2018-2019 Season - New rules

[Yatagarasu]

I'm simply sad if BV of 4A is decreased and there is only a little difference between other quads. Honda said in the last season BV of 15 points on 4A were not enough, there should be about 20. I'm not a skater so I can't imagine, but extra half rotation is extra half rotation, it must be hard for the skaters to do.

There is absolutely no doubt that the 4A is a monster of a jump.

Ask any skater, you won't get a different answer. It is the most difficult quad out there, and to boot, it is a dangerous jump.
Everything else is just hot air that has nothing to do with reality.

That it got a BV that is just one point above the 4Lz is a travesty and orchestrated travesty, and it's really not that difficult to get why it happened. It's just so embarrassing when they downgrade their own sport in such blatant ways for political agenda. Don't think they can get lower than this and that's saying something considering ISU is already digging their way to China.

 

[chopinskate]

All quads should probably have a point added to them, IMO. They're difficult, much more difficult than triples. If they wanted to value artistry more, perhaps they could have increased the BV/SoV of spins and footwork. A level four should probably be getting 6.0 for a spin and footwork for BV, and then around 9 points for a +5 quality element. And a nice throwback to the old system, too!

And, yeah, 4A is definitely more difficult than any quad. Doesn't matter if it's the first quad you're practising or last. If nothing else, that gap between the 4Lz and the 4A should have remained (or should have been increased).

 

[Yatagarasu]

And, yeah, 4A is definitely more difficult than any quad. Doesn't matter if it's the first quad you're practising or last. If nothing else, that gap between the 4Lz and the 4A should have remained (or should have been increased).

That's just it. A 4A is a 4A, with all the difficulty this jumps brings, and it's nonsense to think this difficulty is somehow devalued by some hypothetical person suddenly being able to jump it first. Even if this monster of a skater, in a good way, existed, it would still remain the most difficult quad, because facts are facts, and they aren't going to suddenly change because of the existence of this outlier.

The gap should have been increased. Instead we got this.

 

[moonkat]

that's not what i said at all.

In the end, when I talk about stats in here, it is very simple : take a bell curve... take the top 50 skaters in the world and you will see where there is a big gap. There is a big gap between the triples and the 3a... and then between the 3a to any of the quads, there is another gap... but then...the sample is so small (and completely non-existing when it comes to the 4a) that there is no point making a distinction in base values more than the one already there.

This is silly. It's like not counting the time of a runner who breaks the record.

 

[chopinskate]

That's just it. A 4A is a 4A, with all the difficulty this jumps brings, and it's nonsense to think this difficulty is somehow devalued by some hypothetical person suddenly being able to jump it first. Even if this monster of a skater, in a good way, existed, it would still remain the most difficult quad, because facts are facts, and they aren't going to suddenly change because of the existence of this outlier.

The gap should have been increased. Instead we got this.

You don't even have to ask skaters if a 4A is the most difficult one, much like you don't have to ask skaters if a 4Lz is more difficult than a 4T. It's simple physics.

Unless the ISU has some secret about the 4A physics that makes it easier that we don't know, I'm not sure what this means.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Psssttt... if you try a 4A a set of magical stairs will appear that you can just walk on to get your rotation... but don't tell anyone other than the ISU....say the skate gods

 

[BillNeal]

ISU doesn't want to see 4A's being attempted. It's obvious when a fall on 4A is worth 1.75 less than a 3A with 0 GOE. Compare that to a fall on 4Lz which is worth 0.15 less than a 3Lz with 0 GOE.

Yes the jump should be more awarded based on its massive difficulty but frankly, with all those injuries of last season and this jump being much more dangerous as others pointed out, I rather not see this jump attempted at the moment. As training and putting a bigger variety of quads in competition is still a new phenomenon that only have occurred in the last few seasons, I would like the skaters and coaches to better adapt to incorporating them without the high rate of injuries before pushing the technical envelope further.

 

[chopinskate]

ISU doesn't want to see 4A's being attempted. It's obvious when a fall on 4A is worth 1.75 less than a 3A with 0 GOE. Compare that to a fall on 4Lz which is worth 0.15 less than a 3Lz with 0 GOE.

Yes the jump should be more awarded based on its massive difficulty but frankly, with all those injuries of last season and this jump being much more dangerous as others pointed out, I rather not see this jump attempted at the moment. As training and putting a bigger variety of quads in competition is still a new phenomenon that only have occurred in the last few seasons, I would like the skaters and coaches to better adapt to incorporating them without the high rate of injuries before pushing the technical envelope further.

Then why not just ban the 4A? They certainly banned the back-flip.

This argument doesn't hold water, because reduced BV might not discourage driven athletes who want their feather in their hats anyway from training and landing it. So when the time comes and they DO land the 4A in the competition, their efforts will be undervalued.

There's just no proven link between reduced BV and not training something.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I rather not see this jump attempted at the moment.

Then they should simply remove the BV from the 4A, if that is the case.

They either have it, and if so, they put the points that reflect the difficulty of the actual jump, or they remove it from the list entirely, by associating it with quints. Skaters will try it (and some have been practicing for a few years now, like Artur Dmitriev Jr) as long as it's there, difficulty or not, if they're set on it.

 

[Shayuki]

Honestly, it'd make so much more sense if 3A was actually 4A and was counted as a quad - Axel becoming the easiest jump with half a revolution less rather than the most difficult jump with half a revolution more. Really, 3A's much closer to the quads than to the other triples anyway.

That way they could just banish 4A as a quint. By what rule is 3.5 rounded to 3 anyway? Certainly not maths.

 

[chopinskate]

Yeah, it's not like in Midori Ito's case where she probably never tried for a 4T in competition because she was already maxing out her technical merit anyway. TES here doesn't have a "real" cap in some sense. So even the 1 point difference won't actually affect anyone from training it. Just ban it if you don't want it.

 

[BillNeal]

So when the time comes and they DO land the 4A in the competition, their efforts will be undervalued.

When that time comes, there would be an outcry to raise the base value of that jump and with supporting visual evidence that the skaters are ready in competition to actually land them, ISU may have more incentive to. Training them and attempting them in competition are on different levels. When that time comes also, ISU may need to start inserting a new table with quint values, as the 4A is the current ceiling to the jumps.

 

[Yatagarasu]

When that time comes, there would be an outcry to raise the base value of that jump

Yeah, which will be a huge comfort for the person who jumped it, and their success remains undervalued for who knows how long, until the ISU drags their posteriors, and for no reason what so ever, because right now, we already know, for a fact, the difficulty of a 4A.

In fact, it wouldn't be even remotely weird for them to wait until the next quad to reset the BV system. How .. convenient.

 

[chopinskate]

When that time comes, there would be an outcry to raise the base value of that jump and with supporting visual evidence that the skaters are ready in competition to actually land them, ISU may have more incentive to. Training them and attempting them in competition are on different levels. When that time comes also, ISU may need to start inserting a new table with quint values, as the 4A is the current ceiling to the jumps.

This doesn't make sense. The reduced BV makes no change to anyone's training regimen for the 4A. It's currently a hallmark of athletic achievement. Landing it in a competition would be a dream for the ones training it. That time might be next season! If a skater lands it for the entire next season, will it be fine to just score them lower for that entire season?

The outcry will begin right after the first senior B competition this skater attends, for instance.

And how does "supporting visual evidence" fit into your argument? You said first it was dangerous and the reduced BV discourages it. So if the ISU sees that the skater attempted and landed it despite their discouragement... What?

 

[BillNeal]

And how does "supporting visual evidence" fit into your argument? You said first it was dangerous and the reduced BV discourages it. So if the ISU sees that the skater attempted and landed it despite their discouragement... What?

As I mentioned in my previous post, the trend to train and land a variety of quads has only begun in the last few years and actually only more prominent in the last two. The skaters and coaches need more time to adapt to this, as seen from the rate of injuries last season. The skaters are not ready and the ISU is trying to slow down technical development at a rate that is more adaptable to the skaters. By discouraging them with the 4A BV, the skaters are more likely to take their time to master the other quads first. When they master the other quads, then they are more up to the challenge of training that 4A if they desire and getting that 4A with a decent success rate first. Once they have that success rate, they will attempt and eventually land it in competition. Now this may take years to develop or never at all for most skaters. The ISU however would like it to be more of a gradual progression than a quick succession of events. And this goes with the other quads too, a 4Lz fall was worth 8.6 and is now worth 5.75. They much rather have a skater showcase a beautiful 3Lz than a 4Lz, if the skater is not ready to land it.

 

[Yatagarasu]

By discouraging them with the 4A BV, the skaters are more likely to take their time to master the other quads first.

Not really.
If they think they have a shot at the 4A they will go for the 4A precisely because of the difficulty, and the status, of it all.

They will just not get properly rewarded for their amazing achievement in case they manage to land it.

And a 4Lz is also not an easy jump either, and we've seen plenty of issues last season. Odd how they aren't trying to deter skaters from jumping that by lowering its BV. I wonder why

 

[chopinskate]

And a 4Lz is also not an easy jump either, and we've seen plenty of issues last season. Odd how they aren't trying to deter skaters from jumping that by lowering its BV. I wonder why

Oh, it's because they have video evidence.

Wow, I sure am glad Boyang came in when the BV was still 13.60! Maybe he would have been discouraged if it were 11.1, and not practised it till the ISU saw SOMEONE ELSE land it and then decided to raise the BV.

Except he first landed it in practice in 2013.

 

[jFarrisFAN]

I don’t know if this was mentioned but I was reading through the document and realized rippons and arm variations are no longer a GOE bullet.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I don’t know if this was mentioned but I was reading through the document and realized rippons and arm variations are no longer a GOE bullet.

Body position bullet. They fit in there.

 

[jFarrisFAN]

Body position bullet. They fit in there.

“Very good body position from take-off to landing” I don’t know but that seems to me like it’s just a bullet for good posture, doesn’t sound like the old bullet that specifically stated “varied position in the air”. Maybe though.