2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

[ssffww]

I dunno, Miner's coach is quitting this sport in protest over Miner not being named to the Olympic team ....

I would imagine the fact that Mark Mitchell was passed over for the Olympics in 1992 after a third-place finish might also be a factor in his decision to quit. It has to be frustrating to have this happen to you and then years later to one of the skaters you coach.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Honestly, I'm fine with them choosing Adam but the replies I see about Ross and his Coach's feelings towards the decision is just making my blood boil.

While I would not have put Ross on the team, I don't blame him for being disappointed about it. As was the case in the ladies event, there were more than three competitors in the men's event who could have felt they deserved a spot. Some people here act like all of this is very straightforward, but it really isn't.

 

[brightphoton]

There was three slots, NONE of the contenders were Olympic medalists, World Champs, or even 2017 world medalists. Other than Nathan, everyone elses "body of work" is considered insignificant on the international scene. Every skater there deserves a chance at an Olympic dream and deserves to fight for a spot, whether the USFSA honors it or not. Someone like you is not qualified to take other people's dreams and passion lightly/dissmissed them. Cancel yourself ASASP.

Honestly, I'm fine with them choosing Adam but the replies I see about Ross and his Coach's feelings towards the decision is just making my blood boil.

That was true in the old days, but it's different now. It's not enough to skate well at Nationals. You have to skate well at Nationals, and skate well at a fall GP, to receive support from the selection committee

Yeah it would be nice to know the point value of each event, like that Korean man who lost his spot by 3 points. But it's not like that

 

[Shayuki]

Skating well at fall in the GP series seems like such an arbitrary requirement, though. The skaters are aiming to peak at the olympics - It's natural to not be at your best during the GP. In fact, if you are at your best during it, you might already be past your peak when Olympics come around.

I'd prefer it if Nationals was the only qualifier. You have to be able to skate well right then and there, in that one single competition, no matter what. Just like at Olympics, where you can't point back to your grand prix series. If you fail at Olympics, you fail. A real one shot pressure situation should be the qualifier for a real one shot pressure situation.

 

[shiroKJ]

That was true in the old days, but it's different now. It's not enough to skate well at Nationals. You have to skate well at Nationals, and skate well at a fall GP, to receive support from the selection committee

Yeah it would be nice to know the point value of each event, like that Korean man who lost his spot by 3 points. But it's not like that

My point was that some people are speaking as if Ross and his team aren't even ALLOWED to feel any disappointment and anger regarding the decision. Keep in mind, Ross wasn’t competing against multiple world champs with resume's a mile long. There was only one shoe-in and that was Nathan.

 

[brightphoton]

My point was that some people are speaking as if Ross and his team aren't even ALLOWED to feel any disappointment and anger regarding the decision. Keep in mind, Ross wasn’t competing against multiple world champs with resume's a mile long. There was only one shoe-in and that was Nathan.

I agree that no one other than Nathan should be a shoo-in, but look at the Olympic team + alternates
He's the fifth ranked skater, behind even Jason. Whether we like it or not, Ross didn't have a chance. We didn't know this before, but now we do ...

You don't need to win World's or GPF anymore. Our fed now believes results like second to last place at GPF and 10th at worlds is an insurmountable body of work

 

[shiroKJ]

I agree that no one other than Nathan should be a shoo-in, but look at the Olympic team + alternates
He's the fifth ranked skater, behind even Jason. Whether we like it or not, Ross didn't have a chance. We didn't know this before, but not we do ...

You don't need to win World's or GPF anymore. Our fed now believes results like second to last place at GPF and 10th at worlds is an insurmountable body of work

That's the point. His team didn't know that the so called Olympic dream never existed for anyone outside the chosen 5 or 6 skaters. USFS forgot to send out that memo. No one knew this was how it was going to go down. So why shouldn't they be upset? Why can't they be angry? Anyone would be whether they say it out loud or not. That's not being "delusional".

 

[Mrs. P]

That's the point. His team didn't know that the so called Olympic dream never existed for anyone outside the chosen 5 or 6 skaters. USFS forgot to send out that memo. No one knew this was how it was going to go down. So why shouldn't they be upset? Why can't they be angry? Anyone would be whether they say it out loud or not. That's not being "delusional".

This is exactly what I was pointing out in the U.S. men's thread. USFS need to say TO THE VERY DETAIL what was being factored. I understand they don't want to reveal every aspect of the process, but at least enough so it's really clear that Nationals is just ONE competition out of many that are being considered. Yes, while there was a list -- it was just a list. What are media/stakeholders supposed to do with that.

I'd be interested to hear what, if anything, was mentioned at Champs Camp or other monitoring sessions regarding the Olympic criteria. If Mark Mitchell was THAT confused and frustrated, that tells me USFS didn't do their job.

Again, there needs to be regular updates on the top contenders. It doesn't have to be super fancy -- just explaining to people where different people stand. There needs to be extensive press kits, FAQs -- When you're making a dramatic change in the selection process, every detail needs to be explained.

The other issue is that what happened at Nationals had great variability with each man. Nathan was easy -- he won nationals and won all his competitions.

But Vincent? He had a so-so fall -- it's very obvious that his nationals performance is what persuaded them to put him on the team (along with Jr. Worlds), but I think had he not turned in two solid performances at Nationals and place in the top three, he wouldn't be getting on with BOW.

It didn't matter for Ross, Adam or Max. Not for Ross cause it wasn't enough for him to get on the team, not for Adam because it wasn't enough for them to justify not putting him on the team. Max got 4CC and 3rd alternate over several men who beat him at nationals.

Jason was kind of the middle-- he performed so poorly in the FS, they weren't going to officially put him on the team, but the FS disaster wasn't enough for them to override body of work, hence their decision for 1st alternate status.

I think that is kind of frustrating.

 

[brightphoton]

That's the point. His team didn't know that the so called Olympic dream never existed for anyone outside the chosen 5 or 6 skaters. USFS forgot to send out that memo. No one knew this was how it was going to go down. So why shouldn't they be upset? Why can't they be angry? Anyone would be whether they say it out loud or not. That's not being "delusional".

The other poster only meant that in the fall, Ross consistently scored 50 points below one of the chosen 5 or 6 skaters, so it was highly unlikely that Ross would suddenly score more at Nationals.

It's the truth that is worse

Ross did score 60 points better at Nationals and ... you know what happened

 

[Tavi...]

That's the heart of the matter: there is a group of fans that see the two as distinguishable. I'm a very analytical person and I think the analogy falls apart there. 2nd place is different and none of us had seen that happen before. You're jumping over the third place finisher. I'm coming from the standpoint (and Mark seems to be as well) of bumping being something very rare and in those cases you should go after the 3rd place finisher.

Your original post was about it being virtually impossible that Mark did not realize. Your percentage was close to 100%. All I'm saying is that I have a lot more doubt. We saw the criteria but didn't know the weights. Why would Mark be delusional to think there was a chance for Ross to make it with a great performance?

We clearly do see things differently! I really don’t see a huge gap between second and third. Where you say they skipped from second to fifth, I focus on the body of work criteria rather than the relative placements. That’s particularly true in this case, because Adam’s lower score resulted primarily from 2 popped jumps, not from an overall poor performance. I don’t think either of us will be convinced by the other, but I appreciate your thoughts.

Regarding my other post, I can’t quite remember my words, but I guess it would be something like, I find it impossible to believe he didn’t know? I guess I’d qualify that by saying that there was certainly room for doubt, but that’s what questions are for. If you list events in Tiers and Nationals is not in Tier 1 by itself but with two other events, then why would you assume it would trump everything, especially when the accompanying narrative discusses fielding a competitive team (Im past phrasing). I guess everyone doesn’t think the way I do, but I guess I believe that if something’s important to you, you have a responsibility to ask for clarification until you get the information you need. The same way that if you’re flying to a foreign country, you don’t wait until you get to the airport to find out you need a visa, passport, shots. I think it’s entirely possible that MM or someone else could have had questions or difficulty understanding initially. What I don’t understand is why he didn’t persevere until the answers were clear.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Something that needs to be realized by people who think Vincent has a "body of work" over Ross and has scored better than him internationally - Vincent had SEVEN underrotated Quads in international competition this season that were not called. An underrotation call on a Quad results in a loss of about 4 points on average. So these numbers listed earlier:

Zhou's international scores this season: 222.21, 250.01, 256.66 (average: 242.63)

Miner's international scores this season: 219.62, 219.96, 233.72 (average: 224.43)

Zhou's should actually be 28 points less in technical merit, approximately, resulting in an average score that is 9+ points less. That's just the technical score too. How do you think the judges would treat Zhou on the PCS if he was labelled a chronic underrotater? If history is anything to go by, his PCS would drop. So in the end Vincent Zhou's international showing is actually nothing worth considering over Ross. His underrotations were deservedly called out at Nationals and he now has the label of "bad technique" on him, this will follow him into international competition from here on out.

The only thing really worth considering between Ross and Vincent is their showing at Nationals, as neither of them have done anything relevant in international competition. Ross won, skating better than Vincent ever has as a senior. The committee said they wanted to send the team with the highest chance of getting a medal. Ross scoring higher than Vincent ever has means he has shown the greater capability of delivering a competition performance that could possibly reach a medal.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

I wish people ( not necessarily here but on Instagram and twitter ) would stop blaming Adam for this.
Seriously ... do they think Adam has that power to put himself on the team?? Be mad at the UAFSA not the skater. People are saying some pretty nasty stuff. It is just so silly and wrong.

 

[el henry]

I wish people ( not necessarily here but on Instagram and twitter ) would stop blaming Adam for this.
Seriously ... do they think Adam has that power to put himself on the team?? Be mad at the UAFSA not the skater. People are saying some pretty nasty stuff. It is just so silly and wrong.

And not only is it wrong to blame Adam, it is wrong to blame, and to disrespect, Jason.

I will never understand (and this is not directed at you, but in general) oh, well, OK, Adam’s so wonderful I can see him getting the spot over Ross, but Ross behind Jason? Oh, wow, what an insult, what a horror, too much for the soul to bear!

Either *both* Adam and Jason being placed where they are is OK, or *neither* is OK. Saying one choice works, but not the other, makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Either *both* Adam and Jason being placed where they are is OK, or *neither* is OK. Saying one choice works, but not the other, makes absolutely no sense.

No, Adam outskated Jason ALL season long. He also had the best international showing of any guy (besides Nathen Chen of course) last season. Adam actually has the "body of work" to merit his silly flubs at Nationals being discounted. He's shown the ability to score higher than anyone besides Nathan.

 

[jimini]

Skating well at fall in the GP series seems like such an arbitrary requirement, though. The skaters are aiming to peak at the olympics - It's natural to not be at your best during the GP. In fact, if you are at your best during it, you might already be past your peak when Olympics come around.

I'd prefer it if Nationals was the only qualifier. You have to be able to skate well right then and there, in that one single competition, no matter what. Just like at Olympics, where you can't point back to your grand prix series. If you fail at Olympics, you fail. A real one shot pressure situation should be the qualifier for a real one shot pressure situation.

While the Olympics is a one-shot deal, international performance can provide some advantages. Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the start order for the Olympics comes from World ranking (reverse order). Nathan & Adam will have an advantage by going in the last 5-9 skaters.

US Mens' World Ranking (last 3 seasons count including Junior events):
Nathan Chen: #5 with 3,720 points
Jason Brown: #9 with 3,107 points
Adam Rippon: #10 with 3,041 points
Max Aaron: #14 with 2,526 points
Vincent Zhou: #22 with 2,148 points
Grant Hochstein: #28 with 1,868 points
Alexei Krasnozhon: #32 with 1,771 points
Ross Miner: #38 with 1,486 points

 

[gmyers]

It’s so ridiculous to talk about body of work with someone with no medals from worlds or gpf or Olympics! Rippons got nothing

 

[Alifyre]

I think the world rankings point is actually an important one. Unfortunately, skating in early group shoots your scores in the foot. If the Olympics and Worlds are scheduled by world ranking, then the skaters with the better "body of work" are given an actual in-competition advantage during their program by skating later. That is perhaps one of the better arguments I've seen about body of work. Also, reputation scoring is real. A skater with no reputation is not going to magically score into the top 5 if they skate lights out unless the leaders totally bomb, and even then it's iffy. It's important to consider that as well. And Adam definitely has a reputation, even without a world or GPF medal.

 

[Tavi...]

No, Adam outskated Jason ALL season long. He also had the best international showing of any guy (besides Nathen Chen of course) last season. Adam actually has the "body of work" to merit his silly flubs at Nationals being discounted. He's shown the ability to score higher than anyone besides Nathan.

The body of work criteria includes the second half of last season - that is, 4CCs (Tier 2) as well as Worlds (Tier 1). Jason is the only guy besides Nathan to have three Tier 1 competitions, and at the GPF, his much maligned sixth place finish was half a point behind Adam’s in fifth. Whether you think Adam had a stronger season or not, it’s simply not accurate to dismiss Jason’s as not worthy of comment. I’m pretty sure the fact that he was instrumental in helping to get back those 3 spots for Worlds/Olys - as well as his 269+ score there - were not lost on the selection committee.

More to the point, he was no more responsible for the selection than Adam, and it’s getting beyond tiresome to hear him being dissed by those who don’t like Ross being passed over.

 

[moonvine]

I would imagine the fact that Mark Mitchell was passed over for the Olympics in 1992 after a third-place finish might also be a factor in his decision to quit. It has to be frustrating to have this happen to you and then years later to one of the skaters you coach.

Isn't THAT unfair to Ross? Or is Ross quitting also?

 

[fenway3]

There is no translation or rosetta stone for this hot mess

Are you sure about that??? Ever heard of Google Translate and Bing Translator? Well, I just posted the following into USFS Translate, and look what it came up with:

Ross Miner, second alternate, no Olympics or Worlds, what gives?

Response:

We never intended for Doofus to be on the team. And if you really think we crunched out a methodical formula to decide the teams, then we've got some dehydrated water to sell you! We have our chosen few, and if you don't like it, just shed a few tiers and get over it!!!!