2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[bevybean]

Karen Chen should go back to Requiem for a Dream for the SP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhfQE6hAsY0 . I don't think anyone else is using this music for the Olympics and it's a better selection of high-energy music for her than the wailing Roxanne she is doing right now. Roxanne is too harsh for her skating and isn't working, particularly with the spins at the end. Her new LP will be a good vehicle once she gets more mileage on it, time for a better SP as well. If she wants to keep Roxanne, then I think she needs to cut the vocals and just copy the way Yu-Na Kim did the program in 2007, because that version is really the best you can get.

Agree that Karen's SP isn't working for her! That moment when there's the roar/scream in the music and she shakes her hands above her head bugs me to no end. It is super awkward! In acting class, we would have said she is "projecting" rather than expressing her emotions. I've only watched her SP twice, but each time I noticed that her presentation gets better and better after she passes that moment. Like she needs to move past that awkward moment before she can really start performing.

 

[skylark]

Making the Final is in fact in the same top selection tier as performance at 2018 Nationals. And at this point, all the U.S. ladies who have 2 assignments & thus could make the Final have skated once. Only Ashley is still mathematically in the running. So, achieving the Final would indeed be a big plus. Essentially would make her a lock. Courtney's 4th would give her a slim chance, but with the France open spot going to Schott, there's not much chance of her getting a 2nd assignment unless one of the U.S. ladies WD from Skate America.

What Moxiejan said, in bold, is what we all need to keep in mind when discussing what happens going forward. Ashley didn't just say she hoped to make the GPF. She said it would be good for the USA to have an athlete (implied, female single) going to the GPF. I think she always thinks this way: she gets motivated to do something for her country, as well as for herself. Of course, every skater must try to think only of herself and not compare. A delicate balance.

Here's the interview. She talks about the GPF toward the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxI7dZ7m1sk&feature=youtu.be

 

[mrrice]

Exactly. SS don't really scream at you on tv. But in the rink it is plain as day. I couldn't stand Slutskaya's skating, but her skating SKILLS were evident in person. Sasha was not very fast, had to do twice as many crossovers to get across the ice, and just was a clearly weaker skater.

True.....This is why I hope every skating fan gets the opportunity to see a national or better yet, international event in person. There are differences in skating skills and edge quality that must be seen, and heard to really understand the difference. The first time I really noticed was when I attended the practice session at Worlds in 2001. Todd Eldredge had very deep edges and generated speed with smooth long strokes that appeared effortless. He was cute but, Tim Goebel was quite different. His strokes were shorter, he was much slower, and you could hear the difference between them as they traveled across. Tim's blades had a scraping sound and Todd sounded like Train. Very similar to Patrick Chan who I still think is the best all around skater I have ever seen.

 

[bevybean]

Making the Final is in fact in the same top selection tier as performance at 2018 Nationals. And at this point, all the U.S. ladies who have 2 assignments & thus could make the Final have skated once. Only Ashley is still mathematically in the running. So, achieving the Final would indeed be a big plus. Essentially would make her a lock. Courtney's 4th would give her a slim chance, but with the France open spot going to Schott, there's not much chance of her getting a 2nd assignment unless one of the U.S. ladies WD from Skate America.

Mariah Bell is mathematically in the running as well. She has 5 pts., so if she wins her next GP assignment and others bomb, ... This is so sad I can't even finish typing the thought.

 

[skylark]

Mariah Bell is mathematically in the running as well. She has 5 pts., so if she wins her next GP assignment and others bomb, ... This is so sad I can't even finish typing the thought.

You're right. I remember now that Ashley had a 1st place and a 6th place finish last year, and there was a narrow chance. I'll just say I hope Mariah skates in such a way at her 2nd GP that she gains self-confidence and is pleased with her skating.

 

[bevybean]

You're right. I remember now that Ashley had a 1st place and a 6th place finish last year, and there was a narrow chance. I'll just say I hope Mariah skates in such a way at her 2nd GP that she gains self-confidence and is pleased with her skating.

My thoughts too. Really the best Mariah can reasonably hope for is to be an alternate. And the chances of that are slim!

I wonder if the selectors are going to be looking at who seems to be improving vs who is stagnant or getting worse in terms of "body of work"

 

[skylark]

^^^ I don't know, but that would seems to be entering a gray area. But who knows.

I wonder, does the scoring continue, so that Karen Chen earned 3 points for her 7th place finish?

 

[LiamForeman]

Courtney has great skating skills.

I think Courtney has improved so much this year. HOWEVER, her jumps just kill me (in a bad way). Every landing looks like a 'save', nothing graceful about her jumps. The only times I remember seeing someone with such a bizarre quick landing with overturn is when the jump is underrotated. And correct me if I was hallucinating, but wasn't she attempting 3axel in the last year or two? Her 2A's at SkCan were sooooo low and whippy plus the weird URy glide out. I'd never believe she ever had tried 3A. At least this year she looks like she's becoming something of a performer/skater but I really don't think I'd want her on the Oly Team.

 

[jimini]

HOWEVER, her jumps just kill me (in a bad way). Every landing looks like a 'save', nothing graceful about her jumps. The only times I remember seeing someone with such a bizarre quick landing with overturn is when the jump is underrotated.

Her jump technique does seem to lack control/finesse. It almost seems like every clean landing is sheer luck! She rotates so fast in the air, it seems difficult for her to check out of it with control half the time.

 

[mrrice]

Funny you should compare the two. I remember being at the GPF in 2003 and Sasha was favored to win with her Swan Lake. During practices I couldn't take my eyes off Shizuka, she had so much power and was really INTO the ice, whereas Sasha was a porcelain doll skating on the ice and rather weakly. I was asking my friends "What am I seeing in Shizuka that the judges can't seem to???" Shizuka was clearly the best SKATER out there. I felt vindicated when Shizuka won Worlds a couple months later.

What's weird about that year was that Sasha had lost Michelle at Nationals and to Shizuka at Worlds. Then beat them both by skating perfectly at Marshall's at the end of the year. Granted, it was a fluff event but, had she skated this LP with her SP from Worlds in 2004, I think she would have won Nationals and Worlds that year. Marshall's 2004:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo3hgBV59bc

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think Courtney has improved so much this year. HOWEVER, her jumps just kill me (in a bad way). Every landing looks like a 'save', nothing graceful about her jumps. The only times I remember seeing someone with such a bizarre quick landing with overturn is when the jump is underrotated. And correct me if I was hallucinating, but wasn't she attempting 3axel in the last year or two? Her 2A's at SkCan were sooooo low and whippy plus the weird URy glide out. I'd never believe she ever had tried 3A. At least this year she looks like she's becoming something of a performer/skater but I really don't think I'd want her on the Oly Team.

I don't think she'll make it. She almost beat Ashley in Canada, but the US panel would never carrot as many jumps as Ashley (and Karen) received there. Also, the US panel would not mark Courtney and Karen that close in PCS (although close marks would be justified, IMO). Ashley, Karen, and even Mirai are capable of skating clean "looking" programs, which gets the US Nationals audience going and helps with the marks. Courtney needs to focus on executing cleanly whatever technical content she plans to make it difficult for the judges to mark her out of contention.

 

[R.D.]

This is getting OT but I'm currently planning to head up there for the afternoon portion when they open the event to the public. (Not to see anyone in particular, but to check things out as I've really wanted to go to one of these pre-Olys things in NYC for quite awhile now but either had conflicts or was unaware that it was going on...) I'll report back if I see any skaters.

OT but would like to follow up as promised as I head back from NYC. Saw and got autographs from D&W and met the Shibutanis for the first time

Anyway back to the regularly scheduled program :thumbsup: Wagner was there too but I did not see her during my time there (and AFAIK she was the only one of the figure skaters there who was not a part of the autograph sessions).

Also on my way back I saw that apparently Sasha Cohen had an appearance at the Old Navy store a few blocks down - but the session had concluded a few hours prior while I was at the WinterFest (that’s OK, I already have her autograph and picture - and even if I knew, I wouldn’t have risked missing additional autograph sessions featuring other Olympians just to see her...again).

 

[temadd]

^^^ I don't know, but that would seems to be entering a gray area. But who knows.

I wonder, does the scoring continue, so that Karen Chen earned 3 points for her 7th place finish?

Yes points go up to 8th place

 

[ask]

Funny you should compare the two. I remember being at the GPF in 2003 and Sasha was favored to win with her Swan Lake. During practices I couldn't take my eyes off Shizuka, she had so much power and was really INTO the ice, whereas Sasha was a porcelain doll skating on the ice and rather weakly. I was asking my friends "What am I seeing in Shizuka that the judges can't seem to???" Shizuka was clearly the best SKATER out there. I felt vindicated when Shizuka won Worlds a couple months later.

It is a good skating skills contrast. Both are top skaters skating on the same ice minutes apart. Watching them even on youtube, you can see a huge difference between the two.
Skating skills weren't awarded properly then. And certainly not now. Tales as old as time.

 

[LiamForeman]

Todd Eldredge had very deep edges and generated speed with smooth long strokes that appeared effortless. He was cute but, Tim Goebel was quite different. His strokes were shorter, he was much slower, and you could hear the difference between them as they traveled across. Tim's blades had a scrapping sound and Todd sounded like Train. Very similar to Patrick Chan who I still think is the best all around skater I have ever seen.

YES. I hear great edges as a bass 'hum', it's so identifiable. Timmy's scratchy tenor edges just stood out as being inferior, as much as everything else in his skating besides the jumps which except for rotation were not remarkable at all. I also can hear a great spin versus a not great spin just by the sound. I really don't know if it is innate or these superior skaters just lucked out starting out with excellent coaches who taught them great basics.... Ryan Jahnke is another one who just oozed SS. So did Deanna Stellato, and I'm so glad she's back in the sport.

 

[Moxiejan]

^^^ I don't know, but that would seems to be entering a gray area. But who knows.

I wonder, does the scoring continue, so that Karen Chen earned 3 points for her 7th place finish?

Here is the current table of GP points:
http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2017/gpsladies.htm

Ashley has 11, Mariah has 5, Karen has 4 and Mirai has 0. (Courtney has 9, but no 2nd assignment.)
If Mariah won her next event, she would have 20 points, which rarely is enough to make Top 6. Ashley would need another 3rd to edge her with 22; if they tied at 20, Mariah would win a tiebreaker due to having a first place.

 

[Globetrotter]

YES. I hear great edges as a bass 'hum', it's so identifiable. Timmy's scratchy tenor edges just stood out as being inferior, as much as everything else in his skating besides the jumps which except for rotation were not remarkable at all. I also can hear a great spin versus a not great spin just by the sound. I really don't know if it is innate or these superior skaters just lucked out starting out with excellent coaches who taught them great basics.... Ryan Jahnke is another one who just oozed SS. So did Deanna Stellato, and I'm so glad she's back in the sport.

Oh you are absolutely correct. I had seen Asada (competition - the only live competition I watched in 4CC 2011) and Yuna (exhibition) skate live on separate occasions. Although Yuna was faster, up live, her skating wasn't as smooth and she certainly didn't have Mao's floaty quality although Mao was not quite as fast. The sound though... Mao's skating was definitely more pleasant, Yuna's slightly scratchy. I never had the chance to see and hear PChan skating live (pity) but even on video, he is visibly better in terms of basic stroking. I did see Yuka Sato on a show and goodness, her blades were a very quiet hum and it looked like she was not even scratching the ice. That to me was what started my love of basic SS. I can imagine that PChan will probably look and sound like Yuka in a live skate.

 

[skylark]

What's weird about that year was that Sasha had lost Michelle at Nationals and to Shizuka at Worlds. Then beat them both by skating perfectly at Marshall's at the end of the year. Granted, it was a fluff event but, had she skated this LP with her SP from Worlds in 2004, I think she would have won Nationals and Worlds that year.Marshall's 2004:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo3hgBV59bc

My memory (which could be incomplete) is that Sasha was able to put it together better at fluff events. The pressure was less. I'd like for her to have won worlds once, but to tell the truth, she seems happy with her 3 world medals (2 silver, one bronze) and Olympic silver medal. If she is, I think that's a great attitude. No regrets. Plus her six national medals, one of them the gold.

I watched the video of that SL performance. The most revealing thing to me was seeing Robin Wagner shake her finger at Sasha just before Sasha skated to center ice. :noshake:

 

[skylark]

Here is the current table of GP points:
http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2017/gpsladies.htm

Ashley has 11, Mariah has 5, Karen has 4 and Mirai has 0. (Courtney has 9, but no 2nd assignment.)
If Mariah won her next event, she would have 20 points, which rarely is enough to make Top 6. Ashley would need another 3rd to edge her with 22; if they tied at 20, Mariah would win a tiebreaker due to having a first place.

oh, thank you for that chart. Now that you've showed it to me, I remember from last year, it's very useful to keep track.

Interesting that 7th place finishes (Karen & Valeria so far) get 4 points, after the system uses only odd numbers up to that point. Then, 8th place (Elizabet and Laurine) gets 3 points. But 9th place (Mirai and Anna so far) get zero points. Looks like they'd get either 1 point, or even 2.

 

[R.D.]

My memory (which could be incomplete) is that Sasha was able to put it together better at fluff events. The pressure was less. I'd like for her to have won worlds once, but to tell the truth, she seems happy with her 3 world medals (2 silver, one bronze) and Olympic silver medal. If she is, I think that's a great attitude. No regrets. Plus her six national medals, one of them the gold.

I watched the video of that SL performance. The most revealing thing to me was seeing Robin Wagner shake her finger at Sasha just before Sasha skated to center ice. :noshake:

Cohen was vastly overshadowed by Kwan achievement-wise at the time, but she did very well for herself and fully earned her spot in the USFS HOF.

Today’s crop can only wish they could have the level of success Cohen had - Wagner included.

Although I wonder with the new code of points system, and the current state of USFS, whether we’ll ever have another Cohen or another Hughes again (let alone another MK)...or if another Wagner is the best it’s gonna get.