2018-2019 Season - New rules

[Spirals for Miles]

For me it would count too. But I'm still surprised this GOE bullet point is such an issue for you - especially since we had it before, even if it got upgraded now. Theoretically speaking: 1.) judges should get some more explanations to this in their seminars, with more examples that are defined and all. 2.) There will be cases were opinions differ, and that is fine - that's why we have 9 judges, the only breaking point is what gkelly said - judges need to apply their "own standard" evenly to all skaters/jumps. And then for a jump everyone agrees on very good height/ice coverage we have someone get full GOE, and in more unclear cases we'd get "middling" PCS with some judges saying yes and some no on that bullet point. Theoretically, I don't see an issue.
Again, I'd defend the importance of that bullet point too - and it's IMO actually the clearest one out of the 3 mentioned. What is good take off? Will that take messy teachnique into account? PR, full blade take off on toe jumps? What's a very good landing? Only needs to be on one foot, or the right edge, or even with good flow out, or does that relate to TR out? And the worst is effortless throughout. And without "effortless throughout" you can't get max GOE either. That's what I'd expect to be much more difficult when it comes to the subjectivity aspect (though again, judges need to be constant in their own judgement, and then that's what we have 9 judges for).

So, the new Bullet points IMO are fine. The old ones weren't bad either. The problem is, as you said, the judging. These new GOE bullet points might very well just change nothing - not that judges were really using them before. The larger scale of GOE coupled with reduced BV is what bothers me to no end though, as it just makes the judges have even more impact on the overall score, and favoritism IMO will weight even harder again. I'm especially annoyed for "lower ranked federation" skaters for example - getting big BV was one of the few ways they could force points. That'll be a lot harder now.

to your second point, it's not fine to me if a skater misses a medal or qualifying for the free because judges can't agree on if a jump is big enough to get GOE...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

to your second point, it's not fine to me if a skater misses a medal or qualifying for the free because judges can't agree on if a jump is big enough to get GOE...

My question with that is why you are singling out this one issue though? Skaters have missed medals or LP qualification for IMO way more questionable reasons: wrong edge/UR calls or overlooked ones, wrong spin/step levels, being held down in GOE compared to others who are propped up in GOE, what looks to be political PCS scoring... I can't personally see why this one specific point of rewarding height/ice coverage is worse.

And what do you mean with "judges can't agree" there? They never do, because there is way too much subjectivity, and that also is a point regarding all possible bullet points. And as long as the range isn't too big - again, I don't see the issue. If one judge gives +5, the other +3 - that's perfectly in line. We are seeing way wider spreads these days with our old system too. I think there was a case of -2 to +2 for the same jump, that kind of stuff is problematic.


Another additional comment to this: if you look at the 6 bullet points, 2 of them actually correlate to PCS areas: musical timing to IN/PE and steps into the jump to TR. Both of them under the current rules are basically double rewarded, whereas the bullet points that are now given more value by being part of the GOE cap are all exclusive to GOE and this one jump IMO. You can say they might influence judges - big jumps or jumps with cleaner landings/better flow out cause someone to give higher PE - but it's not listed as such in the guidelines. So maybe this is also an attempt to seperate GOE and PCS more. Which tbh I'm in favor of.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I think why I don't understand this and keep going back to it is that it's one of the ones you reportedly have to have to "open up" the other bullets. So if a judge thinks it's got acceptable height but not great, it can't get more than +2/+3 but there's no way to define things. It's not the only thing that causes questionable results, but I really don't like the idea of "if you don't have this but have others, the others don't matter"

 

[4everchan]

well.. to me, some jumps were already getting + 3 goe because they were high and had flow... despite not having many of the other bullets... for instance, big quads were getting very high GOE at time without any special entries, exits, arm variation nor musical impact.... so... this just makes it official... judges are allowed to be wowed at an athletic feature... YAY...

 

[skatenewbie]

i think why they choose those 3 as main qualify GOE for other 2 is because that's really the basic things in jump that skater SHOULD have. Good take off, height, flows in and out etc. if the jumps have poor take off it should be deducted even if the jumps have difficult steps before it and having good landings and height. or if it match musical structure and have rippoon but have wobbly landing. i do agree the wording is so ambiguous like how high is good/great height etc. Also without steps / tano / matching with musical cue, it they would get at max +3 which is like ~ +2 in current GOE so its not so near the maximum so im okay with it.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

well.. to me, some jumps were already getting + 3 goe because they were high and had flow... despite not having many of the other bullets... for instance, big quads were getting very high GOE at time without any special entries, exits, arm variation nor musical impact.... so... this just makes it official... judges are allowed to be wowed at an athletic feature... YAY...

No it doesn't? These specific features are necessary to hit +4/+5, but they are not sufficient. You still need to fulfill enough other bullet points to get higher GOEs.

 

[4everchan]

No it doesn't? These specific features are necessary to hit +4/+5, but they are not sufficient. You still need to fulfill enough other bullet points to get higher GOEs.

you do realize that what is in the rulebook is not always applied as is... that's what i referred to...

 

[Rina Rin]

To me, the height of a jump really doesn't matter a whole lot. As long as it's high enough for the skater to comfortably rotate it... I really don't care. A pretty takeoff, a beautiful aerial position, good flow on landing are far more important than jump height. And I'll take a smaller jump with pretty rotation over a higher jump with awkward rotation any day.

Sometimes the height only hinders. Although when the jump turns out, it looks impressive.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

you do realize that what is in the rulebook is not always applied as is... that's what i referred to...

Yes. After all ISU didnt define GOE bullets through the strict rules, but as recommendation for the judging. And there is a difference in nature of those two ways of defining things many are overlooking.

 

[4everchan]

Yes. After all ISU didnt define GOE bullets through the strict rules, but as recommendation for the judging. And there is a difference in nature of those two ways of defining things many are overlooking.

exactly.... we can talk about the bullets all we want but in the end... until a clearer system is applied, people will come on here and say,

this jump deserved +5 .... how come judges didn't do it?

and they will bring an entire analysis of the competition and change placements and medals around based on their own GOE and PCS, give UR to some, edge calls to others

 

[halulupu]

And there I was, thinking they‘d put some restrictions on backloading. Apparently to get more „art“. Now they‘re doing what exaxtly? Cut down 30 seconds in the men and pairs FP so that there‘s even less time for choreography? Good god. Even a ban to backloading would have been a better idea than this.

I‘m not very positive all these bullet points will actually change anything. So, what, you‘re just going to have Satoko get no GOES at all because her jumps are tiny? Figure skating is and was always highly subjective. „Good height“ is like no indicator at all for a good jump. Because, you know, there are fast rotators who have small jumps (Satoko, Evgenia to an extent) but also ones who jump high but don‘t rotate that fast (Kaetlyn, Daleman). So, do we really want to say that one style is superior to the other? I‘m also a bit afraid that this is going to lead to even more controversy. As one judge might find a jump „effortless throughout“ whereas the other doesn‘t, for what reason it may be. So, how are these changes going to affect anything? Or even make figure skating more artistic like they said what these new rules would be about? If anyone could explain the logic behind this, I‘d appreciate it, because right now, frankly, I‘m not getting it. At all.

With the exception of hardcore satoko fans an overwhelming majority does actually think that e. g kaetlyn, delmanes jumping style is clearly superior than satokos. Not yet fully convinced the changes will lead to this distinction (too much politicking still), but if they do I definitely welcome them!

 

[Spirals for Miles]

That's true, but Zagitova's jumps are a lot better than Daleman's, for example, even though Daleman gets more height. Just look at 3Lz-3Lo vs. 3T-3T

 

[Ziotic]

That's true, but Zagitova's jumps are a lot better than Daleman's, for example, even though Daleman gets more height. Just look at 3Lz-3Lo vs. 3T-3T

I think what you mean is they are technically harder.

Alina has never gotten +3 across the board for that element. Gabby has on multiple occasions.

So actually Gabby’ combo IS better, just not as difficult.

 

[Osmond4gold]

I think what you mean is they are technically harder.

Alina has never gotten +3 across the board for that element. Gabby has on multiple occasions.

So actually Gabby’ combo IS better, just not as difficult.

Gabby has a natural jumping ability and doesn't just muscle a jump, as some elites do.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I think what you mean is they are technically harder.

Alina has never gotten +3 across the board for that element. Gabby has on multiple occasions.

So actually Gabby’ combo IS better, just not as difficult.

What bullets does Gabby hit?
Great height / distance for sure
Great flow
Effortless throughout
good extension

no delayed rotation / arm variation
no difficult entrance / exit (if her back was arched in the Ina Bauer that'd be different)
no unexpected entry
not usually matched to music

that's a +2... even if it is matched to the music, 5 bullets is still a +2

so the +3s across the board -- why? how?

also, how can one possibly say that Zagitova doesn't have a natural jumping ability and just muscles her jumps? have you seen them?!!

 

[Osmond4gold]

Once again your biases are showing, SfM. Only this time it's anti-Gabby versus Kaetlyn, who is normally your usual target. Let me assure you Gabby's entrance is unique and very difficult. I cannot think of another competitor who attempts or is willing to attempt, such a feat.

 

[Ziotic]

What bullets does Gabby hit?
Great height / distance for sure
Great flow
Effortless throughout
good extension

no delayed rotation / arm variation
no difficult entrance / exit (if her back was arched in the Ina Bauer that'd be different)
no unexpected entry
not usually matched to music

that's a +2... even if it is matched to the music, 5 bullets is still a +2

so the +3s across the board -- why? how?

also, how can one possibly say that Zagitova doesn't have a natural jumping ability and just muscles her jumps? have you seen them?!!

Again, I’m using FACTS to make an argument not an opinion.

On multiple occasions Gabby has received max GOE for the element. Just because you think the entrance is not difficult/unexpected and doesn’t match the music doesn’t make it fact. As the judges have disagreed and award +3 across the board.

Alina’s 3lz3l has never received max GOE.

Personally I find the rotation of the 3L questionable as she pre-rotates and still looks a bit short on landings. I have seen her jumps and I don’t find them special. I would prefer Kaori’s powerful speed and soft landings any day, just to name one example.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

:yawn:

SRSLY??

This thread should be about discussing and analyzing the rules and not bickering fan dramas.

:giveup:

 

[Ziotic]

:yawn:

SRSLY??

This thread should be about discussing and analyzing the rules and not bickering fan dramas.

:giveup:

Agreed!

I think that the new GOE scale would be useful if applied correctly but I doubt it will be.

As they have to hit the first 3 bullets to receive the last two someone like Satoko should never really receive higher than +2 but I’m sure we will see her with higher than that.

I’m also sure Nathan will receive some +4 +5 for his scratchy landings.

More so in pairs we already see throw jumps getting +3 with a two foot landing.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Once again your biases are showing, SfM. Only this time it's anti-Gabby versus Kaetlyn, who is normally your usual target. Let me assure you Gabby's entrance is unique and very difficult. I cannot think of another competitor who attempts or is willing to attempt, such a feat.

Alena Kostornaya, with a wonderfully arched back and beautiful flexibility
Also, I love Gabby and always have. Please don’t tell me who I’m apparently a fan of