Oddly, Olympics judging can sometimes be more lenient than the worlds.
2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced
- Thread starter gsk8
- Start date
Oddly, Olympics judging can sometimes be more lenient than the worlds.
Last paragraph of Ross' bio.
Ross Miner also has the dubious honor of having his name being eponymous-tomised in the Unofficial Lexicon of Figure Skating Slangs. A skater who is miner-ed means the bumping off of an age-eligible Nationals silver medallist for a skater that was placed lower. For the same occurrence to a bronze medallist, please refer to Mirai Nagasu.
I think Phil Hersch has a very good idea here:
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/07/264386954
Basically, go with body of work, but quantify it so it is more clear and consistent.
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/07/264386954
Basically, go with body of work, but quantify it so it is more clear and consistent.
They could have removed the silver medallist podium and let him stand at the same spot but on ground level because he is with the peasants, not with the Olympians. Poor Ross.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Well it's a welcome change from last time the way the Russian man was selected without going to Euros. :sarcasm:
And yeah duking it out at 4CC is fair but let's not pretend that this criteria has been out for a while and every Olympic cycle the team takes body of work and multiple competitions into consideration.
This isn't springing on somebody. Anyone who has read the rules and knows about the criteria knows that they have practically no shot if they haven't met any criteria so far and there are guys with multiple criteria. But they can still compete. Like Dolensky and Miner would have known going into Nationals that they didn't have any selection criteria but they still compete to make the national team and get opportunities.
For example Ross can now go to 4CC and boost his World ranking. There are reasons people go to Nationals other than to make the Olympic team. It's also to make the National team and just do the best you can. But everyone should know that only a few people are in contention for the team based on an ongoing process and not a singular Cinderella moment.
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- Nov 12, 2013
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- Nov 12, 2013
Then how do you explain why Ross' coach seemed shocked and explicitly stated that they "wasted" all the time, efforts, funds, hotels, air tickets etc. if it is *this* clear? They must surely be within the insider skating circle? There seems to be a mistaken impression among skaters like Ross, Grant, Dolensky, etc. that they had a chance. Did any officials inform them prior to Nationals that even if they made it to the podium they wouldn't be considered?
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- Jan 25, 2013
The criteria is set that it's multiple factors. Based on this it depends on other factors that aren't predetermined like where your competitors place.
What these competitors have done throughout the past 2 seasons matters. If his coach wants to see it as a waste that's on them but a coach who has noted that other guys have had a better BOW should be telling a skater like Miner, Hochstein, Dolensky that they're going to Nationals to do their best first and foremost and not have a positive experience contingent on making the team - which is based on many factors that your skater has not fulfilled. If they are shocked - well, yeah, they would be if they neglected to acknowledge the other competitions that factor into the final decision.
Nationals is an important factor but evidently doesn't outweigh the slew of other competitions.
What I think happens is that the committee deliberates... they don't input scores and placements into a computer that spits out an algorithm. They weigh pros and cons, and look at a variety of things.
First and foremost would be who are the men most likely to compete well internationally at the moment (based on the current and last season): Chen, Rippon and Brown have demonstrated that. Zhou and Aaron to a lesser extent. Hochstein/Miner/Dolensky to a much lesser extent.
What was the competition like - was it an obvious top 3? Was 0.68 a high enough margin for Miner to overcome Zhou having a better international season?
Who has the greatest potential for the best placements in the Olympics? Who has landed quads - and if they have landed them, how consistently -- and if they can't land them do they have artistry to make up for it? Who presents the biggest risk? Chen is already our podium hope - do we care where the other guys end up? Do we care about entries in the Worlds after the Olympics or is it okay if we send someone who isn't a sure shot because they placed well at one competition? Was it a one-off and if it was does it matter?
There are a ton of criteria and discussion that probably happens beyond the criteria given out. I don't think fairness is high on their list so much as sending their likely best competitors with a large sample size of competitions instead of assessing based on one.
As far as thinking you have a chance - US Nationals is a criteria, and the "top criteria" in terms of importance. But hypothetically that could mean US nats is 10% and everything else is 9.5% weighting for all we know. It's meant to be deliberately vague to make it seems like anyone competing at Nationals can have a shot. Obviously it's not the case the past few cycles with Mirai in 2014 and Ross in 2018. It's not necessarily right - but it's nothing new.
I think that is a too long time because things may change. Skaters may have done well earlier but gone downhill gradually later, so to speak. It would be clearer if only the Olympic season counts. There are lots of other competitions if somebody does not qualify for a GP event or qualifies for only one.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Okay. But name one competition within the past year that suggests Ross would do better on the international stage than Vincent. In their past three head to head competitions Vincent has come on top twice, and easily.... and this one (albeit it is most recent) Miner skated his absolute best and beat a multi-error Vincent by just less than a point and required Rippon to have two pops to beat him.
Where was all of this this season?! If Miner had skated like this even ONCE internationally this season, I'm sure he would have had a much better shot. Had he pulled performances like US Nationals consistently he would have had a better body of work.
And I do agree about going downhill. It's a more legit reason against Zhou given his technical has been declining. But the committee must have been like, even with declining tech and four tech calls here Zhou still beat Miner at his absolute best on TES.
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apologize if this has been asked/answered earlier in this thread but I cant help wondering why they have to name the World team so early . Surely they could confirm the national champions as going to both Olympics and worlds but then complete the teams after 4 CC and Olympics. After all there is a long gap between those 2 events and Worlds ? Just curious. Thanks for any insight anybody here can give .
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- Nov 2, 2013
Well, might as well acknowledge that Zhou got around 20+ total PCS more than he should have.
For example, take Finlandia Trophy. There Ross Miner got 6 more PCS than Zhou in FS and over 3 more PCS in the SP. Here Zhou got more PCS than Miner in the SP with a fall, and just 2 less PCS in the FS despite a fall and numerous other ugly errors. And in Finlandia Ross didn't skate anywhere near as well as here.
While he beat Zhou by a point, he really should have beaten him by around 12-15 points via PCS adjustments alone.
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- Feb 27, 2012
Thanks for replying.
I know exactly which Team USA promo you are talking about that has Max and Jason in it. Did not know that it was getting a lot of air play on OC. Glad to hear it.
But ... IMO, I would say that the promo does not do much in the way of promoting Max or anyone else as an individual athlete.
Instead, it promotes the entity/concept of Team USA.
I love both Max and Jason, of course, but in that promo campaign, they were sorta "generic" 2018 hopefuls along with "generic" 2018 hopefuls from other sports (who were not necessarily among the top contenders for 2018 in their sport).
AFAIK, the athletes in that promo campaign are never identified within the promos.
Unless you are already familiar enough with Max or Jason or others to recognize their faces, the promo does not really promote them as individuals.
Would viewers who are not figure skating fans be capable of recognizing who Max is? Probably not very many, IMO. (And again, I love Max.)
And as much as I enjoy seeing Max and Jason in the promo, I am mindful that many (or all??) of the athletes in that campaign live at the OTC in Colorado Springs, where it was shot. (Frequent part-time residents or full-time residents.)
I do not think that Max's selection for the promo suggests that Team USA made an active decision to promote him in that campaign (versus the hypothetical possibility of promoting Adam, for example, in the same campaign).
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- Mar 23, 2014
I wonder how badly Adam, Jason, and Max would have had to skate at Nationals not to be placed ahead of Ross/Grant.
I'm all for body of work, but not to the point where Nationals becomes irrelevant.
Of all the US men, Adam was having, by FAR, the best practices. I have no doubt that was taken into consideration - the committee has to try to parse out when competitive mistakes are due to actual flukes or are recurring issues. I think his only mistakes were on the 4Lz. Plus, he was nailing a LOT of jumps. Everyone else was much more hit-or-miss, at least based on Jackie's recaps.
I'm all for body of work, but not to the point where Nationals becomes irrelevant.
Of all the US men, Adam was having, by FAR, the best practices. I have no doubt that was taken into consideration - the committee has to try to parse out when competitive mistakes are due to actual flukes or are recurring issues. I think his only mistakes were on the 4Lz. Plus, he was nailing a LOT of jumps. Everyone else was much more hit-or-miss, at least based on Jackie's recaps.
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- Feb 27, 2012
No.
No.
The USFS selections in 2014 were non-identical for both men and pairs. Not going to hijack the thread by rehashing further.
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I'm starting to wish that this is what USFS would do, at least during Olympic years. I get that they have to name the Olympic and 4CC teams right away, but they can afford to hold off on Worlds in an Olympic year. Heck, maybe Ross will outskate Jason at 4CCs, but then Jason winds up at Worlds as first alternate? That would be a bummer.
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Thank you so much for the answer.
So, there wasn't actually anything to stop them going for a selection that would suit everybody in these two cases.
I feel even sorrier for the skaters that missed out now.
CaroLiza_fan
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- Apr 1, 2014
Okay, I mean, I understand how skaters would feel when they get bumped. Thinking that your hard work would never pay off because you were never in the Olympic conversation at all. It feels even worse when these skaters moved countries/cities/left family and friends behind to pursue their dream, but even if they skated well, the committee will just pick who they "like."
Well, I must say, in some cases I agree, but in the case of Ross Miner, I don't really see it? This guy had 3 Senior B's and 3 GP events the last two years and not a single medal. Sure, work hard and skate well, but don't do it only at Nationals. Skate well the entire year. That's what I would call the stars aligning, not miraculously doing well in one competition that just happens to be Nationals. I think Bradie Tennell is a good case of someone who was never in the Olympic conversation at all last year. She skated well all year and look where she is? I think USFS was fair here. It's not like Ross didn't have a chance. He didn't take his chance.
Well, I must say, in some cases I agree, but in the case of Ross Miner, I don't really see it? This guy had 3 Senior B's and 3 GP events the last two years and not a single medal. Sure, work hard and skate well, but don't do it only at Nationals. Skate well the entire year. That's what I would call the stars aligning, not miraculously doing well in one competition that just happens to be Nationals. I think Bradie Tennell is a good case of someone who was never in the Olympic conversation at all last year. She skated well all year and look where she is? I think USFS was fair here. It's not like Ross didn't have a chance. He didn't take his chance.
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- May 1, 2015
Here are my calculations on the season 2017-2018
Men US
Score USA National + 2 best scores (Grand Prix/Challengers) = Total (Average)
1- Nathan Chen (315,23+293,79+286,51) = 895,53 (298,51)
2- Adam Rippon (268,34+ 261,99+ 266,45) = 796,78 (265,59)
3- Vincent Zhou (273,83+ 256,66+250,01) = 780,50 (260,17)
4- Jason Brown (253,68+ 261,14+259,88) = 774,70 (258,23)
5- Max Aaron (224,20+ 259,69+261,56) = 745,45 (248,48)
6- Ross Miner (274,51+219,96+233,72) = 728,19 (242,73)
7- Grant Hochstein (255,31+ 216,44+217,52) = 689,27 (229,76)
8- Alexander Johnson (232,62+226,04+218,88) = 677,54 (225,85)
Men US
Score USA National + 2 best scores (Grand Prix/Challengers) = Total (Average)
1- Nathan Chen (315,23+293,79+286,51) = 895,53 (298,51)
2- Adam Rippon (268,34+ 261,99+ 266,45) = 796,78 (265,59)
3- Vincent Zhou (273,83+ 256,66+250,01) = 780,50 (260,17)
4- Jason Brown (253,68+ 261,14+259,88) = 774,70 (258,23)
5- Max Aaron (224,20+ 259,69+261,56) = 745,45 (248,48)
6- Ross Miner (274,51+219,96+233,72) = 728,19 (242,73)
7- Grant Hochstein (255,31+ 216,44+217,52) = 689,27 (229,76)
8- Alexander Johnson (232,62+226,04+218,88) = 677,54 (225,85)
