programs. He knows her and, at this point, I think he knows how to play to her strengths.
I think if Polina wanted to get out of skating to focus on college, she wouldn't be attempting this comeback. And it is a serious comeback, she's grinding her way through low-level and mid-level competitions getting a bit back at a time. Part of it, I'm sure is wanting to be at Nationals in her hometown, but I suspect she also feels she could go farther. Unlike Rachel Flatt and Christine Gao (Stanford, Harvard), Polina's not attending a super-elite college. She's attending a respectable college and doing, frankly, a famously easy major (communications). She has a life outside of skating, but it strikes me as being arranged around skating. I remember at the time of 2016 Nationals that it was reported that she was looking at local colleges so as to not disrupt her skating.
Remember, she's only 19. She's a year older than Karen Chen. I don't think her time is past in terms of technique. If she had the skills she had two years ago, she'd be in the mix. It's pretty clear that she thought she deserved the U.S. title in 2016, I don't think she's given up on that ambition and *if* she gets her jumps back (and that's a big if), it's not an unreasonable ambition.
I think if Polina wanted to get out of skating to focus on college, she wouldn't be attempting this comeback. And it is a serious comeback, she's grinding her way through low-level and mid-level competitions getting a bit back at a time. Part of it, I'm sure is wanting to be at Nationals in her hometown, but I suspect she also feels she could go farther. Unlike Rachel Flatt and Christine Gao (Stanford, Harvard), Polina's not attending a super-elite college. She's attending a respectable college and doing, frankly, a famously easy major (communications). She has a life outside of skating, but it strikes me as being arranged around skating. I remember at the time of 2016 Nationals that it was reported that she was looking at local colleges so as to not disrupt her skating.
Remember, she's only 19. She's a year older than Karen Chen. I don't think her time is past in terms of technique. If she had the skills she had two years ago, she'd be in the mix. It's pretty clear that she thought she deserved the U.S. title in 2016, I don't think she's given up on that ambition and *if* she gets her jumps back (and that's a big if), it's not an unreasonable ambition.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2013
She should not make any changes to technique especially during a Olympic year. She got great jumps, she just needs to change some jumps out. Her team needs to be smart playing the GOE game. Instead of doing a Triple lutz and triple toe combo, which she under rotates because of that huge lutz and not get any GOE for. Just do a singe triple lutz at the beginning and then do the triple lutz double toe at the later part of her program. She will get +2/+3 across the board for those two jump passes. Replace her lip with a toe since that toe with GOE+ is going to score higher. She should just do a double axel/triple toe or a triple sal/ triple toe combo plus keep her massive axel half loop sal combo jump which will garner more GOE points. She will be unstoppable with the GOE on her spins and jumps and a clean program. She got the best spins of any of the ladies out there now. She needs to play smart and win. And her short program, she should do a triple sal/ triple toe combo, triple lutz, and axel.
Karen Chen was already getting lots of carrots in her junior years. She is a habitual underrotater. People should stop pretending it's a new thing or a conditional thing. She gets lucky if callers are lenient is all. It does seem like her URs are right around 1/4 give or take.
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
For the last time, no it doesn't. There is nothing in the ISU rulebook that defines how the start of a jump should be determined (only one clause about toe-axel takeoffs being punished) and how to measure jump rotation. Nor are these things taught to tech specialists in any real detail. It comes down to each tech panel to just make their own decision based upon their individual skating knowledge and angle they see and their own BIAS (ie, what the ISU bigwigs and their own federation tells them to do in order to create the desired competition results).
Since there are no definitions, the ISU gets to make the calls they want and strictly in terms of the rulebook people can't "lawyer" against it. Any call made at competitions can just be brushed off with a statement of "that's the angle the technical specialist saw and they did their best".
Just watch the toepick foot or vaulting foot on edge jumps during the takeoff. After you've gotten used to spotting the foot action, it becomes immediately noticeable when people are turning more than they should. You see how people are dragging themselves around on toeloop takeoffs rather than vaulting into the jump and you see the difference between totally clean Lutz/Flip takeoffs vs people who do the 1/2 turn on the ice first. I don't hate anyone for doing that on the Lutz or Flip either, it's "acceptable", but people who are doing the perfect takeoffs need to be given some kind of credit and buffer for it. They are rotating more in the air and it's more difficult.
