2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[R.D.]

And just because a program isn't performed to its absolute potential doesn't mean that the audiences won't be dazzled. I remember at worlds in Boston some of the audience stood up for Gracie even though she had one of the weakest lp performances of the night. Most figure skating audiences and fans are very forgiving I think, we all understand that there really are no guarantees in this sport when it comes to how someone will perform in any given competition.

hmm, I took that gesture more as a show of general support for her, rather than those folks being "dazzled" by that skate...

 

[WestVirginia130]

Besides this was weeks ago if not months. Who knows what happened in between.

Rafael's face is just naturally like that, people should just stop trying to make grand discoveries from his neutral expression lol.

for real though I think at this point the only thing that elicits an actual facial reaction from Raf is Nathan adding another quad to his routines

but seriously, I'm sure he's supportive of all his skaters and is out there doing his best to get them where they can be, he's got and has had enough of America's top skaters under his training that he wouldn't be wasting his time letting any of them do something to ruin their chances at contention for top placements

 

[BackSpiral]

I’ll just say this: Wagner sure knows how to keep things.......interesting , get people talking, that’s for sure.

Great for drama and forum fodder, but maybe not so great for her focus?

I'm actually happy for the other ladies that Ashley is keeping the media spotlight on her.

 

[leafygreens]

Ashley might want to consider if USFSA chooses an unheard of underdog to go to the Olympics they could get way bigger, splashier, media attention than from a few advertising spots featuring one skater who has been under-performing and under-training for quite a while now.

I agree with everything else you've said, but Ashley and her fed do not have small endorsements, they have very large endorsements (some shared like BP) that are in all of their interest (money) to put Ashley on the team. If she is on the cusp, they will blaze a way to get her on the team, whether that involves padding her score or fudging with the selection criteria again.

You are not alone in being fed up with the stunts to keep her name out there. The Olympics should be about skill and not a notoriety contest. Even Dave Lease seems annoyed. "The Diva Wagner saga continues" - comes off very irritated at the unceasing drama. Raf insinuated last year that Ashley didn't want to be coached, and wanted to rest on laurels after world silver. He seems exasperated with her in his recent comments.

Nobody cares about the drag queens, the changing programs or the health problems if you're not performing. Change your program if you must but what is with the interviews, explanations and all the talking? Just skate.

 

[evasorange]

hmm, I took that gesture more as a show of general support for her, rather than those folks being "dazzled" by that skate...

yes I agree with that, I guess my general point was that audiences will still be supportive and get something out of the performances even if they are not at peak levels.

 

[skatefan17]

To leafy greens, the reason she doesn't "just skate" is for all the endorsement reasons you listed in your own post. Talking, explaining, and in a way compensating for her less than competitive skates lately distracts from the real issue, whatever that may be. Excuses help explain and fill in the reasoning gaps a normal everyday viewer or casual fan may have. We hardcore fans know it's smoke and mirrors, but Ashley is thinking big picture vs moment to moment. I don't like the excuses much either, but it keeps her relevant and justified in being the frontrunner.

 

[pearly]

For all you Ashley lovers and fans laugh, she also did THIS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmcRAreS30

 

[brightphoton]

Johnny Weir actually apologised for his comments re Ashley's WD from SA on the latest Ice Talk. A lot of good insight:
http://web.icenetwork.com/fans/icetalk

It's kind-of-sort-of nice to see that Johnny kind-of-sort-of own up to his comments about Ashley, around ~47 minute mark.

Johnny Weir: At Skate America, I had a moment where it was very "pot calling the kettle black," when I said on television that Ashley should have muddled through it, or she had withdrawn too soon, especially given my history of having withdrawn from the middle of events before. What I wanted to make clear was that, I misspoke, and apologize to anyone that I offended. There was a lot of outrage, as you can imagine, on Twitter,.

What I wanted to say, before we were getting counted down in a very awkward, let's get to commercial, live-television moment is that ... in my experience, it would have been better for her to push through, or to withdraw beforehand. I've been through it. It's hard and it sucks. You definitely get egg on your face when you do things like that.

 

[andromache]

I agree with everything else you've said, but Ashley and her fed do not have small endorsements, they have very large endorsements (some shared like BP) that are in all of their interest (money) to put Ashley on the team. If she is on the cusp, they will blaze a way to get her on the team, whether that involves padding her score or fudging with the selection criteria again.

You are not alone in being fed up with the stunts to keep her name out there. The Olympics should be about skill and not a notoriety contest. Even Dave Lease seems annoyed. "The Diva Wagner saga continues" - comes off very irritated at the unceasing drama. Raf insinuated last year that Ashley didn't want to be coached, and wanted to rest on laurels after world silver. He seems exasperated with her in his recent comments.

Nobody cares about the drag queens, the changing programs or the health problems if you're not performing. Change your program if you must but what is with the interviews, explanations and all the talking? Just skate.

Again with the insistence that (female) athletes should be seen and not heard .

Unfortunately, Ashley needs to stay in the spotlight if she wants to be able to afford to train. This isn't Russia - skaters pay exorbitant amounts to be able to train and practice; they aren't paid to do so. If you prefer not to listen to Ashley or follow her on social media, no one is making you read or follow her.

I'm disappointed in Ashley's performances this season, but there's no reason to believe she isn't doing what she can to improve. It's possible she's really just at the ceiling of her current abilities due to fundamental weaknesses in her skating and jump technique + age. There's no reason to assume she's lazy.

 

[R.D.]

I agree with everything else you've said, but Ashley and her fed do not have small endorsements, they have very large endorsements (some shared like BP) that are in all of their interest (money) to put Ashley on the team. If she is on the cusp, they will blaze a way to get her on the team, whether that involves padding her score or fudging with the selection criteria again.

But if so....that’s a problem!

Right?

Is the skating world just going to sit back and accept this blatant conflict of interest? And it is that at best... Phil Hersh, you there?




(P.S. Before all the Wagner fans come after me...this is not about her. It’s about wanting a fair, transparent process for all.

 

[LiamForeman]

It's reminiscent of 1998 and Kwan, Lipinski, and Bobek were endorsing Campbells soup. Eyebrow raising for sure to have Bobek included. Fortunately, Kwiatkowski bombed so it wasn't controversial, but one wonders if she had skated clean would she have been denied? I think she would have been denied.

 

[mrrice]

hmm, I took that gesture more as a show of general support for her, rather than those folks being "dazzled" by that skate...

That's exactly what it was. I was at Worlds in 2001 and the crowd did the same thing when Elvis Stojko had a very rough SP. I think he received several 4's in the tech score and if you watch his bow, he says sorry to the crowd......It was kind of sad. Here it is........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gScTqAb4NTg

 

[skylark]

In Jackie Wong's tweet on Monday, he said:

Ashley Wagner will debut her La La Land free skate at #USChamps18 - my full interview on her decision coming up tomorrow. ​

I've looked for the full interview and can't find it. Has anyone else seen it/listened to it? thanks in advance.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It's reminiscent of 1998 and Kwan, Lipinski, and Bobek were endorsing Campbells soup. Eyebrow raising for sure to have Bobek included. Fortunately, Kwiatkowski bombed so it wasn't controversial, but one wonders if she had skated clean would she have been denied? I think she would have been denied.

I remember this and thought it was presumptuous to include Nicole at the time. Nicole was a world medalist and a national champion that quad, but she was also very up-and-down and could have lost to Tonia in any given event. I agree with you that the USFSA would have made it very hard for Tonia to make it on the team.

 

[FSLover17]

Is there a way to fast forward the podcast to get to a certain time because I can't seem to be able to do it?

 

[andromache]

But if so....that’s a problem!

Right?

Is the skating world just going to sit back and accept this blatant conflict of interest? And it is that at best... Phil Hersh, you there?

(P.S. Before all the Wagner fans come after me...this is not about her. It’s about wanting a fair, transparent process for all.

I don't know enough about sports, but I would hazard a guess this is the case for lots of underfunded sports in more countries than the US?

All sports federations have conflicts all over the place. They need to make money. (And even putting money aside, everybody knows everybody, some officials and coaches have friendships, coaches are on the board of USFS, people on committees, etc. Conflicts of interest everywhere.)

That said, I can't find anything about BP being a USFS sponsor or an Ashley Wagner sponsor. (It appears they sponsored her in 2014 - maybe they still are, but idk.)

 

[skylark]

At the very least, this is one heck of a risky slippery slope to trust: that politics could rescue you if you perform poorly at Nationals.... If Ashley doesn't perform well at Nationals, how could she possibly expect a spot?

What makes you think Ashley trusts politics? What makes you think she expects a spot? You're putting lies out there, imagining what's in her head; even though you don't know what she's thinking. You're saying these things on a public forum, apparently trying to influence others to think as you do. I wonder, what's your motivation?

If you've listened to Ashley at all, you'd know that she repeatedly talks about what she's doing to earn her spot. She's doing everything she can. Raf has said her training is all there. She had an infection in her foot/ankle. She followed doctor's orders. She tried her best at SA; then she wisely withdrew because she believed she was risking further injury if she didn't. She's now changed back to the FS she originally planned for the Olympic year because she believes it will give her the inspiration and the edge that she needs.

The question is, why are you so bound and determined to take her down in people's eyes?

I love Ashley but, she shouldn't have any expectation of being held up after the season she's had.

Who says she has any such expectation? What she says indicates the opposite.

"Strong enough for a top 3 finish?" Why is it okay to just make the podium and not aim for a fabulous display of talent, artistry, and technical dazzle? What a snub to fans who've paid a high price for tickets and given support through thick and thin: they're being asked to settle for "quickly put together by the skin of her teeth so she can go to the Olympics" instead of "first-rate representative of the US who is gunning to win."

You're fabricating thoughts and asking people to believe them. The reality is what Andromache said:

We all know Ashley has worked on this routine over the summer - it isn't being thrown together out of nowhere.

:agree:

The audience is an integral part of a competitive performance.

If you'd listened to Ashley at all over the years, you'd know that she's repeatedly said that she's a performer at heart, that her strength as a skater, and her desire, are to create performances that audiences will enjoy and give them their money's worth at any competition or any skating event.

 

[temadd]

Plenty of American elite athletes have been left off Olympic teams despite racking up endorsements and putting their sport all over the airways. A very famous instance involved Dan O'Brien.

Jetting around the country chasing media spots does not make for focused training. No way a national sports association is going to send someone to the Olympics who is undertrained and makes TV appearances and ads a priority over being ready to compete for the country. Especially since there's been no sign yet that she's going to be ready.

At the very least, this is one heck of a risky slippery slope to trust: that politics could rescue you if you perform poorly at Nationals. Politics might just as easily give the spot to someone else. USFSA might decide they want Raf to focus on his male skaters so he doesn't spread himself too thin at the Olympics; a second able-and-ready "Bradie Tennell" may appear from the woodwork, just as Polina did the last time; USFSA might want to send Mirai this time because it sent Ashley last time even though she underperformed.

If Ashley doesn't perform well at Nationals, how could she possibly expect a spot? Out of shape, unpracticed, and no memorable performance for a long while? The international (not to mention national) judges have little exposure to the program? Who would imagine she'd represent the USA well at the Olympics?

Yes, thank you skylark!

If you've listened to Ashley at all this season it is clear that she realizes that she cannot rely on reputation, history, politics or endorsements to get on the Oly team. She has said several times that it is her goal to be national champion and not just get on the podium. Her taking endorsements and media opportunities is not evidence that she is thinking the publicity will get her the Oly spot without working her butt off. She needs money to pay for training, ice time, costumes (already 4 this season), medical bills and life! She is lucky to have gotten endorsements. Give her a break!

I think everyone is speculating on her motivations for every little action. Let's at least wait and see what actually happens at Nats.

 

[R.D.]

I don't know enough about sports, but I would hazard a guess this is the case for lots of underfunded sports in more countries than the US?

All sports federations have conflicts all over the place. They need to make money. (And even putting money aside, everybody knows everybody, some officials and coaches have friendships, coaches are on the board of USFS, people on committees, etc. Conflicts of interest everywhere.)

That said, I can't find anything about BP being a USFS sponsor or an Ashley Wagner sponsor. (It appears they sponsored her in 2014 - maybe they still are, but idk.)

From what I understand, most (if not all) Oly sports feds in the US are non-profit entities - someone correct me if i’m wrong here. Still, like for-profit organizations they still have operating costs, scholarships and salaries to pay and I understand the need to find means of covering those costs.

The issue here is you’ve got a sponsor(s) - Toyota in this case, and in 2014 it was Hilton Hotels - that sponsors not only the federation...but also one of the federation’s top skaters. Clearly there is a conflict of interest here - don’t have to spell it out do I? When you have a sponsor, suddenly it’s in your interest (as an individual/organization) to keep them happy so they keep sponsoring you. If they are also invested in one of your skaters...then is it not in the Fed’s interest to make sure said skater gets as much exposure as possible to maximize sponsor’s investment - in this case, being named to the Olympic team? And, regardless of whether the decision is justified by athlete accomplishments or not - the OPTICS look bad. They are poor. This is what happened in 2014. If USFS wants to not raise further suspicion - don’t make it appear as if Wagner is getting favorable treatment. That’s it at this point. Best move would be to remove the conflict altogether - terminate the sponsorship...and find someone else. I don’t see them doing that so they just better be mindful of the optics here.

 

[SnowWhite]

Well, to give an example from another sport, Rogers sponsors Tennis Canada and is the name sponsor for their big tournament, the Rogers Cup. Rogers also sponsors Milos Raonic, who's been the top Canadian male tennis player for several years. I've never heard anyone have a problem with that. Though it is a bit different because he gets into major tournaments on his ranking, not by selection for Tennis Canada.

But still, I've seen it happen often enough that an athletes competes at a tournament that they share a sponsor with, or things like that. I think it's pretty common because brands often tie themselves to certain sports.