2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[R.D.]

Alright now, back to the women...

Gracie's technical ability was beyond any US Senior lady at the time and the hope was all she needed was experience and some polish but just like Jeremy Abbott some skaters are just not good competitors when the pressure is on. She was the one Junior in the last decade that could have made the World or Olympic podium or even won

Well...except she didn’t...so, really, COULD she have won? :scratch:

I guess we’ll never know how much of a difference (if any) less outside pressure on her would have had. In any case, it seemed to be more INTERNAL pressure that ultimately undid her, although All The Hype(TM) surely couldn’t have been helping things.

Which brings me to another pet peeve of mine having to do with the US women - this CONSTANT need to hype up - or even artificially create - The Next Big Star. This isn’t limited to just the fans BTW - the Fed does it, the press do it, sponsors do it, the TV commentators do it, even fellow skaters and coaches do it (to a degree). Just because they may have mad talent doesn’t mean they deserve all that pressure. Now, I think pressure from fellow competition (other skaters stepping up) is a good thing - the positive kind - but when it comes from what people HOPE to see out of you, well is there any nicer term than “kiss of death”?

 

[andromache]

What I dislike is the misperception (as in your first post) that TZ's skaters are not seriously *working* with specialists in performance/PCS. The TZ skaters are working hard on performance/PCS -- as hard as Raf's skaters (for example) are.

Max has been in a darned-if-I-do and darned-if-I-don't situation. Since at least the 2013-14 season, working on performance and PCS has been a major priority for him. Which did seem to mean that quad toe (until this season) and other quads (he has worked on quad loop in the past; and IIRC, also quad lutz) did not become competition-ready.

Not incidentally (IMO), Drew Meekins is the first coach listed in Vincent's IN bio. (The order of the three coaches is: Drew, Gambill, TZ.)
You seem to be completely ignoring the importance of Drew to Vincent's progress -- starting in 2015.
I'm not saying Gambill is not involved, but as I said before, Vincent has been effusive in giving the lion's share (IMO) of credit to Drew.
(BTW, Vincent used to train full-time with Gambill ... until injury required him to miss at least one full season ... before he moved to Colorado Springs to work with TZ and Drew. Gambill is not a new influence on Vincent's skating.)​

While Tom Z.'s skaters might be working hard with these performance specialists, that work does not show in their performances at the level we see from skaters with other coaches, in my opinion.

Rafael's skaters in particular, since that was the original comparison - while Ashley and Adam do lack in terms of skating skills - from a performance/artistic standpoint, they present definite artistic styles from their own unique points of view, and I think Nathan may have found his style, too.

Looking at skaters from other coaches, Josh (who used to work with Tom Z.) and Jason both have superior skating skills to Raf's and Tom's skaters, along with very successful artistic and presentation style. Neither Max nor Mirai seem to have found that yet (though I think most fans will agree that Mirai was a more effective performer in the years before she worked with Tom Z.) Josh and Jeremy Abbott, another excellent performer with great skating skills, both worked with Tom for years before moving on to other coaches.

Even working with specialists, it seems like the head coach really matters. (Thank you, btw, for the correction about Vincent's exact coach situation.) For example, Jason Brown undoubtedly works with plenty of technical specialists to make that quad finally happen. If he was to change coaches to someone like Raf or Tom Z. or work with one of them as a co-head coach with Kori? (I don't know - but it seems to be the case that Kori Ade is not a jump coach, though she's extremely good at creating otherwise well-rounded skaters).

Anyway, this is all just my impression, misperception or not, we're all just making inferences based on relatively limited information and what amounts to anecdotal data. I just want to see as many skaters as possible skating to their full potential.

 

[skylark]

Ah I think I know who you’re referring to. In any case, “she” doesn’t appear to be giving up from what I can see(?) although that easily could have happened.

No one can reasonably expect instant results. Change typically happens over time - particularly organizational change - but first, a catalyst must be set. As long as there are contender(s) in at least one discipline though I do not expect anything to change. Perhaps it will come down to ladies no longer being the big draw here as has historically been the case (again though, that would be something to happen very slowly).

It's Hannah Miller I was speaking of, and according to her Wiki page she switched coaches again one year later, to Tammy Gambill. So no, she's not giving up. Good for her. I should point out that I don't know precisely why she switched; there could have been many reasons. She'd been coached by her aunt up until switching to Raf, so she may have been accustomed to a lot of personal attention. But I don't know, I'm only speculating.

I hope she's happy with Gambill!

 

[ice coverage]

... It seems to me that Raf's strength, apart from his jump coaching and maybe the mental side of things, is that he enables his students to learn from whoever will make them into better skaters and performers, and for each of his skaters, they've all chosen very individual paths that work for them. Tom Z.'s students haven't really done this, aside from the time Max spent with Phillip Mills (which did bear limited fruit), and now Vincent with Tammy Gambill.
...

While Tom Z.'s skaters might be working hard with these performance specialists ...

I have re-quoted your original post that led to my replies.

Your original post said that Raf "enables his students to learn from whoever will make them into better skaters and performers."
Followed by, "Tom Z's students haven't really done this ...."

My point was and is that TZ's skaters *are* making serious efforts and working hard "to learn from whoever will make them into better skaters and performers."

Your first post certainly gave the impression that you did not believe that TZ's skaters "really" are.

I agree that working hard and making serious efforts are not necessarily reflected in competition results. But again, what I quoted from your original post seemed to be about [ETA: supposed] lack of interest or effort.

(As for Jason: I have no opinion as to whether or not another primary coach in addition to or instead of Kori would make a difference with his not-yet-reliable quads. All I know is that I support the efforts of Jason to improve .. and the efforts of TZ's skaters to improve ... and the efforts of Raf's skaters to improve .........)

... I just want to see as many skaters as possible skating to their full potential.

As do I.

 

[skylark]

That was why there was so much hype for Gracie. She was past her growth spurts and had jumps that no other US lady had at the time even though she was just a a Junior. Some of those past US Junior medalists in the last decade were never going to become a World champion like Rachael Flatt no matter how consistent she was or Caroline Zhang with her bad jump technique and lack of speed. Gracie's technical ability was beyond any US Senior lady at the time and the hope was all she needed was experience and some polish but just like Jeremy Abbott some skaters are just not good competitors when the pressure is on. She was the one Junior in the last decade that could have made the World or Olympic podium or even won.

Since Ashley was a Junior in the last decade (she won her 2nd bronze at Junior Worlds in 2008-9 season), and she DID make the World Podium, your statement is incorrect.

 

[temadd]

:agree: One thing that impresses me is that Rafael thinks long-term. A high-level skater came to him a year or two ago and publicly complained that she wasn't getting the results she wanted in one season, even though she was "working her a-- off." Raf's method is unusual, at least in the US. An article about his rink said that it's his precise mathematical measurements of skaters and their jumps that is notable. From what I understand, it's micro-adjustments, so it takes time.

In an interview several years ago (I think it was soon after Ashley started with Raf) Raf said that it takes 4-5 years to change someone's jump technique. Let's hope that at this 4 year mark, Ashley is able to prove him right.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Think about this:

Vivian Le
Starr Andrews
Kaitlin Nguyen
Angela Wang
Tessa Hong

All big potential.All going to pacific coast sectionals. And unless one of them gets an international assignment that coincides with that sectionals , one of these 5 will not make it to Nationals.

 

[skylark]

In an interview several years ago (I think it was soon after Ashley started with Raf) Raf said that it takes 4-5 years to change someone's jump technique. Let's hope that at this 4 year mark, Ashley is able to prove him right.

Yes! Go Ashley! I can hardly wait for Friday ... it seems like so long since we've seen her skate.

 

[LRK]

Alright now, back to the women...




Well...except she didn’t...so, really, COULD she have won? :scratch:

I guess we’ll never know how much of a difference (if any) less outside pressure on her would have had. In any case, it seemed to be more INTERNAL pressure that ultimately undid her, although All The Hype(TM) surely couldn’t have been helping things.

Which brings me to another pet peeve of mine having to do with the US women - this CONSTANT need to hype up - or even artificially create - The Next Big Star. This isn’t limited to just the fans BTW - the Fed does it, the press do it, sponsors do it, the TV commentators do it, even fellow skaters and coaches do it (to a degree). Just because they may have mad talent doesn’t mean they deserve all that pressure. Now, I think pressure from fellow competition (other skaters stepping up) is a good thing - the positive kind - but when it comes from what people HOPE to see out of you, well is there any nicer term than “kiss of death”?

I agree with most of this, just to add that I think people's "hoping" is not that bad - but rather those "hopes" turning into "expectations". And then, when those "expectations" are not realised - or not realised immediately - turning on the skater because she did not live up to those "expectations" that people themselves created. That can turn really vicious.

Also, internal pressure can be exacerbated by outside pressure. If people constantly tell you how great you are, and how you are going to win all things - and then you fail... well, it is clearly your own fault then, isn't it? I think that kind of thing can create great depression. Or exacerbate it if it is already there.

 

[R.D.]

It's Hannah Miller I was speaking of, and according to her Wiki page she switched coaches again one year later, to Tammy Gambill. So no, she's not giving up. Good for her. I should point out that I don't know precisely why she switched; there could have been many reasons. She'd been coached by her aunt up until switching to Raf, so she may have been accustomed to a lot of personal attention. But I don't know, I'm only speculating.

I hope she's happy with Gambill!

ETA: Ah, here it is - Found the video (Cup of China 2015). Go to 6:51 and listen closely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWjoNeYOZSE

She says: "I feel like I'm working my butt off and not getting anywhere." Although it's unclear where exactly she wants to go

 

[R.D.]

I agree with most of this, just to add that I think people's "hoping" is not that bad - but rather those "hopes" turning into "expectations". And then, when those "expectations" are not realised - or not realised immediately - turning on the skater because she did not live up to those "expectations" that people themselves created. That can turn really vicious.

COMPLETELY agree with the bolded. If there is ONE continuous theme I've seen play out here through 15 years on this forum - it's precisely this.

That said, I'm of the thought that the two are actually connected, and are more or less internalized the same way. Hopes can be PROJECTED onto a skater in a way that makes them FEEL like expectations, even if that was not the original intention.

Also, internal pressure can be exacerbated by outside pressure. If people constantly tell you how great you are, and how you are going to win all things - and then you fail... well, it is clearly your own fault then, isn't it? I think that kind of thing can create great depression. Or exacerbate it if it is already there.

Yes. In fact, this can even be another (subliminal) method of communicating expectations to the skater. Even though it is meant well, as a compliment - it can be internalized as "they want great things from me every time I get out there".

 

[LiamForeman]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Russia has more girls that can afford it. Figure skating is ridiculously expensive, and it's also not publicized as much, often because of that high cost. I don't know how to fix it but it definitely needs fixing.

I'm amazed how many middle class families have their kid/s in skating. If I had a kid, I'd say NO WAY! I'd rather put my money in other sports, even tennis which isn't cheap but if they are good enough MIGHT get a college scholarship (or become the next Sharapova, lol). Skating really is ridiculously expensive in the US. My skates cost $1000 15 years ago when I started skating lessons and wanted to have the right equipment. I couldn't imagine coaching, ice, costume, travel, choreo, and the list goes on how it is such a money pit. It isn't this bad in Russia. That makes a huge difference.

 

[LiamForeman]

It's Hannah Miller I was speaking of, and according to her Wiki page she switched coaches again one year later, to Tammy Gambill. So no, she's not giving up. Good for her. I should point out that I don't know precisely why she switched; there could have been many reasons. She'd been coached by her aunt up until switching to Raf, so she may have been accustomed to a lot of personal attention. But I don't know, I'm only speculating.

I hope she's happy with Gambill!

THAT'S who I've been trying to think of! She had a great write-up somewhere right when she left for Raf. She came off a really poor JGP result I think and every single jump was downgraded. I wondered how it was going for her, and then Mariah Bell came out last season and I figured that's who I had been thinking of. No it was definitely Hannah. Is she competing in Sectionals? TIA

 

[bevybean]

I don't think it's so much LETTING it fall to pieces as it is that they've been able to coast for decades with minimal involvement in the process due to the success of the singles disciplines. But since the change from 6.0 to Code of Points, there has been a notable shift in the balance and all of a sudden, the well is dry. But USFS hasn't had to find water for so long that it's almost like they don't know how to go about it. It's almost like the transition between systems domestically wasn't exactly smooth (I can't speak to it directly though - can anyone "in the system" attest to this?)

The men at least have had one OGM (2010) and seem to have another contender in 2018 so one could argue that those cycles are shorter. But the women - traditionally the US's stronghold - have seemed to have struggled the most to adapt. Apart from Wagner's World silver in 2016, they literally have kept off the World/Oly podium ever since. Was it after 2006 that the ISU began cracking down on UR jumps?

I read an opinion piece right around the time of the 2014 OG on why US skating is suffering. It suggested that the change in scoring systems was part of the problem because it put more focus on technique. I'm by far not a technical expert, so I'd love to hear other opinions. One example given was that Tara Lipinski under the 6.0 was able to succeed because she could land jumps even though her jump technique was poor. Now under IJS technique is looked at just as much as whether or not there was a clean landing.

I hope I explained that clearly enough. Also, the article did list 3-4 other contributing factors besides this one.

 

[skylark]

ETA: Ah, here it is - Found the video (Cup of China 2015). Go to 6:51 and listen closely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWjoNeYOZSE

She says: "I feel like I'm working my butt off and not getting anywhere." Although it's unclear where exactly she wants to go

That was it. She wasn't happy, that's for sure, gave up on the performance. I watched Karen's and Anna's FS at the event while I was in the neighborhood.

 

[Globetrotter]

I read an opinion piece right around the time of the 2014 OG on why US skating is suffering. It suggested that the change in scoring systems was part of the problem because it put more focus on technique. I'm by far not a technical expert, so I'd love to hear other opinions. One example given was that Tara Lipinski under the 6.0 was able to succeed because she could land jumps even though her jump technique was poor. Now under IJS technique is looked at just as much as whether or not there was a clean landing.

I hope I explained that clearly enough. Also, the article did list 3-4 other contributing factors besides this one.

That is a really weird reason. CoP scoring had already been in place for more than a decade. The change from 6.0 to CoP affected all skaters, not just US. The jump technique is important as far as being able to rotate and also land the jumps. UR and edge issues under CoP has now been flagged as deductibles (lower BV, -ve GOEs). The good thing of the CoP system, if applied consistently, is skaters will know exactly where they are losing points. Under 6.0, tech vs presentation, well do you know if its the spins you are crapped at, or footwork or bad posture and bad bladework? 6.0 does not have the granularity, so skaters are incentivised to be all rounded, overall package oriented. I can imagine that under the CoP system, poor skaters like Surya Bonaly will repeatedly get badly scored in SS and she will be be forced to improve that aspect. If after more than a decade, the US Fed really still hadn't realised that technique and basics are important in a skaters' development, oh dear then something is very wrong. I think it is more than that. The US men for instance seems to have little of such issues, so it must be something that is more than just a poor understanding of CoP. Perhaps the way girls / ladies are being managed somehow is not effective?

 

[Moxiejan]

Think about this:

Vivian Le
Starr Andrews
Kaitlin Nguyen
Angela Wang
Tessa Hong

All big potential.All going to pacific coast sectionals. And unless one of them gets an international assignment that coincides with that sectionals , one of these 5 will not make it to Nationals.

At least Courtney Hicks just got one & no longer has to go to this sectional.

 

[concorde]

For a long time, USFS valued artistry over technical skills (primarily jumps). As a result, difficult transitions and SS were valued greater than jumps. But to get the big jumps, you have to sacrifice the transitions in the short term. Once the jumps get stable, the transitions can be added.

The above is the logic USFS used for introducing the bonus points at the lower IJS levels. The bonus system rewards skaters for taking the risk of trying the big jumps sooner (but somewhat unstable) sooner rather than waiting for the jumps to become stable and then introduce them into programs. Fyi - we just completed the 3rd year under this system.

Even doing that, USFS realized that lack of speed was an issue with their ISP skaters. The problem is skaters cannot gain speed later in their careers; rather it needs to be pushed at younger ages. With that in mind, USFS eliminated some of the components (transitions) at the lower IJS levels so that speed could be encouraged Fyi - we just completed our first year under this revised program components system.

So the first class where we will see the benefit of the first round of changes are the current Novices and only if the moved up 1 level each year.

 

[MarinHondas]

For a long time, USFS valued artistry over technical skills (primarily jumps). As a result, difficult transitions and SS were valued greater than jumps. But to get the big jumps, you have to sacrifice the transitions in the short term. Once the jumps get stable, the transitions can be added.

The above is the logic USFS used for introducing the bonus points at the lower IJS levels. The bonus system rewards skaters for taking the risk of trying the big jumps sooner (but somewhat unstable) sooner rather than waiting for the jumps to become stable and then introduce them into programs. Fyi - we just completed the 3rd year under this system.

Even doing that, USFS realized that lack of speed was an issue with their ISP skaters. The problem is skaters cannot gain speed later in their careers; rather it needs to be pushed at younger ages. With that in mind, USFS eliminated some of the components (transitions) at the lower IJS levels so that speed could be encouraged Fyi - we just completed our first year under this revised program components system.

So the first class where we will see the benefit of the first round of changes are the current Novices and only if the moved up 1 level each year.

adding in the jump bonus was very smart. For girl's who want to be at the national level in Novice must have at the very least 3-4 triples and national champions have all triples + a triple-triple. Intermediate competitors at the national level have at least a 2a and 1 triple. Champs even have 2-4 triples. Where as before, girls with not even a 2a could medal in Int. I think this will really help us catch up a little with jumping ability. Ting Cui looks very promising in particular, if not uber inconsistent. Alysa Liu is also a talent. 3l-3lo at 11. not bad.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Happy birthday to Sasha Cohen!!