- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Care to explain why you'd rank the 4L as much more difficult than the 4Z and 4F? Plenty of skaters also have issues rotating their 4F and 4Z as they do the 4L.
2018-2019 Season - New rules
- Thread starter enzofv
- Start date
Care to explain why you'd rank the 4L as much more difficult than the 4Z and 4F? Plenty of skaters also have issues rotating their 4F and 4Z as they do the 4L.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
I don’t smoke enough weed to enjoy this thread! Lol. I thank you guys though for keeping me informed of my beloved sport. Lol.
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2017
No toe-pick assist so you need to provide all the momentum yourself. With the triple loop, you can get it on just rotation speed, but the quad requires decent height as well and that in turn requires a ton of power to get that height with no assist (toe-pick on flip, lutz, and toe, or the "brush" on the salchow)
I'm more interested to see how the changes in the SoV will affect the ladies discipline since they really tweaked the GOEs for triples to make them more desirable to execute than quads. It's also interesting how the maximum values for 3Lz and 3F were higher in relation to a 3A, and yet a 3Lo still doesn't receive its more deserving BV. I'm still angry over the overall devaluation of StSq and Spins though and this new scoring system really looks like a UN resolution with many contradicting stuff to appease different blocks.
But more importantly, I know someone already mentioned it here before, but it would be much better to see a restructuring of the judging panel. Increase the number of judges to 10, and split their tasks between TES and PCS. 5 judges will only have to care about judging element per element, and the other 5 will only have to care about the totality of the program. CoP is too specific in judging elements that judges may have less room to look at the program in the big picture (of course, assuming the integrity of the judging panel is there). It's like a hybrid between CoP and 6.0. Judges will also have to only know which part of the score sheet they will have to judge immediately before performance, and it changes performance after performance. Meaning, J1 may judge the TES part for Skater 1 but may be tasked to score the PCS for Skater 2. This should not be a problem since they are supposedly competent judges and know how to judge both technical components and program components. And although we cannot completely erase block judging, splitting their tasks in random may also limit their "collective power" in the judging panel.
But more importantly, I know someone already mentioned it here before, but it would be much better to see a restructuring of the judging panel. Increase the number of judges to 10, and split their tasks between TES and PCS. 5 judges will only have to care about judging element per element, and the other 5 will only have to care about the totality of the program. CoP is too specific in judging elements that judges may have less room to look at the program in the big picture (of course, assuming the integrity of the judging panel is there). It's like a hybrid between CoP and 6.0. Judges will also have to only know which part of the score sheet they will have to judge immediately before performance, and it changes performance after performance. Meaning, J1 may judge the TES part for Skater 1 but may be tasked to score the PCS for Skater 2. This should not be a problem since they are supposedly competent judges and know how to judge both technical components and program components. And although we cannot completely erase block judging, splitting their tasks in random may also limit their "collective power" in the judging panel.
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- Joined
- Jan 10, 2014
^ They divided the scoring of GOEs and PCS back in Nebelhorn 2014 for ice dance and mens events: there were 12 judges in total, 5 judges determining the GOE and one component, 7 judges judging three components (different combinations). Overall, each skater would receive 5 full sets of GOE and component marks through 12 judges. Here's what it looked like in the men's free:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/nt2014/CSGER2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/nt2014/CSGER2014_Men_FS_Scores.pdf
Interesting. I haven't watched this competition but now I will, seeing how the PCS and TES really don't follow each other. I mean, look at the difference between Jason Brown's TES and PCS. Thanks for sharing.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
There's still some real variance in those SS marks. I'm not sure why one judge felt 6.75 was deserved for Jason Brown's SS, while others were scoring him in the 8s.
Maybe this eliminates the PCS-TES ties, but it still doesn't ensure standards are followed (if there are any that have been established), and it might not eliminate reputation or federation bias.
Maybe this eliminates the PCS-TES ties, but it still doesn't ensure standards are followed (if there are any that have been established), and it might not eliminate reputation or federation bias.
True. This is why aside from restructuring the judging panel, the pool of judges should not be coming from the feds but from competently trained judges subjected to yearly evaluation, all under the auspices of ISU. Although in terms of finances and resources, that's more difficult to achieve than just simply restructuring how judges do their work.
I just realized I'm the OP of this thread. LOL
Pretty satisfied with the new rules in terms of the jumps and ChSq. Bummer about spins and StSq, though.
We'll have to wait for more info on new program rules and component scores. I feel like those will impact the sport more heavily than the Values reformulation.
Pretty satisfied with the new rules in terms of the jumps and ChSq. Bummer about spins and StSq, though.
We'll have to wait for more info on new program rules and component scores. I feel like those will impact the sport more heavily than the Values reformulation.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2018
4F and 4Lz are toe jumps, 4Lo is edge jump. Rotation is a much bigger issue with quads than with triples, so the logic of 3Lo < 3F/3Lz doesn't work.
And, I may be mistaken, but I'm quite sure more skaters have issues rotating 4Lo than 4F/4Lz- I just don't think as many skaters attempt it. Among the top skaters, only Hanyu seems to use it as a practical jump (meaning, not jumping for the sake of it).
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
I get what you're saying about the toe assist, however, IMO the 4L is easier than the 4F and 4Z because for the latter two it's much more difficult to get into the backspin position when the vaulting action is off the picking foot and you have to torque your body harder to get into the rotation. The 4F and 4Z also seems to require more ice and greater speed for the entry compared to the 4L, because you need sufficient speed to vault high enough to give yourself time to transfer over into the backspin position and sufficiently rotate the jump. Whereas with the 4L, when the skater springs off the takeoff leg their body position is already primed to "backspin" and they don't have to torque their body as much to get into the backspin.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
So you're saying a 3L should be worth less than a 3F/3Z, but a 4L should be worth more than a 4F/4Z?
Also, Uno uses the 4L as a practical jump.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2018
Yes, because it's easier to rotate triples than quadruples. Therefore, the "harder rotation" is more prevalent in 4Lo rather than 3Lo.
And, also, yes, Uno uses 4Lo as well, sorry. I don't know why I forgot. His lands 4F more often than 4Lo though.
well, tbh a 4L its harder than a 4flip, I mean, to what I understand, you have to jump a loop with both feet on ice, while the 4flip you can push yourself up, doing the edge of the lutz is harder, but if they are not going to call it, then whats the point
feel free to correct me, thought
feel free to correct me, thought
I think they should ask the skaters before making changes on elements, I mean, how many of this people do jumps? why are they saying what should be harder? the skaters should get a said too, or ask former skaters about it, I doubt they are going to be biased about it, whos better to talk about jumps than the ones who perform it
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
When you go into the air on a lutz or flip (regardless of how many rotations) it is much harder to achieve the backspin position that skaters rely on to rotate. And (as you said) it's harder to rotate a quad than a triple, therefore it's harder to rotate quads where it's more difficult to get into the backspin/rotation position. The faster you get into that position, the greater the likelihood of you fully rotating the jump.
Regarding an edge-assisted jump vs. pick-assisted jump, is a 4S harder than a 4Z because it's an edge jump and doesn't have a vaulting pick? Of course not. If you look at the mechanics of the jumps and how it's harder to shift your hips and get into the backspin rotation of a flip and lutz (which also has counter-rotation to deal with, making it the hardest), compared to a loop where you're essentially in the backspin position to begin with (or a salchow/toe loop where the right leg can easily drive through to give the skater greater height).
In a loop, yes you have to spring using the strength of your right leg (CCW jumpers), but as far as backspin position goes, you're pretty much doing a backspin right off the the ice and the nature of the loop makes it easier to pull into that backspin position. There's a reason why some skaters will land the 3L as their first triple (because it's basically a backspin and they're pretty much in spinning position upon takeoff), but I can't imagine any skater who landed he 3Z or 3F as their first triple.
