2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[frida80]

High pressure and expectations aren't bad for everybody. They happened to be bad for Gracie because of her unique set of circumstances (emerging during the ladies drought) and her particular psychology, but other skaters are perfectly capable to rise to the occasion.

The US junior worlds medalists who have all failed to win a single world senior medal (aside from Ashley) have all had less-than-ideal senior careers primarily because of their jumps. Caroline Zhang, Mirai, Ashley - all had UR problems. Not sure about Agnes off the top of my head. Rachael Flatt got nailed with some UR calls, but she was relatively consistent, even about rotating her jumps, but her skating had other weaknesses. If you want to look at other relatively successful US juniors, Alexe Gilles and Hannah Miller also had chronic UR problems. We already know Polina and Karen have problems with this. Most of the US juniors we see today also struggle with this.

I hope the USFS is properly penalizing URs at lower levels. Alysa Liu and Audrey Shin might be worth getting excited about, based on a list of what they've been able to do in competition, but I don't trust that they aren't URing their jumps.

They’re not penalizing underrotations at lower levels. Audrey was demolished at Asian Open because of her <‘s. The worst part is her coach is Rafael. She’s been with him for nearly a year and her jump technique is the same. Same with Tessa. Frank has done nothing bout her carrots and inconsistency. You can’t just put skaters with high level coaches and expect miracles. It has to start from the bottom.

 

[andromache]

They’re not penalizing underrotations at lower levels. Audrey was demolished at Asian Open because of her <‘s. The worst part is her coach is Rafael. She’s been with him for nearly a year and her jump technique is the same. Same with Tessa. Frank has done nothing bout her carrots and inconsistency. You can’t just put skaters with high level coaches and expect miracles. It has to start from the bottom.

Aghhhhh that's so frustrating!!! USFS keeps digging their own grave.

That said, while I'm disappointed in USFS because their continuing to reward UR'd jumps is something they should absolutely be able to STOP doing, I don't expect results from coaches overnight. "Frank has done nothing" with Tessa because change takes time. Raf did a lot with "old lady" Ashley's jump technique - I'm sure he will be able to help Audrey. I'm at least grateful that a talented girl like Audrey is with a known jump technician, rather than continuing to train under whoever taught her the poor technique to begin with. You gotta start somewhere and have patience.

 

[jFarrisFAN]

They’re not penalizing underrotations at lower levels. Audrey was demolished at Asian Open because of her <‘s. The worst part is her coach is Rafael. She’s been with him for nearly a year and her jump technique is the same. Same with Tessa. Frank has done nothing bout her carrots and inconsistency. You can’t just put skaters with high level coaches and expect miracles. It has to start from the bottom.

Check Audrey's Instagram. She recently posted a 3T3T and 3F3T (or lutz toe I forget) and her technique looks improved, less of a wrap

 

[beki]

Just because Karen hasn't received stellar choreography from someone else doesn't mean it isn't possible. She's so young. In the long run, her own choreographic ability would be enriched if she absorbed more artistic influences now. That said, I'm glad to see Carmen go.

 

[Globetrotter]

High pressure and expectations aren't bad for everybody. They happened to be bad for Gracie because of her unique set of circumstances (emerging during the ladies drought) and her particular psychology, but other skaters are perfectly capable to rise to the occasion.

The US junior worlds medalists who have all failed to win a single world senior medal (aside from Ashley) have all had less-than-ideal senior careers primarily because of their jumps. Caroline Zhang, Mirai, Ashley - all had UR problems. Not sure about Agnes off the top of my head. Rachael Flatt got nailed with some UR calls, but she was relatively consistent, even about rotating her jumps, but her skating had other weaknesses. If you want to look at other relatively successful US juniors, Alexe Gilles and Hannah Miller also had chronic UR problems. We already know Polina and Karen have problems with this. Most of the US juniors we see today also struggle with this.

I hope the USFS is properly penalizing URs at lower levels. Alysa Liu and Audrey Shin might be worth getting excited about, based on a list of what they've been able to do in competition, but I don't trust that they aren't URing their jumps.

And if you look at Zhang, Nagasu, Wagner, they all glaringly have mediocre SS. Same for Edmunds and Chen to a lesser extent. Very few of the recent US ladies have above average SS. I had always suspected that the basic jump techniques could not be built for the same reason that the basic edges and glides were never solid - not enough emphasis on them. Gracie was exceptional but of course we all know her issues. For the Russians and Japanese skaters, the latter all tend to have solid basics while the former by survival competitiveness and central fed control would have weeded out any who couldn't rotate the jumps fully.

 

[mrrice]

They’re not penalizing underrotations at lower levels. Audrey was demolished at Asian Open because of her <‘s. The worst part is her coach is Rafael. She’s been with him for nearly a year and her jump technique is the same. Same with Tessa. Frank has done nothing bout her carrots and inconsistency. You can’t just put skaters with high level coaches and expect miracles. It has to start from the bottom.

This is why I think our skaters need jump coaches. Love him or hate him, Tom Z. is out on the ice with that harness and so is Plushy with his academy students. When it comes to Raf, I think he might be my Favorite coach because his students are well rounded. They seem to have the best balance of technical and performance qualities.

 

[andromache]

This is why I think our skaters need jump coaches. Love him or hate him, Tom Z. is out on the ice with that harness and so is Plushy with his academy students. When it comes Raf, I think he might be my Favorite coach because his students are well rounded. They seem to have the best balance of technical and performance qualities.

Tom Z.'s only major accomplishment, from a jump-teaching perspective, is Vincent, along with Mirai's 3A. Max has had his 4S for years, of course, but a single reliable quad does not a jump coach make. But Vincent's quads (when they are fully rotated) and getting a lady in her 20s a 3A are more than, say, Tammy Gambill has done for her students technically.

I don't think of Raf as a creator of performers or artists; based on the K&C and the impression I get from his students when they talk about him is that with Raf, it's all about the jumps and the mental fortitude.

Adam and Ashley both came to Raf as seasoned performers who had worked previously with coaches who put more of an emphasis on artistry/performance, and both of them play pretty big roles in figuring out their programs and choosing their choreographers. Mariah came from the Rohene school of performance. Nathan had years of dance training and has spent time working with Marina Zoueva. It seems to me that Raf's strength, apart from his jump coaching and maybe the mental side of things, is that he enables his students to learn from whoever will make them into better skaters and performers, and for each of his skaters, they've all chosen very individual paths that work for them. Tom Z.'s students haven't really done this, aside from the time Max spent with Phillip Mills (which did bear limited fruit), and now Vincent with Tammy Gambill.

OTOH, someone like Frank Carroll seems to prefer to be involved in molding every aspect of his skaters, which works well for some skaters and not others.

 

[R.D.]

They’re not penalizing underrotations at lower levels. Audrey was demolished at Asian Open because of her <‘s. The worst part is her coach is Rafael. She’s been with him for nearly a year and her jump technique is the same. Same with Tessa. Frank has done nothing bout her carrots and inconsistency. You can’t just put skaters with high level coaches and expect miracles. It has to start from the bottom.

If UR jumps aren’t being called at the lower levels domestically, that’s a problem and helps explain the current state of US Ladies. Not sure how it helps them internationally if there is no incentive to fix the UR issues to be competitive domestically?

 

[mrrice]

Tom Z.'s only major accomplishment, from a jump-teaching perspective, is Vincent, along with Mirai's 3A. Max has had his 4S for years, of course, but a single reliable quad does not a jump coach make. But Vincent's quads (when they are fully rotated) and getting a lady in her 20s a 3A are more than, say, Tammy Gambill has done for her students technically.

I don't think of Raf as a creator of performers or artists; based on the K&C and the impression I get from his students when they talk about him is that with Raf, it's all about the jumps and the mental fortitude.

Adam and Ashley both came to Raf as seasoned performers who had worked previously with coaches who put more of an emphasis on artistry/performance, and both of them play pretty big roles in figuring out their programs and choosing their choreographers. Mariah came from the Rohene school of performance. Nathan had years of dance training and has spent time working with Marina Zoueva. It seems to me that Raf's strength, apart from his jump coaching and maybe the mental side of things, is that he enables his students to learn from whoever will make them into better skaters and performers, and for each of his skaters, they've all chosen very individual paths that work for them. Tom Z.'s students haven't really done this, aside from the time Max spent with Phillip Mills (which did bear limited fruit), and now Vincent with Tammy Gambill.

OTOH, someone like Frank Carroll seems to prefer to be involved in molding every aspect of his skaters, which works well for some skaters and not others.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I saw Agnes live at Skate Canada in 2010, she had HUGE jumps! I have also seen Rachael Flatt live. She had the best jump "landings" in the event. Beautiful posture and musicality. I hate to see people losing faith in Max. Until Nathan came along, Max was the best jumper in the US and I'd love to see him on the Olympic Team.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

This is why I think our skaters need jump coaches. Love him or hate him, Tom Z. is out on the ice with that harness and so is Plushy with his academy students. When it comes to Raf, I think he might be my Favorite coach because his students are well rounded. They seem to have the best balance of technical and performance qualities.

I agree that Raf is a great coach. Every student isn't going to have great results under his tutelage because so many factors impact results and technique besides coaching. Ashley definitely attempts more ambitious technical content now, and Nathan is arguably the best jumper in the world. Mariah is also a good example of a skater who emerged from the middle of the pack nationally to win a GP medal make the world team.

 

[skylark]

When it comes to Raf, I think he might be my Favorite coach because his students are well rounded. They seem to have the best balance of technical and performance qualities.

:agree: One thing that impresses me is that Rafael thinks long-term. A high-level skater came to him a year or two ago and publicly complained that she wasn't getting the results she wanted in one season, even though she was "working her a-- off." Raf's method is unusual, at least in the US. An article about his rink said that it's his precise mathematical measurements of skaters and their jumps that is notable. From what I understand, it's micro-adjustments, so it takes time.

I don't think of Raf as a creator of performers or artists; based on the K&C and the impression I get from his students when they talk about him is that with Raf, it's all about the jumps and the mental fortitude.

Adam and Ashley both came to Raf as seasoned performers who had worked previously with coaches who put more of an emphasis on artistry/performance, and both of them play pretty big roles in figuring out their programs and choosing their choreographers. Mariah came from the Rohene school of performance. Nathan had years of dance training and has spent time working with Marina Zoueva. It seems to me that Raf's strength, apart from his jump coaching and maybe the mental side of things, is that he enables his students to learn from whoever will make them into better skaters and performers, and for each of his skaters, they've all chosen very individual paths that work for them.
.

That's very interesting. And true, but I'd never thought of it that way. I'm always saying that the "enabling individual paths" thing is what I admire so much about Brian Orser as a coach. You just added a dimension to my thinking about Raf!

 

[andromache]

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I saw Agnes live at Skate Canada in 2010, she had HUGE jumps! I have also seen Rachael Flatt live. She had the best jump "landings" in the event. Beautiful posture and musicality. I hate to see people losing faith in Max. Until Nathan came along, Max was the best jumper in the US and I'd love to see him on the Olympic Team.

Please don't take my words as having lost faith in Max. (I don't want people to attack me!!!) I definitely think he has a real shot at the team. I simply think that if Tom Z. is the jump coach everyone hypes him as, Max would've been able to amp up his quad game a few years ago. Max was the best jumper in the US, and he wasn't getting the PCS internationally - adding in a new quad or two would've done great things for his scores. Instead, Tom Z. waited around for Boyang, Shoma, and Nathan to make it cool, and now Vincent is reaping those benefits. But I am glad Max seems to have gotten more comfortable with the 4T now.

 

[skylark]

Please don't take my words as having lost faith in Max. (I don't want people to attack me!!!)

:roll5:

 

[ice coverage]

Tom Z.'s only major accomplishment, from a jump-teaching perspective, is Vincent, along with Mirai's 3A. Max has had his 4S for years, of course, but a single reliable quad does not a jump coach make. But Vincent's quads (when they are fully rotated) and getting a lady in her 20s a 3A are more than, say, Tammy Gambill has done for her students technically.

... It seems to me that Raf's strength, apart from his jump coaching and maybe the mental side of things, is that he enables his students to learn from whoever will make them into better skaters and performers, and for each of his skaters, they've all chosen very individual paths that work for them. Tom Z.'s students haven't really done this, aside from the time Max spent with Phillip Mills (which did bear limited fruit), and now Vincent with Tammy Gambill. ...

FWIW, re Tom Z:

Re jumps: Max has added quad toe with promising success. Camden Pulkinen has said that he was able to quickly learn triple axel b/c of TZ.

Among those working with TZ's skaters on performance and PCS are Drew Meekins, Katherine Hill, Ryan Jahnke, Tom Dickson, and Ben Agosto.
Mirai and Vincent have choreo from Buttle. Max has said that one of the good things about getting this season's choreo from Hill is that he works with her several times per week. Etc., etc.

I am no expert on Gambill, but is she known for making her skaters into better performers??? Not obvious, IMO.
This season is the third year that Vincent has given a lot of credit to Drew for working intensively with him on performance.​

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Are there things the Russian system does better than the USFSA? Absolutely. But there are also important differences to keep in mind if you're going to compare them. For one, at the moment figure skating is an incredibly popular sport/hobby for young girls, which leads to a much larger pool of talent. Now of course, part of that is on the USFSA to find ways to market the sport better, but a bigger pool gives you the opportunity to pick out the most talented ones. This gets talked about a lot in the context of the Russian men. Figure skating is much less popular among boys in Russia and you see that it doesn't dominate in men's skating the same way at all. Most of the current Russian men (seniors anyway) are kind of headcases, so it's not like US athletes are the only ones who struggle to deliver.

Another thing is simply that, overall depth has improved for a lot of countries, so it's much less likely for the US to dominate ladies like it did at one time (which isn't to say they haven't fallen behind, but just that right now there are going to be very strong women from a number of countries to contend with, even if the USFSA does everything right).

And while I'm not saying that the US fed couldn't do more to support young athletes, there are also limits on the amount of money available for that, and that isn't necessarily something the fed has control over. Some countries will give more funding to athletes than others. Personally, I have no details on the financial situation in this case, but I'm just saying you can't assume that the amount of finding offered in Russia is necessarily a realistic option in another country.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Russia has more girls that can afford it. Figure skating is ridiculously expensive, and it's also not publicized as much, often because of that high cost. I don't know how to fix it but it definitely needs fixing.

 

[concorde]

They’re not penalizing underrotations at lower levels.

That is generally true but not always. It really depends on which judging panel (i.e., technical specialist) you get at a particular competition. A few panels are extremely critical while the majority are extremely lax.

 

[R.D.]

One thing that impresses me is that Rafael thinks long-term. A high-level skater came to him a year or two ago and publicly complained that she wasn't getting the results she wanted in one season, even though she was "working her a-- off."

Ah I think I know who you’re referring to. In any case, “she” doesn’t appear to be giving up from what I can see(?) although that easily could have happened.

No one can reasonably expect instant results. Change typically happens over time - particularly organizational change - but first, a catalyst must be set. As long as there are contender(s) in at least one discipline though I do not expect anything to change. Perhaps it will come down to ladies no longer being the big draw here as has historically been the case (again though, that would be something to happen very slowly).

 

[andromache]

FWIW, re Tom Z:

Re jumps: Max has added quad toe with promising success. Camden Pulkinen has said that he was able to quickly learn triple axel b/c of TZ.

Among those working with TZ's skaters on performance and PCS are Drew Meekins, Katherine Hill, Ryan Jahnke, Tom Dickson, and Ben Agosto.
Mirai and Vincent have choreo from Buttle. Max has said that one of the good things about getting this season's choreo from Hill is that he works with her several times per week. Etc., etc.

I am no expert on Gambill, but is she known for making her skaters into better performers??? Not obvious, IMO.
This season is the third year that Vincent has given a lot of credit to Drew for working intensively with him on performance.​

Max has shown progress in his performance ability every year, but he has not, IMO, made huge strides over the course of one season. Everyone progresses at their own pace, and Max's is admirable, but I do think more would be made of his talent with another coach. I acknowledged his 4T, too, but it seems to me that a strong jumper like Max who has been in good health (though there might be an injury history I am unaware of), with a coach known as a technician, could have gained a consistent 4T years ago and worked on adding a 4Lo or 4Lz now.

Vincent, OTOH, appears as though his skating skills and performance ability have improved a great deal since last season, though I'll admit we haven't seen much of him. Tammy Gambill seems to train skaters with inconsistent/unreliable jumps, but they are fairly good skaters and performers (Karen, Ricky Dornbush, Brendan Kerry). She's also Vincent's coach as of fairly recently, though he continues to spend plenty of time with Tom and his team as well. A combination which seems to be working in the short term.

Mirai's programs are lacking in choreography and expression. I understand that it's a matter of opinion and not everyone will agree, but this is an observation that many fans other than myself have made. I love that she is working with someone whose work I love as much as Jeff Buttle's, but there's little to be seen of his work in her performances. And while she continues to struggle with her technical deficiencies when she competes, she seems happy with Tom, which is also very important.

I'm interested to see how Vincent continues to progress with both Tom Z. and Tammy, and I think Karen Chen could probably benefit from training with Tom as well.

 

[Jammers]

High pressure and expectations aren't bad for everybody. They happened to be bad for Gracie because of her unique set of circumstances (emerging during the ladies drought) and her particular psychology, but other skaters are perfectly capable to rise to the occasion.

The US junior worlds medalists who have all failed to win a single world senior medal (aside from Ashley) have all had less-than-ideal senior careers primarily because of their jumps. Caroline Zhang, Mirai, Ashley - all had UR problems. Not sure about Agnes off the top of my head. Rachael Flatt got nailed with some UR calls, but she was relatively consistent, even about rotating her jumps, but her skating had other weaknesses. If you want to look at other relatively successful US juniors, Alexe Gilles and Hannah Miller also had chronic UR problems. We already know Polina and Karen have problems with this. Most of the US juniors we see today also struggle with this.

I hope the USFS is properly penalizing URs at lower levels. Alysa Liu and Audrey Shin might be worth getting excited about, based on a list of what they've been able to do in competition, but I don't trust that they aren't URing their jumps.

That was why there was so much hype for Gracie. She was past her growth spurts and had jumps that no other US lady had at the time even though she was just a a Junior. Some of those past US Junior medalists in the last decade were never going to become a World champion like Rachael Flatt no matter how consistent she was or Caroline Zhang with her bad jump technique and lack of speed. Gracie's technical ability was beyond any US Senior lady at the time and the hope was all she needed was experience and some polish but just like Jeremy Abbott some skaters are just not good competitors when the pressure is on. She was the one Junior in the last decade that could have made the World or Olympic podium or even won.

 

[ice coverage]

Max has shown progress in his performance ability every year, but he has not, IMO, made huge strides over the course of one season. Everyone progresses at their own pace, and Max's is admirable, but I do think more would be made of his talent with another coach. I acknowledged his 4T, too, but it seems to me that a strong jumper like Max who has been in good health (though there might be an injury history I am unaware of), with a coach known as a technician, could have gained a consistent 4T years ago and worked on adding a 4Lo or 4Lz now.

Vincent, OTOH, appears as though his skating skills and performance ability have improved a great deal since last season, though I'll admit we haven't seen much of him. Tammy Gambill seems to train skaters with inconsistent/unreliable jumps, but they are fairly good skaters and performers (Karen, Ricky Dornbush, Brendan Kerry). She's also Vincent's coach as of fairly recently, though he continues to spend plenty of time with Tom and his team as well. A combination which seems to be working in the short term.

Mirai's programs are lacking in choreography and expression. I understand that it's a matter of opinion and not everyone will agree, but this is an observation that many fans other than myself have made. I love that she is working with someone whose work I love as much as Jeff Buttle's, but there's little to be seen of his work in her performances. And while she continues to struggle with her technical deficiencies when she competes, she seems happy with Tom, which is also very important.

I'm interested to see how Vincent continues to progress with both Tom Z. and Tammy, and I think Karen Chen could probably benefit from training with Tom as well.

Most of my replies are off topic for the ladies thread, but ... (#sorrynotsorry):

What I dislike is the misperception (as in your first post) that TZ's skaters are not seriously *working* with specialists in performance/PCS. The TZ skaters are working hard on performance/PCS -- as hard as Raf's skaters (for example) are, I would say.

Max has been in a darned-if-I-do and darned-if-I-don't situation. Since at least the 2013-14 season, working on performance and PCS has been a major priority for him. Which did seem to mean that quad toe (until this season) and other quads (he has worked on quad loop in the past; and IIRC, also quad lutz) did not become competition-ready.

Thanks for acknowledging Max's quad toe in your second post, which was added to the thread as I was writing my reply to your first post.

As for injury, Max's hernia surgery did have effects on him for all of the 2016-17 season.

Not incidentally (IMO), Drew Meekins is the first coach listed in Vincent's IN bio. (The order of the three coaches is: Drew, Gambill, TZ.)
You seem to be completely ignoring the importance of Drew to Vincent's progress -- starting in 2015.
I'm not saying Gambill is not involved, but as I said before, Vincent has been effusive in giving the lion's share (IMO) of credit to Drew.
(BTW, Vincent used to train full-time with Gambill ... until injury required him to miss at least one full season ... before he moved to Colorado Springs to work with TZ and Drew. Gambill is not a new influence on Vincent's skating.)​