Is GOAT a meaningful concept?

[4everchan]

Fun for fan banter, sure.

So, are you having fun so far ?
And regarding Olympic gold medals... meh.... I mean no offense to Shaidorov but his win is only there to prove the point some of us have had for decades... that's not what makes someone the best skater

 

[Diana Delafield]

Unfortunately, if you had a thread that asked who is your favorite skater some posters would list wayyyyyyyyy more than one! That happens every time the question of "favorite" comes up. Always makes me laugh.

A woman at my club who skates (sort of--she puts on skates and then stands by the boards mostly) was annoying people asking everyone to name their favourite skater, seeming to want to get into a debate. She asked me, and I said "My partner, of course!" That ended that conversation quickly .

 

[TallyT]

and that's the only way it should be... meaning that they are your ultimate favourites and thus, nobody can dispute this. So if a thread said, who is your favourite skater ? then go for it... and be unashamedly biased about everything. That's all fine with me.

I find that when there are GOAT debates, people are trying to impose their biases on others, and/or they truly believe that they detain absolute truth. I mean, it's like trying to persuade me to suddenly become a practicing believer of any religion. Good luck with that : I am an atheist....

Also the "all times " principle... even of "an era" is seriously subjective. How can you say of all times when as a human, your experience is limited and of course, you cannot see the future... and of an era... how can one define that era without making arbitrary decisions ?

It's all garbage all along So GOAT is Garbage Offered As Treasure . For once, AI was useful giving me an alternate meaning for these letters

Who did something unmentionable in your cornflakes? For the most part, this thread has been happily discussing whether the term is meaningful (not objective truth, until we find a way to leave the cage of our own skulls there probably is no such thing) and not brought names into it.

Whether you or I or anyone else like it there have been, are and will be endless discussions on who is or was or will be the greatest of their or of all time in skating or a myriad of other fields. Both here and on social media and in the press and anywhere fans (or experts or historians or whatever, depending on the greatest of what) talk. Therefore by any but the most solipsistic viewpoint, it is a meaningful term since miillions find meaning in it, probably far more than don't.

Whether it is a useful term, as @el henry talks about, is a different question entirely and never going to be answered anyway since the mass of the human race will never stop comparing long enough to get a base line.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Who did something unmentionable in your cornflakes? For the most part, this thread has been happily discussing whether the term is meaningful (not objective truth, until we find a way to leave the cage of our own skulls there probably is no such thing) and not brought names into it.

Whether you or I or anyone else like it there have been, are and will be endless discussions on who is or was or will be the greatest of their or of all time in skating or a myriad of other fields. Both here and on social media and in the press and anywhere fans talk. Therefore by any but the most solipsistic viewpoint, it is a meaningful term since miillions find meaning in it, probably far more than don't.

Whether it is a useful term, as @el henry talks about, is a different question entirely and never going to be answered anyway since the mass of the human race will never stop comparing long enough to get a base line.

To be really (very) useful anyway, there would need to be a Figure Skater or team whose talent and "universality" would make all the rest superfluous, which isn't the case of course, in any domain by the way. I mean, to keep the same out-of-Figure-Skating example, I may "die on the hill" that Chopin's the greatest, but I wouldn't do without several other composers! And beyond those one wouldn't do without, there are many quite enjoyable!

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[4everchan]

Chopin is not even on my top ten..... and I am a pianist. I guess he was my favourite when I was a teenager. We all change.

 

[TallyT]

We all change.

We do and sometimes very quickly and not always in the right direction. For instance, in the 2024 thread mentioned above, you unequivocally named Patrick Chan as GOAT (hey, I am into archives, so I went and read it ) and now you applaud AI's definition of that same acronym as

GOAT is Garbage Offered As Treasure . For once, AI was useful giving me an alternate meaning for these letters

So........ which is it two years later?

 

[Magill]

We do and sometimes very quickly and not always in the right direction. For instance, in the 2024 thread mentioned above, you unequivocally named Patrick Chan as GOAT (hey, I am into archives, so I went and read it ) and now you applaud AI's definition of that same acronym as

So........ which is it two years later?

Well, it just seems some grapes went sour since the last time we've had a GOAT discussion thread on this forum and same posters fought fiercely for the GOAT title for their own faves, lol....
I understand the response was not satisfactory so now we're having this, lol.

 

[4everchan]

We do and sometimes very quickly and not always in the right direction. For instance, in the 2024 thread mentioned above, you unequivocally named Patrick Chan as GOAT (hey, I am into archives, so I went and read it ) and now you applaud AI's definition of that same acronym as

So........ which is it two years later?

LOL. Why am I not surprised about this ?

I did reply to that 2024 thread sharing my personal goat for all disciplines and reluctantly so as you can read there. ( I said I would bite at the OP and drink some wine while watching the thread implode)... So, when using the full context, one can see that I've been quite consistent.

I always believed that GOAT is meaningless in general and fans who do push this GOAT label on a specific athlete they like are just very telling us who their favourite skater or tennis player is BTW I am a Nadal fan...grew to appreciate Roger but I dislike Djoko and the latter is often called the GOAT. And I don't care

Two years later, I still do not believe that the term GOAT is meaningful.

If you ask me who is the best skater for me, then I will point out my username... which I have had for 10 years +

Do I think that Patrick is that special skater for everyone? I know he is not and I am quite fine with this To each their own GOAT which is pretty consistent with my personal beliefs. And thus, the term is indeed meaningless.

 

[Magill]

LOL. Why am I not surprised about this ?

I did reply to that 2024 thread sharing my personal goat for all disciplines and reluctantly so as you can read there. ( I said I would bite at the OP and drink some wine while watching the thread implode)... So, when using the full context, one can see that I've been quite consistent.

I always believed that GOAT is meaningless in general and fans who do push this GOAT label on a specific athlete they like are just very telling us who their favourite skater is

Two years later, I still do not believe that the term GOAT is meaningful.

If you ask me who is the best skater for me, then I will point out my username... which I have had for 10 years +

Do I think that Patrick is that special skater for everyone? I know he is not and I am quite fine with this To each their own GOAT which is pretty consistent with my personal beliefs. And thus, the term is indeed meaningless.

Oh, it was not just one post, many many more, and you were almost the first one to "answer the bait" then, lol. Not reluctantly at all.
So do I understand you correctly that in fact you want us now to see Patrick Chan as .... Garbage Offered As Treasure?
Or the GOAT would mean something different when you're using it and when others do?
Why using this offensive language? I really don't get it, why?

 

[4everchan]

I am not calling anyone anything. I am saying that the term is meaningless. I had fun with AI and asked to provide funny alternatives and that was one of them. Please stop putting words into my mouth. This is exactly why this term is not meaningful because it cannot be accepted unanimously. In that sense, garbage is someone else's treasure. I guess AI wasn't that wrong after all.

My last contribution to this thread because this was supposed to be fun and light hearted and it's no longer at all.

 

[TallyT]

LOL. Why am I not surprised about this ?

Because you led with your chin? Quoting AI 'clever snark' of all things tends to do that... (I freely admit I get antsy at people quoting AI's 'writing' and using it approvingly.)

To each their own GOAT which is pretty consistent with my personal beliefs. And thus, the term is indeed meaningless.

"When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." Which is probably true for most most of not all of us, a solipsistic viewpoint as I said above but all too human.

And again, something that many many people find meaningful - and that other people try very very hard to say very very loudly is not - is by definition meaningful to them and if there are enough of them....

 

[Magill]

I am not calling anyone anything. I am saying that the term is meaningless. I had fun with AI and asked to provide funny alternatives and that was one of them. Please stop putting words into my mouth. This is exactly why this term is not meaningful because it cannot be accepted unanimously. In that sense, garbage is someone else's treasure. I guess AI wasn't that wrong after all.

My last contribution to this thread because this was supposed to be fun and light hearted and it's no longer at all.

Offensive joke is never a good joke. In fact, it is not a joke at all.
I thought you said you were not a teenager any more.

 

[4everchan]

"When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." Which is probably true for most most of not all of us, a solipsistic viewpoint as I said above but all too human.

And again, something that many many people find meaningful - and that other people try very very hard to say very very loudly is not - is by definition meaningful to them and if there are enough of them....

A while ago, there was a thread asking if Figure skating was art or not. I was very strongly saying it isn't.

Does that mean I am in no circumstances ever again to call a skater or a program "artistic" in another thread ? It doesn't mean I believe that skating is an art. It means I am using the term loosely for the purpose of another discussion. Gosh. This is not a law court.

If a thread is asking who is the GOAT in my opinion and I feel like biting like I did.. I will.

If someone is asking me if that term is meaningful, I will say no. It's not. If it's meaningful to you, then please, be my guest.

I don't see any problem with that in an online discussion forum.

 

[Magill]

A while ago, there was a thread asking if Figure skating was art or not. I was very strongly saying it isn't.

Does that mean I am in no circumstances ever again to call a skater or a program "artistic" in another thread ? It doesn't mean I believe that skating is an art. It means I am using the term loosely for the purpose of another discussion. Gosh. This is not a law court.

If a thread is asking who is the GOAT in my opinion and I feel like biting like I did.. I will.

If someone is asking me if that term is meaningful, I will say no. It's not. If it's meaningful to you, then please, be my guest.

I don't see any problem with that in an online discussion forum.

There's a whole universe between saying "I don't think it means anything" and saying "I think it means Garbage Offered As Treasure".
And even a teenager can tell a difference... and I am not a teenager, either.

 

[Arigato]

Chopin is not even on my top ten..... and I am a pianist.

Bach is still my fave and many consider him the GOAT, but all I care about is his music. Elsewhere, this thread seems to have turned into GOAT poop as I figured it would. Can people really not have a discussion without getting heavy? Lighten up, people.

 

[yfan1]

Why would there be one "GOAT" for all disciplines, when did Yuzuru Hanyu and Patrick Chan skate as women or in Pairs or in Ice Dance.

I demand people stop pretending men are as good as women at skating

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

It has to be Kaley and Panda (in 2nd picture):



https://www.instagram.com/p/DU4MfF4ETWR/?img_index=2

(Can anybody work out who the pictures are based on? Thumbelina and Sidney are definitely at the Sochi 2014 Olympics. But I am not sure where Kaley and Panda are. I can't find an Olympics, be it Senior or Junior, with the combination of the boards in that shade of blue and the Olympic rings displayed above in their correct colours).

But, to answer the original question, no it is not a meaningful concept. You can't objectively compare different eras when the rules are constantly changing so much. At best, you can only say who is the greatest of a particular season. But even then, you have different judges and panels at each competition.

To declare somebody as the greatest, you need there to be far fewer variables than there are in this sport.

But we can still appreciate the greatness of particular skaters.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[iluvtodd]

Unfortunately, if you had a thread that asked who is your favorite skater some posters would list wayyyyyyyyy more than one! That happens every time the question of "favorite" comes up. Always makes me laugh.

Guilty as charged!

 

[TT_Fin]

Jackson Haines it is.