2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[andromache]

I love a well-executed cantilever - that said, I don't think Trusova is the one being copied. (My guess would be Shoma Uno.)

I personally don't find Trusova's cantilever to make sense with the music - I want to see a move like that at a point of climax/drama for a real wow moment, but that's just me.

Eteri seemed to be complaining that the quad was reduced in value BECAUSE of Trusova (though this could be a translation error) when, IMO that is clearly not the case - it's because of Nathan, Boyang, and Shoma and the large number of falls we sometimes see in men's events. One could argue that quads should be worth more in ladies' than in men, but I understand ISU's desire to be consistent across the disciplines.

I also 100% agree with Eteri that you've got to be fearless to try these quads. Trusova's falls are pretty terrifying and painful looking. She's tough as heck.

 

[[email protected]]

One could argue that quads should be worth more in ladies' than in men, but I understand ISU's desire to be consistent across the disciplines.

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Then they should count pcs the same way. Trusova's TES rivals that of top men. Why are her pcs not counted with the same formula?

 

[Tulipstar]

The cantilever has been popular in competitive programs for several years, especially men's and pairs. It's also a favourite in exhibitions.

Which is why Trusova got the gimmick reaction.

If several others did it, why then would it only be a gimmick if a girl does it?

 

[andromache]

Then they should count pcs the same way. Trusova's TES rivals that of top men. Why are her pcs not counted with the same formula?

I don't think further PCS inflation based on high tech is the answer here lol.

(The TES to PCS ratio is pretty much always going to be imperfect and inexact, ESPECIALLY for skaters who are major outliers in their disciplines in terms of TES.)

 

[TGee]

If several others did it, why then would it only be a gimmick if a girl does it?

My sense is that Sasha really wasn't being singled out on this, it's just noticeable within the Junior Ladies conversation because she was the only one doing it.

I think it's more that, at the end of last season, there were a number of commentators saying that they were tired of 'showy gimmicks' in free programs such as cantilevers and hydroblades. So, Sasha got hit with that too.

As I've noted, there are very good reasons to include them in a complex competitive program with good variability in vertical position and types of movement. And working them into complex step sequences or transitions really ups the difficulty.

But there is a school of thought that doesn't see them as real skating, just show stuff. And this school of thought has had some influence.

The Duschenays included wonderful hydroblading in their ice dance, and Bourne/Kratz were famous for the 'Shae Lynne crunch' but hydroblading is effectively banned from competitive ice dance at this point because it won't be scored. I miss the hydroblades and am glad they are still used in pairs and singles.

So, another point on which there are different views about what makes great skating. Not something to take as sexist or targeted at a particular skater.

My own view on this is the same as for other complexities:

Great to include them if they are

- on the music
- work with the aesthetics of the program
- aren't just done for their own sake
- aren't used to distract from weak skating skills and poor edges

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The cantilever has been popular in competitive programs for several years, especially men's and pairs. It's also a favourite in exhibitions.

Which is why Trusova got the gimmick reaaction.

Nothing gimmicky about it. It’s a well executed maneuver that she has a great command over that adds to her performance the same as any other element. Anything can be called gimmicky but honestly I think it says more about the observer than the skater. To me it adds a wow factor and compliments her style as much as an exaggerated knee bend does a lyrical soft skater. I see no difference. Be who you are and do it the best you can. If you want the judges to take notice then do it loudly

 

[TGee]

Nothing gimmicky about it. It’s a well executed maneuver that she has a great command over that adds to her performance the same as any other element. Anything can be called gimmicky but honestly I think it says more about the observer than the skater. To me it adds a wow factor and compliments her style as much as an exaggerated knee bend does a lyrical soft skater. I see no difference. Be who you are and do it the best you can.

Agreed.

 

[typeyournamehere]

Good example of Trusova's lack of musicality. Doesn't feel the music at all.

 

[cruzceleste]

Good example of Trusova's lack of musicality. Doesn't feel the music at all.

Call me ignorant, but musicality can be trainned and grow in a skaters... so I wouldn´t worry about a 14yo girl having little of it. Is the job of the coreographer to tell her how to move or execute a move to go with the music...

 

[TGee]

Call me ignorant, but musicality can be trainned and grow in a skaters... so I wouldn´t worry about a 14yo girl having little of it. Is the job of the coreographer to tell her how to move or execute a mote to go with the music...

Was just about to write something similar.

For some artistic expression and musicality develops later...and they do pay a price in PCS as their scores on some of the components should be lower.

But let's not try to fit the Junior Ladies into some kind of pretty princessy skating box.

I felt that the program suited her athleticism, which is smart work by the choreographer. There is a lot in it, so if feeling the music doesn't come easily, she may need more runthroughs before she can do that.

Let's see how it looks by nationals.

 

[Sugar Coated]

Trusova may not have great “musicality” but she is absolutely a performer. I don’t consider her as artistic or as connected to the music as kostornaia (although even kostornaia seems less connected this year due to her programs). But Sasha absolutely delivers a performance that feels more complete than someone just jumping with music in the background which is kind of how I feel about Nathan Chen.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Guys... typeyournamehere was being sarcastic. He LOVES Trusova!

 

[andromache]

Was just about to write something similar.

For some artistic expression and musicality develops later...and they do pay a price in PCS as their scores on some of the components should be lower.

But let's not try to fit the Junior Ladies into some kind of pretty princessy skating box.

I felt that the program suited her athleticism, which is smart work by the choreographer. There is a lot in it, so if feeling the music doesn't come easily, she may need more runthroughs before she can do that.

Let's see how it looks by nationals.

I don't think Trusova is paying the price in PCS as she should be.

I have no problem with her being a power skater and not fitting into a "princessy" box, but she lacks the skating skills and musicality of Kostornaia. I would say her skating skills are about on par with Shcherbakova, but she lacks Shcherbakova's musicality. Her LP suits her well - but it doesn't make up what she lacks in comparison to others.

She's getting the Nathan Chen treatment. Quads = PCS.

 

[neusw]

Your comment prompted me to go back and watch the Eteri girls' programs, and the results may surprise you. By my count (may be off by +/- 1):

Sasha SP: 9 crossovers (usually only does sets of 3)
Sasha FS: 14

Alena SP: 11 (does anywhere from 2-4)
Alena FS: 17

Anna SP: 10 (usually does sets of 3 but had a set of 5 in the SP)
Anna FS: 20

Sasha actually does the fewest crossovers overall.

 

[andromache]

Your comment prompted me to go back and watch the Eteri girls' programs, and the results may surprise you. By my count (may be off by +/- 1):

Sasha SP: 9 crossovers (usually only does sets of 3)
Sasha FS: 14

Alena SP: 11 (does anywhere from 2-4)
Alena FS: 17

Anna SP: 10 (usually does sets of 3 but had a set of 5 in the SP)
Anna FS: 20

Sasha actually does the fewest crossovers overall.

Thank you for the correction! I guess I am just more conscious of Trusova's crossovers in comparison to the others? Very interesting.

 

[neusw]

Thank you for the correction! I guess I am just more conscious of Trusova's crossovers in comparison to the others? Very interesting.

Maybe that’s the case. I noticed that Alena’s crossovers are both fast and powerful, while Anna’s crossovers tend to be quite fast, but with less ice coverage/crossover. Sasha’s havr more ice coverage but are slower than Anna’s.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don't think Trusova is paying the price in PCS as she should be.

I have no problem with her being a power skater and not fitting into a "princessy" box, but she lacks the skating skills and musicality of Kostornaia. I would say her skating skills are about on par with Shcherbakova, but she lacks Shcherbakova's musicality. Her LP suits her well - but it doesn't make up what she lacks in comparison to others.

What price do you think she should be paying? I’d have Sasha between 7 and 8 on SS this season with her interpretation of the music right in there too.. I can’t think of a performance where I wouldn’t put Anna in the same category. Musicality is different than interpretation of the music. Sasha makes the music and program mold to her while Alena and Anna become the music. There is no one way and both can certainly score similar and I agree with most judges that she should be in that ~7.5 range.

Honestly...Anna is great and maybe closer to low 8’s (for interpretation of music) )but we’re talking less than a point difference. I’d without doubt give Sasha more points in other categories too. I just don’t buy into this idea that her PCS is some sham and the judges are giving her unfair scores.

 

[colormyworld240]

So many people are confusing good skating skills and being graceful with musicality. Kostornaia has great skating skills, no one doubts that. But Trusova's skating skills aren't miles behind like some seem to imply; she also has good edges and speed, but Kostornaia has more flow. You don't have to have elegant movements to have good skating skills. And in terms of musicality, Trusova has more musicality than Kostornaia. Kostornaia actually is not very musical at all; all her movements while very graceful and elegant, do not respond to the music, I think she's the perfect example of beautiful skating with the music in the background. She's just going through the motions, but doing so beautifully. Trusova at least tries to move with the music. The only PCS what Trusova should have lower is in skating skills, but not by 5 points like some people think. And just because someone isn't doing a typical elegant and graceful program doesn't make them not musical

 

[andromache]

What price do you think she should be paying? I’d have Sasha between 7 and 8 on SS this season with her interpretation of the music right in there too.. I can’t think of a performance where I wouldn’t put Anna in the same category. Musicality is different than interpretation of the music. Sasha makes the music and program mold to her while Alena and Anna become the music. There is no one way and both can certainly score similar and I agree with most judges that she should be in that ~7.5 range.

Honestly...Anna is great and maybe closer to low 8’s (for interpretation of music) )but we’re talking less than a point difference. I’d without doubt give Sasha more points in other categories too. I just don’t buy into this idea that her PCS is some sham and the judges are giving her unfair scores.

Here's some ballparking from me (I will 100% admit that this is not specifically for the SP or LP - just my impression of both programs and I am totally winging this)

Trusova: SS 7.5, TR 8, PE 8, IN 7, CH 7
Shcherbakova: SS 7.5, TR 8, PE 8.25, IN 8.5, CH 7.5
Kostornaia: SS 8.5, TR 8, PE 8.5, IN 8.25, CH 7.5

Maybe it's not so much that Trusova is overscored, but that her training mates are underscored? I'm not sure. Granted, we will have to see how the judges decide to evaluate them in the same competition. If their performances are similar enough to how they skated earlier in the season, then I will find it very strange for Trusova to receive scores at the same level of Anna and Alena when they're competing against each other.

I also think it will be interesting to see how all 3 are scored in relation to the other 2-3 Russian ladies we could see at the JGPF. For example, Tarakanova has incredible SS that only Kostornaia can match, and I think Alena Kanysheva is an incredibly well-rounded talent in all aspects of PCS (maybe especially CH and IN).

 

[serephy]

Your comment prompted me to go back and watch the Eteri girls' programs, and the results may surprise you. By my count (may be off by +/- 1):

Sasha SP: 9 crossovers (usually only does sets of 3)
Sasha FS: 14

Alena SP: 11 (does anywhere from 2-4)
Alena FS: 17

Anna SP: 10 (usually does sets of 3 but had a set of 5 in the SP)
Anna FS: 20

Sasha actually does the fewest crossovers overall.

Would you happen to know the numbers for Nastya T or Alena Kanysheva? Just interesting to compare given they both have pretty good skating skills but don't have the same choreo/team.