2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[trains]

So what happens now with the national team? Isn't it usually the top 5 finishers at nationals? Will the USFSA keep Grant and not Jason? Or maybe take both? Aren't there funding issues etc that go along with being on the team? So many questions now.

 

[brightphoton]

then don't have a nationals! just invite those who qualify that criteria to a work camp and pick the final team there like they do in women's gymnastics. "body of work" was suppose to be a one of many considerations not the end all that determined everything, at least that's how they presented it

its crazy to let someone compete and then after its over say, "congrats on your medal, but yeah you never really actually qualified for the team to start with. so thanks for being here anyway!" that's just cruel

Why even bother having a work camp? The US fed already knows who its favorites are. They could have announced the Olympic team back in the beginning of the season in October 2017. Maybe they could have announced the teams in June 2017, so skaters don't even have to bother with summer competitions.

I'm not even kidding with announcing the pool of eligible skaters at the beginning of the season.

Personally I'm not a fan of Grant Hochstein, but I am a huge fan of Caroline Zhang. She once gave an interview and said how much she and Grant sacrifice to even be able to train for figure skating. They are both no longer top skaters and their funding is limited. They have to give lessons and take day-jobs to pay for skating, so they don't get as much ice time as they like. And yet they persevered, possibly in the hopes that if they skated well at Nationals, they could be named to the 4CC team.

It saddens me that Grant and Caroline gave up so much to compete in figure skating, but they were never in the pool of favored skaters, and therefore it never mattered what they did at Nationals. It just doesn't matter that Grant finished 5th with two respectable skates. He is not on the 4CC team, but the 6th place finisher (Jason) and the 9th place finisher (Max) are. If they had known this beforehand, if the US fed were transparent about what their tier system really meant, they could have quit this year, saved themselves the effort and heartache.

 

[qwertyskates]

what are you trying to debate here? Whether Adam is catty and disingenuous? How about it's not your problem what kind of attitude any of these guys have? You have made multiple posts bashing him, implying that he trash talks other competitors, makes rude comments towards everyone but him, etc, without any real reason or proof behind your words. It's not Adam's fault the USFSA decided to send him instead of Ross, the guy who literally randomly pulled out the best skate he's ever had by like a thousand miles which would never hold up internationally

These comments "coronation", "other competitors' mothers on the selection committee", "I'm cute", etc. (please go to the original articles posted earlier) were made by Adam, not me. He is of course entitled to say anything he wants to the press, but you shouldn't be surprised if the public reading the comments will react or form their impressions based on what he said. Perhaps public figures should be careful about what they declare to the public.

At the same time, who's to say if Ross' performance is a fluke and not actual improvement? To me and many others, his jumps look confident, solid, and his transitions are amazing, deserving of an Olympic berth if not, at least World's.

Finally, there will be those who "get" that it would be, hypothetically, in poor taste for Karen, who benefited from judges awarding Ashley lower PCS (unjustly according to Ashley), to congratulate Ashley on her fine performance (thus deserving of higher PCS), knowing that it would make Ashley feel worse coming from the direct beneficiary of the "injustice" (according to Ashley) etc...because it's rubbing salt into Ashley's wounds...fortunately, Karen did no such gauche deeds.

Do I even need to explain these tenets of basic etiquette? I guess you either "get" it or you don't, but it's best for Adam to keep quiet for now and spare either Ross or his coach of his "good intentions". :sarcasm:

 

[andromache]

1. Adam is the obvious choice for the Olympic team based on body of work. He made it to GPF two seasons in a row, and he's by far the safest choice for a team LP - I can't imagine they will have Nathan skate both programs, and putting your best foot forward is more important in the SP than the LP, with how the team format works.

2. Ross versus Vincent is trickier, because Vincent has a much weaker body of work than Adam, but somewhat stronger than Ross (though Ross does receive higher PCS internationally than Vincent). I bet if Ross was 17 years old, USFS would've just gone with him. They care about ~the future~ even though it's not a part of the criteria. IMO, Nationals should outweigh a slightly better body of work, which is what Vincent has. But they went for the youth in ladies and they went for the youth here.

3. Ross versus Jason - sure, Jason obviously has the better body of work, but Ross beat him here by a lot, not just a tiny bit. And not only body of work should be taken into account, but overall trajectory. Jason has declined from competition to competition. Ross has improved (though granted he has had fewer competitions this season). Like, I'm all for body of work justifications and I think just taking the top 3 at Nationals probably isn't always a good thing, but Nationals should matter at least somewhat! What if Ross beats Jason again at 4CCs?? Like....Nationals should matter a little bit.

4. Speaking of Nationals mattering - Grant wuzrobbed of that 4CCs spot. Max has a better body of work, but it's not, like, that much better. Plus, this is the second year in a row Grant has beaten Max at Nationals.

At what point does Nationals matter or not matter? When do we allow someone with a breakout skate the opportunity to continue their success? At some point, struggling "favorites" like Jason (less-so Jason, he did great at Worlds last year, after all) and Max should be sent a message - not that they are no longer wanted, but that they might need to make some drastic changes in order to see the improvement in their skating that will get them an improvement in results.

I know it's kind of a reverse situation, but when Mirai was dumped for Ashley in 2014, the message to Mirai was clear - and it motivated her! Look at the skater she is now compared to 4 years ago. Heck, Ashley has said herself that if she made the Olympic team in 2010, she probably would've retired afterwards - not making that team pushed her and made her a better skater....like, way better.

Nationals and body of work should BOTH matter - I guess I'm just of the opinion that if your body of work is an occasional GP event medal, it shouldn't matter THAT much, because you haven't proved you're capable of repeat successes internationally. Ashley's bronze at Skate Canada and her overall track record didn't trump Bradie, because that would be ridiculous! Ashley's body of work (which is basically superior to Mirai's in every way) didn't beat out Mirai, either. As it shouldn't have! If your body of work doesn't include earning a trip to the GPF, then it shouldn't matter, IMO.

The scales have tipped a little further toward body of work than they should've, IMO. It really shows in the men's alternates and 4CCs team.

 

[andromache]

Finally, there will be those who "get" that it would be in poor taste for Karen, who benefited from judges awarding Ashley lower PCS (unjustly according to Ashley), to congratulate Ashley on her fine performance (thus deserving of higher PCS), knowing that it would make Ashley feel worse coming from the direct beneficiary of the "injustice" (according to Ashley) etc...because it's rubbing salt into Ashley's wounds...

Do I even need to explain these tenets of basic etiquette? I guess you either "get" it or you don't, but it's best for Adam to keep quiet for now and spare either Ross or his coach of his "good intentions". :sarcasm:

This is ridiculous. These skaters have all known each other for years - and I think a lot of them even really like each other. It is NOT in poor taste to sympathize with your competitor, or to congratulate them, or whatever. Plus, it's not like Karen or Ashley or Ross or Adam as human beings have anything to do with how they are scored or what USFS's agenda is. Ashley and Ross are both rational, decent enough people to know that. Karen and Adam are both decent enough people to offer whatever words of comfort and recognition to their FRIENDS. Adam and Ross have risen in the ranks together for years, and both understand being middling, struggling guys trying to prove themselves. You don't think there is EMPATHY there? Meanwhile, Karen probably admires and looks up to Ashley as a role model! Of course she admires Ashley's performance!

Assuming the worst of these people going through emotionally complicated and fraught situations is just nasty and unnecessary.

 

[Mrs. P]

^ I'd say Jason and Max are both intrinsically motivated, the alternate spots are nice, but I doubt they're sitting here thinking they can rest in their laurels. I'd imagine both are plenty disappointed by the performances.

My preference is straight Nationals results, but if they really wanted BOW decisions, I think it would have made more sense to give Jason first alternate to Worlds (if they were that insistent on it) as acknowledgment for earning that third spot and Ross be first alternate to Olympics and be given a Worlds spot. I feel bad for Jason and Max cause they are not making the decisions.

Honestly they are better off to perhaps be more explicit that Nationals is a separate competition (with its own merits and awards) and that the selection process is not intrisntically tied to Nationals and is a complexly separate process.

 

[qwertyskates]

It has been debated elsewhere but I find that Adam's BOW isn't significant enough (at say Nathan's level) to merit bumping off Ross, though he might have a case to bump off Vincent (that is another debate). He doesn't have a quad, and his programs aren't as intricate as Ross', lacking the transitions and wow details that make Ross' LP quite a stunner.

In the end, neither Adam nor Vincent stand a chance to get on the Olympic podium bar some unimaginable catastrophe befalling Yuzu, Shoma, Patrick, Nathan, Kolyada, Javier, Jin, etc, the international top flight.

Adam's Nationals performance shows clearly that he can also lose his focus and perform poorly under stress, and Ross is in such good shape that he can repeat the same performance at the Olympics.

Frankly, Ross has been so badly mistreated, not even 1st alternate, that it leaves a bad taste for many, whether they support his right to go to the Olympics.

 

[qwertyskates]

^ I'd say Jason and Max are both intrinsically motivated, the alternate spots are nice, but I doubt they're sitting here thinking they can rest in their laurels. I'd imagine both are plenty disappointed by the performances.

I think it would have made more sense to give Jason first alternate to Worlds (if they were that insistent on it) and Ross be first alternate to Olympics and be given a Worlds spot. I feel bad for Jason and Max cause they are not making the decisions.

Honestly they are better off to perhaps be more explicit that Nationals is a separate competition (with its own merits and awards) and that the selection process is not intrisntically tied to Nationals and is a complexly separate process.

At least I hope that Jason will not be texting Ross that he's proud that Ross finally skated silver after such a lacking in BOW and thanking him for being happy that Jason got 1st alternate.

 

[qwertyskates]

This is ridiculous. These skaters have all known each other for years - and I think a lot of them even really like each other. It is NOT in poor taste to sympathize with your competitor, or to congratulate them, or whatever. Plus, it's not like Karen or Ashley or Ross or Adam as human beings have anything to do with how they are scored or what USFS's agenda is. Ashley and Ross are both rational, decent enough people to know that. Karen and Adam are both decent enough people to offer whatever words of comfort and recognition to their FRIENDS. Adam and Ross have risen in the ranks together for years, and both understand being middling, struggling guys trying to prove themselves. You don't think there is EMPATHY there? Meanwhile, Karen probably admires and looks up to Ashley as a role model! Of course she admires Ashley's performance!

Assuming the worst of these people going through emotionally complicated and fraught situations is just nasty and unnecessary.

I assume only from what I read in the public statements of Adam's, ok? Perhaps some of us "get" it that certain types of statements are inappropriate, eg. "competitors' mothers (Ross'?) not on the selection committee", and some just don't get how it is extremely poor taste to hint at the type of "connections haggling" behind the scenes.

The effects of this have been devastating to Ross and his coach, this much is apparent. Ashley has made it clear she feels unjustly treated. The beneficiaries of these "unjust" decisions (in the eyes of team Ross and team Ashley) should just be careful about further statements they make to them and the public. I'm sure both Ross and Ashley would happily trade such "proud of you" sentiments for what they really want, sacrificed and worked so hard for - the coveted berth at the Olympics.

 

[andromache]

I assume only from what I read in the public statements of Adam's, ok? Perhaps some of us "get" it that certain types of statements are inappropriate, eg. "competitors' mothers (Ross'?) not on the selection committee", and some of us just don't get how it is extremely poor taste to hint at the type of "connections haggling" behind the scenes.

Adam said all that BEFORE the event - he probably expected to easily come in the top 3 because he is so consistent. What he said was wrong, especially in hindsight. He went a little too far in projecting his confidence, probably because of old insecurities. That doesn't mean he is trying to be catty to Ross or that he and Ross have a bad relationship. Of COURSE you congratulate your friend on having the performance of their life.

You obviously have a chip on your shoulder about Adam, so this isn't really worth the argument anymore.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Ugh...I never want to hear the term Body of Work ever again!! :curse:

 

[qwertyskates]

You can attack me any way you want as having a chip about Adam, but it is clear as day there are just some things neither Adam nor any skater should say and do. There is also a "BOW" of comments, thoughts expressed, from any public figure, from Trump to Kanye to Ashley or Adam that shape public opinion of them. It is beholden on public figures to understand this dynamic and conduct themselves accordingly.

There is a difference between "Hey man, you did great!" and "Hey man, I'm proud of you!". If you don't get it, then you don't.

Clue: it's in the pronoun "You" vs "I"

 

[andromache]

^ I'd say Jason and Max are both intrinsically motivated, the alternate spots are nice, but I doubt they're sitting here thinking they can rest in their laurels. I'd imagine both are plenty disappointed by the performances.

I think all of these athletes are intrinsically motivated, and I didn't mean to imply that Jason and Max are thinking they can rest on their laurels. But PCS judging and team decisions undoubtedly send a message. Ashley got her message loud and clear after she saw her PCS and learned she wasn't going to make the team. Ross was sent a message, as was Grant. (I know Grant planned on retiring so it probably doesn't matter in the long run for him - Ashley probably did as well, not sure about Ross). Realizing how your federation views you has a mental impact, no matter how intrinsically motivated you are.

 

[andromache]

You can attack me any way you want as having a chip about Adam, but it is clear as day there are just some things neither Adam nor any skater should say and do. There is also a "BOW" of comments, thoughts expressed, from any public figure, from Trump to Kanye to Ashley or Adam that shape public opinion of them. It is beholden on public figures to understand this dynamic and conduct themselves accordingly.

Sorry, I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to athletes unused to this level of public scrutiny (they only get it every four years, after all) dealing with the most stressful time in their lives. I think they're all good people with empathy for their competitors who are trying to deal with their interpersonal relationships and the media as best as they can, and maybe the worst thing about Adam is that he's trying a little too hard to give sassy soundbytes that will get him some attention. I assume he's learned his lesson after this experience.

 

[soogar]

Lol, this is not even funny. Ross delivered just this one time in this season and his previous one wasn't also good. Adam absolutely deserves to go.

I agree and watching the Ross skate, it was great that he had a clean skate but his jumps were a little wild and he didn't have the security that Adam had on the elements that he did complete.

Adam had a solid season and it is a shame that nerves got to him. I agree with his placement onto the Olympic team. He looked very fit and well prepared with his programs and content. I think it was a different situation with Ashley Wagner.

 

[qwertyskates]

Sorry, I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to athletes unused to this level of public scrutiny (they only get it every four years, after all) dealing with the most stressful time in their lives. I think they're all good people with empathy for their competitors who are trying to deal with their interpersonal relationships and the media as best as they can, and maybe the worst thing about Adam is that he's trying a little too hard to give sassy soundbytes that will get him some attention. I assume he's learned his lesson after this experience.

Then I would politely ask you to refrain from accusing me of "a chip on my shoulder about Adam" etc. I would think the same of any other skater who made such "sassy" comments.

Final request to Team Adam, Adam got Olympics and World's, Adam 2: Ross 0. A little extra sensitivity to Team Ross is not too much to ask.

 

[soogar]

It kinda is! I'm seeing it being passed around by non-skating fans and most of them think Tara and Johnny are completely clueless and out-of-touch, which makes it even better.

Yeah, that was embarrassing commentary and "Turn Down for What" isn't even a new song. I'm older than those two and I was like, that song is 5 years old (2013 release date).

 

[Mrs. P]

I think all of these athletes are intrinsically motivated, and I didn't mean to imply that Jason and Max are thinking they can rest on their laurels. But PCS judging and team decisions undoubtedly send a message. Ashley got her message loud and clear after she saw her PCS and learned she wasn't going to make the team. Ross was sent a message, as was Grant. (I know Grant planned on retiring so it probably doesn't matter in the long run for him - Ashley probably did as well, not sure about Ross). Realizing how your federation views you has a mental impact, no matter how intrinsically motivated you are.

So if you're Jason, what do you do? Do you go to USFS and say "this is unfair, give the the first alternate spot to Ross?"

I feel like Jason and Ashley are very different cases. Ashley has clearly peaked at 2016 Worlds and turned in subpart performances since then, especially at Worlds, which could have endangered the third spot. Jason did pretty much all he can -- even amid recovering from a stress fracture -- to help get that third spot. While Jason had a so-so fall, he still won a silver medal at SC with solid (if not perfect) skates, made GPF and had managed to get a season's best that was in the top 10 -- Ashley did one of the three.

In the end, i dislike the dumpage skaters get for such decisions, which they have no control of. Really USFS has done a disservice to Jason because they didn't even bothered to explain to ANYBODY why he got the alternate spot and basically did nothing to prevent the amount of trashing he's getting (and Max too to some extent) on social media and elsewhere. As a fan, I'd rather they didn't bother and just went with nationals results.

 

[andromache]

So if you're Jason, what do you do? Do you go to USFS and say "this is unfair, give the the first alternate spot to Ross?"

In the end, i dislike the dumpage skaters get for such decisions, which they have no control of. Really USFS has done a disservice to Jason because they didn't even bothered to explain to ANYBODY why he got the alternate spot and allowed people to trash them on social media and elsewhere.

Of course not. I also don't think I have personally trashed Jason or Max or ANY of the athletes involved in these controversial decisions. I am simply explaining why I disagree with USFS's decisions.

(I also realize that Jason and Ashley's situations are different - I only brought her up as an example of how USFS decisions do indeed send messages, and in this case, I disagree with the message that USFS is giving to Jason and Max, and the rather different message that USFS is giving to Ross and Grant.

I love Ashley, and I'm gutted we won't see her at the Olympics...but I get it, even if I don't like it. Still, the amount of hate that both she and Bradie are getting is RIDICULOUS. I tend to be more invested in the ladies than men, and somehow both Bradie and Ashley are being made out as villains by skating fans. I get it. It sucks.)

ETA: Prior to this weekend, I would have never described myself as a Ross Miner fan, fwiw. I watched him perform at Nationals year after year, where he was just kind of "meh" for me (I rarely like Queen in skating, and the only Billy Joel song I like is Piano Man), and while he seemed like a nice guy, ROss just never had the it factor for me, plus his performances were fairly lackluster in comparison to some of the other guys. But I found myself totally ubering for Ross Miner after his phenomenal LP!!! It's just sad that things had to happen this way, and no skaters should be blamed for it.

 

[GGFan]

So if you're Jason, what do you do? Do you go to USFS and say "this is unfair, give the the first alternate spot to Ross?"

I feel like Jason and Ashley are very different cases. Ashley has clearly peaked at 2016 Worlds and turned in subpart performances since then, especially at Worlds, which could have endangered the third spot. Jason did pretty much all he can -- even amid recovering from a stress fracture -- to help get that third spot. While Jason had a so-so fall, he still won a silver medal at SC with solid (if not perfect) skates, made GPF and had managed to get a season's best that was in the top 10 -- Ashley did one of the three.

In the end, i dislike the dumpage skaters get for such decisions, which they have no control of. Really USFS has done a disservice to Jason because they didn't even bothered to explain to ANYBODY why he got the alternate spot and basically did nothing to prevent the amount of trashing he's getting (and Max too to some extent) on social media and elsewhere. As a fan, I'd rather they didn't bother and just went with nationals results.

Jason has no part to play in the decisions that were made. His job is to skate, plain and simple. USFS put a lot of people in bad positions by the way this entire system and selection process were handled. :noshake: