2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Grin]

Pretty sure its the test skates, not a CS.

I still read CS as Counter-Strike
Sorry, offtopic and wrong fandom

 

[Fluture]

didn't she know that Yuna left Orser right after OG when she was 19 y.o? :sarcasm:
or his lack of result with Tursynbaeva 18 y.o...

I‘m sure she knows that Yuna left Orser. But I think it‘s more about the general approach of how to train older women. Yuna was 19, that‘s already a woman. And while Gabby isn‘t mainly coached under Orser she‘s also a woman, not a girl. So he does have more experience with mature skaters than Eteri. And even if he isn‘t that successful (that‘s pretty subjective, I‘d say he‘s one of the most successful coaches at the moment, even in women‘s skating...) he is still willing to focus on skater who might have passed a certain age. Eteri... not so much. And that‘s not even her fault, it‘s just a fact that she focuses on junior skaters. In Eteri‘s group there simply were too many youngsters battling for her attention. In Orser‘s group most skaters are adults. Zhenya wanted a change and she chose a coach who‘s trained the 2010 OGM at the age of 19. That‘s not stupid at all. Means he must have done something right...

Ummm no, i am moriel everywhere where I am =)
But yep, good thoughts come into good heads together.

Overall, I disagree with that answer you posted. There are many thing that are not just censorship. As I already answered, for PR, the passage where Zhenya says she likes the program was totally unnecessary. But yeah, maybe, "down with censorship and diplomacy", lets see the real Zhenya. But then, we are not expected to like her as a person - so far, I see a reasonably shallow and PR focused young lady with a rather large ego, which is fairly unpleasant.

Well, I‘d say that‘s a very subjective topic. I don‘t think Zhenya‘s too focused on PR at all, especially on social media you can often see her real sides. I wouldn‘t call her arrogant, more like confident, which you need to be if you want to survive in a tough environment like that. She’s sarcastic, maybe that’s why I like her so much. You basically can’t talk smack to her, she’ll either ignore you and handle it in a classy way or hit back twice as hard. Maybe she really is arrogant but well, then I don’t care. She’s got a fighting spirit, that girl and I like that. And just saying: Everyone‘s entitled to have their own opinion but if basically every skater is friendly with Zhenya and journalists and fans all over the world adore her... she can‘t be that much of a monster, can she?

 

[zounger]

I was missing her. Many figure skating fans were missing her.

I think, maybe I'm wrong I don't know, she can portrait the "womanly/feminine love" theme a tango or something similar, like her 2017 season programs, better than any other lady not only in Russia but world wide. So if someone is looking for something like that in skating he would not found it in other skaters neither in US, neither in Japan or Canada currently (maybe Carolina). And diffidently starts to miss her.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

January Stars, only the dress was pretty. Love her!
I’m rooting for Evgenia this season, it’s been a whirlwind situation for her lately.

 

[moriel]

I‘m sure she knows that Yuna left Orser. But I think it‘s more about the general approach of how to train older women. Yuna was 19, that‘s already a woman. And while Gabby isn‘t mainly coached under Orser she‘s also a woman, not a girl. So he does have more experience with mature skaters than Eteri. And even if he isn‘t that successful (that‘s pretty subjective, I‘d say he‘s one of the most successful coaches at the moment, even in women‘s skating...) he is still willing to focus on skater who might have passed a certain age. Eteri... not so much. And that‘s not even her fault, it‘s just a fact that she focuses on junior skaters. In Eteri‘s group there simply were too many youngsters battling for her attention. In Orser‘s group most skaters are adults. Zhenya wanted a change and she chose a coach who‘s trained the 2010 OGM at the age of 19. That‘s not stupid at all. Means he must have done something right...

Medvedeva was 18 and a couple of months when she won her silver medal, and then left Eteri
Yuna was 19 and a couple of months when she won her gold medal and then left Orser.
The age difference is pretty much a year. Yuna was, like... not really older. I don't see really how there is a difference of approach to train an 18 years old medalist and a 19 years old medalist. I would understand that, for example, the guy who coached Yuna into her SECOND olympic medal knows how to train older woman. The guy who coached Osmond into her olympic medal knows how to train older woman.
Gabby was born in 1998 while Zhenya was born on 1999. Again, this incredible difference of 1 year that means that the coach suddenly knows how to train older women (to be 15th at Olympics, like Gabby?).

Eteri, in ladies, has same results as BOrser olympic-wise. They both are capable of coaching 18-19 years old into medaling at their first olympics. None of them has or had successful 20+ ladies.

 

[russianfan]

The best part of the interview is how Vaitsekhovskaya is suddenly all nice with Zhenya =D

Also, from a previous interview, Zhenya on the ditched Averbukh program:
https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1056529901.html


vs now

She just looked at that program from a canadian point of view!

P.S. I was saying right from the start that this program is bad. It's completely empty and boring. Dress wasn't good either tbh. Probably she just still has orders for that women who makes dress, thats why she doesn't say bad things about the dresses

 

[Lily flowers]

She just looked at that program from a canadian point of view!

P.S. I was saying right from the start that this program is bad. It's completely empty and boring. Dress wasn't good either tbh. Probably she just still has orders for that women who makes dress, thats why she doesn't say bad things about the dresses

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
99.9% thought that dress was beautiful. In fact, I think that is the best dress Olga made.

 

[Fluture]

Medvedeva was 18 and a couple of months when she won her silver medal, and then left Eteri
Yuna was 19 and a couple of months when she won her gold medal and then left Orser.
The age difference is pretty much a year. Yuna was, like... not really older. I don't see really how there is a difference of approach to train an 18 years old medalist and a 19 years old medalist. I would understand that, for example, the guy who coached Yuna into her SECOND olympic medal knows how to train older woman. The guy who coached Osmond into her olympic medal knows how to train older woman.
Gabby was born in 1998 while Zhenya was born on 1999. Again, this incredible difference of 1 year that means that the coach suddenly knows how to train older women (to be 15th at Olympics, like Gabby?).

Eteri, in ladies, has same results as BOrser olympic-wise. They both are capable of coaching 18-19 years old into medaling at their first olympics. None of them has or had successful 20+ ladies.

It‘s not about one year age difference, really. It‘s about the general approach of training. Evgenia was Eteri‘s ONLY female skater who was older than the usual junior/early senior age. She does not know whether Eteri would be able to handle her when she was older. With Orser, she has a bigger chance because he is constantly training older women at Zhenya’s age (Gabby, Yuna, Tursynbaeva) not once like Eteri. There is nothing wrong with Eteri, it‘s just that her focus in training and probably her knowledge is on junior and younger skaters. Evgenia just didn‘t want to take the risk, that‘s all. I‘m not saying that she necessarily is going to be even more successful just because she changed to Orser because I simply do not know that. What I‘m saying, though, is that this was the smartest and frankly only choice she could have made. She wants longevity, there‘s only so many ways she can get it. It was time for her to move on so she looked which options she had and well, they weren‘t that great? Staying in Russia? No way, Eteri‘s the top coach there so everyone else would have been a step down. So there only really was Orser. And I don‘t get why you‘re trying to make him sound worse than he is ? Yeah, I know he‘s no magician and she won‘t suddenly be able to jump correct lutz just because of him being her coach but he has a lot of successful skaters at the moment (Gabby, Yuzu, Javi) and will take up others as well. It was her only option and imo, it‘s not a bad one.

Oh and about Gabby: She‘s not the most successful one, that‘s right. But she‘s been national champion, had a world bronze medal last year and can be called Olympic Champion. So frankly, I don‘t get what you‘re trying to imply here. Yes, she‘s not the most consistent one and she failed in the individual event but to say that a skater who‘s achieved this can‘t be considered successful? Weird, really.

But really, this thread is not about Orser or Gabby and I strongly fear that this discussion is going to lead in that direction. So, as a conclusion: I‘m happy for Evgenia‘s move and gladly await the results she will bring. However, everyone‘s entitled to offer their concerns. We‘ll see what the season brings, anyway, no need to fight over that now.

 

[ErgoProxy]

Medvedeva was 18 and a couple of months when she won her silver medal, and then left Eteri
Yuna was 19 and a couple of months when she won her gold medal and then left Orser.
The age difference is pretty much a year. Yuna was, like... not really older. I don't see really how there is a difference of approach to train an 18 years old medalist and a 19 years old medalist. I would understand that, for example, the guy who coached Yuna into her SECOND olympic medal knows how to train older woman. The guy who coached Osmond into her olympic medal knows how to train older woman.
Gabby was born in 1998 while Zhenya was born on 1999. Again, this incredible difference of 1 year that means that the coach suddenly knows how to train older women (to be 15th at Olympics, like Gabby?).

Eteri, in ladies, has same results as BOrser olympic-wise. They both are capable of coaching 18-19 years old into medaling at their first olympics. None of them has or had successful 20+ ladies.

Not everything has to be about the results, though. Fair, Tutberidze is very successful, but I'd say her comments such as female body beginning to prepare for motherhood and slowing down when growing up doesn't convey trust that she'd be extremely invested in the further development of adult skaters. She could still be more successful than Orser and dominate the field in the next four years, but I just cannot agree with the philosophy that women in the field would necessarily stagnate with the adulthood. It's extremely harmful, in my opinion. And Evgenia might not even get the results she got with Tutberidze, but at the very least she will try out her chances with someone who doesn't share the same philosophy on training women.

Edit: And yes, Tutberidze now has a 18-year-old student, but I think it still doesn't negate the fact that she seems to be primarly invested in her junior talents at the moment.

 

[Fluture]

Not everything has to be about the results, though. Fair, Tutberidze is very successful, but I'd say her comments such as female body beginning to prepare for motherhood and slowing down when growing up doesn't convey trust that she'd be extremely invested in the further development of adult skaters. She could still be more successful than Orser and dominate the field in the next four years, but I just cannot agree with the philosophy that women in the field would necessarily stagnate with the adulthood. It's extremely harmful, in my opinion. And Evgenia might not even get the results she got with Tutberidze, but at the very least she will try out her chances with someone who doesn't share the same philosophy on training women.

I fully agree with everything you said and personally, I think along the same lines. I’ve always found it troubling how Eteri (allegedly) said things like skaters over 18 will stop to be successful anyway because their bodies are preparing for motherhood or some nonsense like that. However, we do not know what really happened or what Zhenya really thinks so I tried to focus only on what she said in her interview and not some assumptions I made while reading it.

 

[moriel]

Not everything has to be about the results, though. Fair, Tutberidze is very successful, but I'd say her comments such as female body beginning to prepare for motherhood and slowing down when growing up doesn't convey trust that she'd be extremely invested in the further development of adult skaters. She could still be more successful than Orser and dominate the field in the next four years, but I just cannot agree with the philosophy that women in the field would necessarily stagnate with the adulthood. It's extremely harmful, in my opinion. And Evgenia might not even get the results she got with Tutberidze, but at the very least she will try out her chances with someone who doesn't share the same philosophy on training women.

Edit: And yes, Tutberidze now has a 18-year-old student, but I think it still doesn't negate the fact that she seems to be primarly invested in her junior talents at the moment.

I am just saying that both Eteri and Orser have pretty much same experience in working with older girls, and pretty much same success.

 

[Shayuki]

I'll admit, that's the part I found to be the oddest about the interview - That she went to Brian Orser due to Yuna. To me, their cases were very paralleled - Yuna won her first Olympics with Orser, yes, but she left immediately after, and Orser handled the departure immaturely. That's the exact same thing that happened with Medvedeva and Eteri. Yuna appeared in two Olympics, but for the second she trained with a completely different coach. Hence, I honestly didn't really understand the point she was making with that comparison and it did seem like it didn't quite fit with what she was saying.

So think about this 8 years into the future. Let's say that Medvedeva with Orser is successful and has a 2022 silver, or gold. Then a random skater x decides that she needs to, at the age of 17 or 18, transfer to Eteri Tutberidze, and quotes "Evgenia Medvedeva" and her success and longevity as the reason for her doing so. Wouldn't it be such a strange thing to say?

 

[Fluture]

I am just saying that both Eteri and Orser have pretty much same experience in working with older girls, and pretty much same success.

How? Eteri only had Medvedeva and now that she and Tsurskaya are gone her oldest skater is Zagitova. Orser has trained two female skaters to an Olympic Gold Medal (even though, to be fair, Gabby‘s was only in the team event). Eteri doesn‘t want to train older skaters or she simply seems unable to as all skater sooner or later leave her (Lipnitskaya, Tsurskaya, Medvedeva). What‘s the problem with admitting the fact that Eteri simply focuses on junior skaters? She achieves great results with them, probably the best ever. But she just doesn‘t seem to be able to handle older skaters so far. But what‘s the problem? Everyone‘s got a speciality and with Eteri it‘s bringing the best out of young talents.

 

[KiraraChin]

I am just saying that both Eteri and Orser have pretty much same experience in working with older girls, and pretty much same success.

No.
Eteri achieved a gold medal with a 15 year-old.
Brian achieved a gold medal with a 19 year-old.
Zhenya will be 22 in Beijing. Which one her body will resemble more, the 15 or the 19 year-old?
Come on, Moriel. It's not that hard to understand...

 

[Fluture]

I'll admit, that's the part I found to be the oddest about the interview - That she went to Brian Orser due to Yuna. To me, their cases were very paralleled - Yuna won her first Olympics with Orser, yes, but she left immediately after, and Orser handled the departure immaturely. That's the exact same thing that happened with Medvedeva and Eteri. Yuna appeared in two Olympics, but for the second she trained with a completely different coach. Hence, I honestly didn't really understand the point she was making with that comparison and it did seem like it didn't quite fit with what she was saying.

So think about this 8 years into the future. Let's say that Medvedeva with Orser is successful and has a 2022 silver, or gold. Then a random skater x decides that she needs to, at the age of 17 or 18, transfer to Eteri Tutberidze, and quotes "Evgenia Medvedeva" and her success and longevity as the reason for her doing so. Wouldn't it be such a strange thing to say?

Yes, it would because it doesn‘t make sense at all. EVERYONE knows that Eteri DOES NOT TRAIN OLDER SKATERS. Maybe she will do it in the future but for now she simply DID NOT DO IT. I won‘t state the name of „gold-medalist-Korean-skater“ and „gold-medalist-Canadian-skater“ because I will go nuts if I do it. But please, really: Orser trains OLDER women and only them at the moment. (In ladies skating, obviously) You cannot and should not compare this to Eteri Tutberidze who focuses on junior skaters. Really.

 

[Shayuki]

No.
Eteri achieved a gold medal with a 15 year-old.
Brian achieved a gold medal with a 19 year-old.
Zhenya will be 22 in Beijing. Which one her body will resemble more, the 15 or the 19 year-old?
Come on, Moriel. It's not that hard to understand...

Now, this comparison only makes sense if we assume that Yuna in 2010 would also have won the gold if a 15-year-old Zagitova performing these exact same programs in the exact same manner would have lost to her. I don't think it's accurate at all to completely dismiss the 18-year-old Medvedeva's olympic performance simply because someone defeated her in that event.

Yes, it would because it doesn‘t make sense at all. EVERYONE knows that Eteri DOES NOT TRAIN OLDER SKATERS. Maybe she will do it in the future but for now she simply DID NOT DO IT. I won‘t state the name of „gold-medalist-Korean-skater“ and „gold-medalist-Canadian-skater“ because I will go nuts if I do it. But please, really: Orser trains OLDER women and only them at the moment. (In ladies skating, obviously) You cannot and should not compare this to Eteri Tutberizde who focuses on junior skaters. Really.

My confusion wasn't with recognizing Orser's work with the other older skaters(I know that's the case), simply the Yuna example... It would have made sense if she was switching to the coach that prepared Yuna for her 2014 Olympic performance but in this case... Well, I guess this is not super important, still something about the interview where I didn't really see the logic.

 

[Fluture]

Now, this comparison only makes sense if we assume that Yuna in 2010 would also have won the gold if a 15-year-old Zagitova performing these exact same programs in the exact same manner would have lost to her. I don't think it's accurate at all to completely dismiss the 18-year-old Medvedeva's olympic performance simply because someone defeated her in that event.

Nobody is dismissing Medvedeva‘s olympic performance. Just saying that she‘s the only adult skater Eteri ever had. Yes, they achieved great results together and that‘s fine. But to say that Eteri and Orser have the same experience with older female skaters doesn‘t make sense at all and is simply incorrect.

@your post above: She did say it wasn‘t only about Yuna, or am I incorrect here? I think she used Yuna as the prime example for: „He can handle skaters at my age.“ I agree, she could have used a better fitting example but I think the point she tries to get across is still obvious.

 

[zounger]

If she kept Alina in juniors she could have been a "successful" senior coach with a gold medal and we didn't have this debate now

 

[Fluture]

If she kept Alina in juniors she could have been a "successful" senior coach with a gold medal and we didn't have this debate now

Ah, see, why didn‘t she do that then! How stupid of her not to ruin her chances of having both the Olympic gold and Olympic silver medal just to gain the reputation of being a „successful“ senior coach! Now we know why Zhenya said that to her: She was just worried for Eteri‘s reputation.

 

[Shayuki]

Nobody is dismissing Medvedeva‘s olympic performance. Just saying that she‘s the only adult skater Eteri ever had. Yes, they achieved great results together and that‘s fine. But to say that Eteri and Orser have the same experience with older female skaters doesn‘t make sense at all and is simply incorrect.

Ugh, I really hope this'll be the last time I'll need to bring my point across.

Yuna was Orser's first successful adult female skater as well... You have to start somewhere. Now, Yuna, Orser's first successful senior lady, left Orser after her Olympic victory in search for longevity elsewhere, Just like Medvedeva, Eteri's first successful senior lady, left Eteri after her Olympic silver, in search for longevity elsewhere. This is where I see the contradiction with citing Yuna's success as the main reason for going to Orser.

It's really not even such an important thing, I'm not sure what all the arguing is about...