2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Crossover]

Is Alexei K. going to compete as a Senior at Nationals? I know he's young but, he looks much older than Nathan and Vincent.

He said he didn't consider this Olympics because he didn't get the citizenship yet. I guess he won't compete as a senior at Nationals. He is 17 year old as same as Vincent and one year younger than Nathan. You know skaters of Asian heritage look much younger than Caucasians. Though, Krasnozhon looks much maturer than other Russian skaters in similar ages.

 

[Mrs. P]

He said he didn't consider this Olympics because he didn't get the citizenship yet. I guess he won't compete as a senior at Nationals. He is 17 year old as same as Vincent and one year younger than Nathan. You know skaters of Asian heritage look much younger than Caucasians. Though, Krasnozhon looks much mature than other Russian skaters in similar ages.

He's going to be competing as a senior at nationals.

https://www.ifsmagazine.com/u-s-junior-men-final-showdown/

This will be your first season competing at the senior U.S. Championships. What you hope to achieve?

This year at nationals I would like to skate two clean programs and hopefully place in the top six.

I think that is a realistic goal.

 

[Crossover]

He's going to be competing as a senior at nationals.

https://www.ifsmagazine.com/u-s-junior-men-final-showdown/

Isn't he planning to compete as a junior at Nationals at all like playing double in juniors and seniors? I don't know whether USFS allows this like Russian and Japanese nationals.

 

[Mrs. P]

Isn't he planning to compete as a junior at Nationals at all like playing double in juniors and seniors? I don't know whether USFS allows this like Russian and Japanese nationals.

No junior at nationals. He has done two senior international competitions: Philadelphia, where he placed 4th, and Tallinn Trophy, where he won silver.
If he gets top 6, I won't be surprised if he gets 4CC and Jr. Worlds.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Can you really compete as a Senior internationally and still go to Junior Worlds? Why did I think they changed that rule :scratch:

 

[Tavi...]

Oh the irony.

Phil Hersh’s latest thoughts on quads:

“At the risk of putting a regulator on progress and on pushing the envelope, motivations for elite athletes in any sport, limiting the number of quad attempts (three in the free skate? one in the short program?) would seem a place to start. It is time to rein in a quad revolution that has accelerated at a dizzying pace, in both attempts and splats, since the 2014 Olympics.”

Adam and Misha Ge are currently in his good graces.

http://www.globetrottingbyphilipher...ess-on-its-hands-and-knees-and-butts-olympics

 

[Mrs. P]

Can you really compete as a Senior internationally and still go to Junior Worlds? Why did I think they changed that rule :scratch:

There was a proposal, but it didn't pass. They did change it so you can't do senior and junior Grand Prix at the same time.

 

[ice coverage]

Oh the irony.

Phil Hersh’s latest thoughts on quads:

“At the risk of putting a regulator on progress and on pushing the envelope, motivations for elite athletes in any sport, limiting the number of quad attempts (three in the free skate? one in the short program?) would seem a place to start. It is time to rein in a quad revolution that has accelerated at a dizzying pace, in both attempts and splats, since the 2014 Olympics.”

Adam and Misha Ge are currently in his good graces.

http://www.globetrottingbyphilipher...ess-on-its-hands-and-knees-and-butts-olympics

I don't see irony.

It is nothing new for Phil to value Adam's, Misha's, Jason's skating and performance quality.

Phil has been clear in noting that under the current scoring system, there are sufficient men capable of multiple quads to keep those without a good quad off the podium at worlds.
So yes, he keeps tabs on Adam's and Jason's quads.

But has Phil been a cheerleader for the scoring system that gives multi-quad men a big advantage?? I don't think so?

 

[karne]

Can you really compete as a Senior internationally and still go to Junior Worlds? Why did I think they changed that rule :scratch:

You mean you missed me screaming about Katia and Harley all the time?


I think we're looking at Chen + top two non-Chen at Nationals.

My fingers are crossed that those two are Max and Jason.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

There was a proposal, but it didn't pass. They did change it so you can't do senior and junior Grand Prix at the same time.

Wait, I thought u could compete Internationally as a senior ( say, Golden Spin or Finlandia) and still be sent to junior worlds if the federation wants u there.

 

[Mrs. P]

Wait, I thought u could compete Internationally as a senior ( say, Golden Spin or Finlandia) and still be sent to junior worlds if the federation wants u there.

Yes you can. There was a proposal (proposed just prior to Sochi, IIRC) that said that once you competed internationally as a senior, you could not return to the junior ranks. That proposal, however, failed, which is not surprising given there are smaller federations that like sending their skaters to both if they're age eligible.

But there is a separate rule, I forgot when it passed, I think it was in 2013, that you cannot do the Junior Grand Prix and the Senior Grand Prix during the same season. Prior to that rule, Sui/Han had been doing both (and actually made both the JGPF and GPF in the 2010-2011 season and W/D from JGPF), as did the now-defunct pair of Takahashi/Tran.

I don't see irony.

It is nothing new for Phil to value Adam's, Misha's, Jason's skating and performance quality.

Phil has been clear in noting that under the current scoring system, there are sufficient men capable of multiple quads to keep those without a good quad off the podium at worlds.
So yes, he keeps tabs on Adam's and Jason's quads.

But has Phil been a cheerleader for the scoring system that gives multi-quad men a big advantage?? I don't think so?

Phil spends a considerable amount of the article telling Adam to stop attempting the quad Lutz and go for a clean quadless program. I remember he harped on Jason for doing just that because "it was not competitive." Which was absolutely true as far as medal contention, it is a bit ironic/funny he's telling Adam to do the same thing now.

That said, the fact that Jason only gets a cursory mention in this piece is actually pretty noteworthy -- I expected a much more hardline critique of Jason's GP season especially with all the inconsistency on the 3As and the MIA quad. But he has bigger fish to fry, I guess.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't see irony.

It is nothing new for Phil to value Adam's, Misha's, Jason's skating and performance quality.

Phil has been clear in noting that under the current scoring system, there are sufficient men capable of multiple quads to keep those without a good quad off the podium at worlds.

I think Phil has it wrong. We can enjoy Jason's (and other artists') beautiful programs while also acknowledging they don't deserve to win an athletic competition. I'm sure we could find more artistic women if we limited the number of triples they could do, too.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think Phil has it wrong. We can enjoy Jason's (and other artists') beautiful programs while also acknowledging they don't deserve to win an athletic competition. I'm sure we could find more artistic women if we limited the number of triples they could do, too.

I'm not really for limiting quads, but I don't think the ladies are a good comparison. The ladies, for the most part can do all those triples up to the lutz. There might be a lady that leaves out a certain jump, but for the most part, a critical mass of elite lady skaters can do all the triple jumps and they can land them in a program.

We're not quite there with the men yet. Even just attempting multiple-quad programs are definitely not a critical mass thing, and getting clean programs among the cream of the crop who do attempt them is still novel, which is Phil's premise in the first place.

All that said, I think there are other ways to encourage more high-quality program that is somewhere between "ban the quads!" and "accept the splatfast, it's sport!."

I don't think this was your intention, but I also think it's not accurate to also say that Jason's programs are just "beautiful/artistic." Yes, the technical difficulty of the jumps is much less, but he tries to make up for that by doing the jumps with a lot of transitions and multi-directional skating. The choreography of the skating might be so challenging that it's tough for him to do them without quads even. It's kind of a longtail strategy because having these choreography-packed programs does not yield instant results, point wise , but they likely believe this is the best way for him to standout when it all comes together and are willing to sacrifice short-term results for that end game.

 

[college pat]

for me if men can do the quad. do them but limit the number to 1 in combo/or 1 by itself.
limit the quads to what 3-6 .

but the only way to do that is to penalize the skaters/teams who don't do what /when they suppose to do on paper in order of appearance .

no retakes, no redo's if miss/pop/double a jump.
do not add the extra quad/triple/combination in to get the point. scores not so high.

Scores might not be so high, but might limit the number of triple/quad attempts and allow the skater to do it right with the height, speed, flow, how far travel across the ice with the jump, surety of landing, and work on their set up to the jump whether it be a spin, step sequence , etc. The skater would work on whole package instead of just practice jumps.

Limit the quads in the juniors competition. even in the ladies, they haven't fully developed yet. so limit the triple/triples/ quads.

practice yes, in competition no.

one more thing possibly to help -- have the skater land the jump before an international tech caller/panel to see if the judges would mark it properly and not downgrade.

yes i think that the system, but with the carrots, falls, urs , one has to wonder.

it makes think they land jump 20%-50% of time-put in program & hope gets better under competition when all judges,callers keeps calling them
ur;s downgrades. due to reputation or whatever.

 

[Tavi...]

I think Phil has it wrong. We can enjoy Jason's (and other artists') beautiful programs while also acknowledging they don't deserve to win an athletic competition. I'm sure we could find more artistic women if we limited the number of triples they could do, too.

I think it’s a mistake to dismiss Jason’s programs as merely pretty or “artistic” and not “athletic.” He himself said in the Ted Flett interview that he didn’t know if people realize how difficult his programs actually are compared to programs with quads - in his words, “they are very challenging programs.”

ETA I thought this tweet by Skating Protocol was very interesting - 60% of quad passes in the current season got negative GOE, and about half of those (65/135) got the lowest possible (-4) GOE:

https://twitter.com/skatingscores/status/941084139599679489

I’d be interested know (and may ask him) how many different men made successful (+GOE) quad attempts. There are only few guys in the top 20.

 

[ice coverage]

.... Phil spends a considerable amount of the article telling Adam to stop attempting the quad Lutz and go for a clean quadless program. I remember he harped on Jason for doing just that because "it was not competitive." Which was absolutely true as far as medal contention, it is a bit ironic/funny he's telling Adam to do the same thing now ....

So Hersh said that even if Jason were likely to under-rotate the quad or to fall, Jason should keep putting the quad in??

I know that Hersh's ongoing skating coverage makes references to Jason not having a quad.
But that in and of itself does not make the current article ironic to me.

ETA:

And of course, the ongoing coverage of every other skating journalist under the sun -- Zaccardi, Rutherford, Wong, McCarvel, etc. -- also makes references to Jason not having a reliable quad. They're all right there with Hersh on quad-watch for Adam and Jason.​

Hypothetical example:

It would be like me saying to a student at College XYZ that the rule there is that the Dean's List requires a GPA of 3.70, so grades of B+ will not be sufficient (even a B+ in course known to be extra-difficult).
Does not inherently mean that I agree that College XYZ's requirement should be 3.70.
Just means that whether or not I like the rule, I am mindful of what is necessary to meet the threshold.
(Maybe I actually believe that the requirement should be lowered to 3.50.)​

I don't think it is incongruous for Hersh to say that it is not competitive (at the highest levels) to not have a quad and to say also that maybe something should be done to change the rules.

---

... We can enjoy Jason's (and other artists') beautiful programs while also acknowledging they don't deserve to win an athletic competition. ...

As Phil himself has done.

Phil has said in the past that he very much enjoys Jason's (and other artists') programs -- while also acknowledging that [ETA: according to the current scoring system] they don't deserve to win against the toughest fields.

---

ETA:

Forgot to add my Olympic wish-list to the thread, as others have done.

Above all else, Max :luv17:.

Nathan.

Toss-up among Vincent, Adam, Jason.
Among these three, I suppose Adam would have a sliiiiiiiight edge in tugging at my heart-strings.​

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think it’s a mistake to dismiss Jason’s programs as merely pretty or “artistic” and not “athletic.” He himself said in the Ted Flett interview that he didn’t know if people realize how difficult his programs actually are compared to programs with quads - in his words, “they are very challenging programs.”

He is credited for the things he does well, as his PCS scores are among the highest in the field. The second mark really does reflect more than "artistry," as you can't emote your way to good scores in SS and TR, for example.

 

[andromache]

I think it’s a mistake to dismiss Jason’s programs as merely pretty or “artistic” and not “athletic.” He himself said in the Ted Flett interview that he didn’t know if people realize how difficult his programs actually are compared to programs with quads - in his words, “they are very challenging programs.”

I don't think anyone is denying that Jason is athletic and that his programs are athletic - but from a technical standpoint, which is half of the score, they are less difficult.

The sport itself recognizes that "artistic" programs are an inherently athletic challenge - which is why there are artistry-related scores built into an Olympic athletic competition to begin with.

It's telling that TES are "technical" scores, not athletic ones. TES is partially dependent on technique needed to execute elements. Jason might have incredible athletic ability, endurance, etc., but the jump technique needed to attain the highest technical scores in the world? He doesn't.

TES and PCS both require significant athletic ability. That's the point.

(Also, y'all underrate Phil's love of the artistry of the sport. He truly appreciates the artistic programs, while recognizing that all the artistry in the world isn't enough to make-up for technical deficiencies at the highest levels. He was tired of Jason not even trying quads, and grateful for Adam making the attempt. But it's clear that neither man has had success with them. Like most fans, Phil likes seeing athletes that are healthy and that have a chance at actually skating clean.)

 

[mrrice]

I don't think anyone is denying that Jason is athletic and that his programs are athletic - but from a technical standpoint, which is half of the score, they are less difficult.

The sport itself recognizes that "artistic" programs are an inherently athletic challenge - which is why there are artistry-related scores built into an Olympic athletic competition to begin with.

It's telling that TES are "technical" scores, not athletic ones. TES is partially dependent on technique needed to execute elements. Jason might have incredible athletic ability, endurance, etc., but the jump technique needed to attain the highest technical scores in the world? He doesn't.

TES and PCS both require significant athletic ability. That's the point.

(Also, y'all underrate Phil's love of the artistry of the sport. He truly appreciates the artistic programs, while recognizing that all the artistry in the world isn't enough to make-up for technical deficiencies at the highest levels. He was tired of Jason not even trying quads, and grateful for Adam making the attempt. But it's clear that neither man has had success with them. Like most fans, Phil likes seeing athletes that are healthy and that have a chance at actually skating clean.)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If we're going to send a artist over a jumper, I'd send Adam due to his LP alone. It really is one of my favorite programs he's ever done. I don't really give him a ton of credit for his quad lutz because it's not very reliable. However, with Jason not even attempting a quad, he's off my radar... Nathan, Max , and Adam are the skaters I'd send if you asked today. It will all come down to Nationals.....

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If we're going to send a artist over a jumper, I'd send Adam due to his LP alone. It really is one of my favorite programs he's ever done. I don't really give him a ton of credit for his quad lutz because it's not very reliable. However, with Jason not even attempting a quad, he's off my radar... Nathan, Max , and Adam are the skaters I'd send if you asked today. It will all come down to Nationals.....

that amazing Hamilton program deserves to see the Olympics