2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Tolstoj]

Erm, no offense but have you read my post at all?

“I‘m not agreeing with everything her team does, some of the choices they make are pretty questionable to me. So, it‘s not that I‘m trying to protect Brian Orser at all costs here.“

What exactly about that is me defending the “saint Orser“ narrative?I’m not saying Orser is a saint at all. And about Eteri I’m just saying that her methods obviously don‘t work for Zhenya anymore. Injuries happen to everyone, every team, no one is safe from them. Not Orser, not Eteri. It’s not Eteri’s fault Zhenya got injured at all. But Eteri relied and is relying on constant full run-throughs, something that puts a lot of pressure on the body. It gets good results but Zhenya is aiming at Beijing (how realistical that goal is is not up to debate) and with an already injured body, I‘m not sure she could have continued to work for longer with Eteri. That‘s all. I‘d ask you to be a bit more objective, actually read a post before you respond to it and be a bit calmer. Talk with reason to me and we can start a discussion. Because, I’m sorry but I really can’t take a post like this with uncalled for accusations seriously.

Pretty sure Evgenia would have won here at Skate Canada or grabbed the silver with Eteri, and people would have been mad to her because Evgenia is losing her dominance, but since she grabbed a bronze with Orser everyone is happy. (heck people were happy even after the SP which was objectively a disaster)

Disagree that Eteri's methods don't work for Evgenia anymore, she could have been at the top for at least another season.

The catch here is that Brian is trying to fix things, they are trying to make her a better skater, while for Eteri that was the package, she would have not touched a thing and everything would have looked worse as time goes by.

Please don't spin it into Saint Orser or even Evil Eteri, Evgenia explained clearly in the summer she moved to Toronto because she wanted to change, which doesn't necessarily mean what she previously had was bad, or doesn't work. After all she won the silver medal at the Olympics just 8 months ago.

Arguagbly still today, the Evgenia raised by Eteri is still a better skater than what she is now: spins were better, jumps like 3flip, 3lo, 3Sal were rock solid, no URs, programs packed with more transitions, even her I-spiral used to be better... but if everything work with Orser, she could be a better skater tomorrow and last longer.

 

[katymay]

The 3S also looked weird. It was small(Medvedeva was measured as having just about the biggest 3S out of all senior ladies) and the -3T afterwards was very UR(uncalled). This was her strongest jumping element in the past.

She did it at the end of the program, which is a mistake. It is her best jump, and should have been moved to the first part of the program.

 

[katymay]

I don't understand the comments for Medvedeva improving...honestly, I just don't see it. Spins, steps, jumps, skating flow, transitions, everything is much worse. You say her "fundamentals" improved--what does that even mean? It's not her skating improving. I have to agree with the judges here. Which aspect of Medvedeva's skating improved?

Orser needs to take at least part of the blame. The choreography is horrible and not suitable for Evgenia at all. Why are you making her relearn spins/steps which were very good before? And the layout of the programs is very counterproductive for scoring. For instance, why in the world would you put your combo second in the short when if you miss the second jump, you get 0 automatically (no other lady does this)...whereas if you miss the first you can just tack it onto the second...this cost Evgenia around 10 points and the first place here. And when you know Evgenia has a bad lutz, why try to put in under the microscope as much as possible with 3 instead of 1 for a very marginal point gain of 1.5 points across both programs. Say what you want about Eteri's camp, but they work the scoring system, and they are SMART.

Evgenia needs to go back to Eteri, or at least adopt the old strategies she used. I think she will be smart enough to realize this, just based on her reactions here. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I share your opinion. I don't see it either. Also though, I think she moved primarily because she wanted a change of scenery, a change of environment. Just like most kids her age, she wanted to see and experience something different. Eteri's world is a high stress grind, I can't say as I blame her. Test her english (which is very good by the way). I suspect she will never return to Russia permanently, I expect down the road,once she has retired, we will hear that she has become a Canadian citizen.

 

[TGee]

He didn't exactly help Yuzy to stay away from injurieS. same about Elizabet.... Who was in a terrible shape during OG with injured hip and back ..... same goes to other his students.
Don't you get tired of this bs "Saint Orser" already? :sarcasm:
It's a sport.

It's clear that you haven't been following Orser's interviews for the past 3 years.

Which is fine as your focus has been on other schools. However, statements about what Orser is 'responsible for' made out of context aren't any more helpful than those commenting on Russian Juniors without following their progress through the various schools.

A key point across Brian's statements is that he doesn't 'tell' his seniors how to train or what strategy to follow. Instead, because most of his skaters are mature seniors, he tries to get them to see the strategy for themselves.

This doesn't always go as Orser would advise, but he rarely gets to the insist point.

On Yuzuru, Brian said very clearly that his strong preference had been to work on perfecting jumps and maximizing GOE before introducing new quads. That is, he specifically recommended that Yuzuru follow the strategy they used for Javier.

Yuzuru insisted on the 4Lo and other new quads instead. He felt he needed to keep upping the BV to stay ahead of the younger men. The outcome was mixed in terms of injury, but successfully achieved a second OGM.

Regarding Lil Bet, Brian said in more than one interview, going back to 2016, that he was trying to convince her to do fewer run throughs but more clean ones. He was concerned that by doing so many run Lil Bet throughs had developed a 'I'll get it right the next time attitude" such that she couldn't get a clean program when it counted. He also said that he was concerned about the effect of repetition physically. However, his approach was to persuade and convince not insist.

But we also heard from Brian this spring that he was unwilling to continue to coach Lil Bet when there was another coaching voice coming from outside the club.

Bottom line: it sounds as though Lil Bet really felt more comfortable with Eteri's training approach and was trying to replicate it at TCC which has a different approach. The outcome was not ideal.

However, Lil Bet has brought the good SS, jump technique, and spins she learned at TCC with her. If Eteri can get her the next step to consistent performance without injury, it would be great.

 

[Tolstoj]

I don't understand the comments for Medvedeva improving...honestly, I just don't see it. Spins, steps, jumps, skating flow, transitions, everything is much worse. You say her "fundamentals" improved--what does that even mean? It's not her skating improving. I have to agree with the judges here. Which aspect of Medvedeva's skating improved?

Orser needs to take at least part of the blame. The choreography is horrible and not suitable for Evgenia at all. Why are you making her relearn spins/steps which were very good before? And the layout of the programs is very counterproductive for scoring. For instance, why in the world would you put your combo second in the short when if you miss the second jump, you get 0 automatically (no other lady does this)...whereas if you miss the first you can just tack it onto the second...this cost Evgenia around 10 points and the first place here. And when you know Evgenia has a bad lutz, why try to put in under the microscope as much as possible with 3 instead of 1 for a very marginal point gain of 1.5 points across both programs. Say what you want about Eteri's camp, but they work the scoring system, and they are SMART.

Evgenia needs to go back to Eteri, or at least adopt the old strategies she used. I think she will be smart enough to realize this, just based on her reactions here. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

They are working on things that should make her a long lasting skater things like ditching the layback not because was a bad spin (actually i think it was her strongest one) but because it brings back injuries, aiming for more distance in the combos, the 2a already looks far better, and skating skills are also better but it's hard to see in the free because i think Libertango in the steps sequence goes too fast for her.

As for the lutz the only "improvement" i saw was a proper toe pick instead of the blade assist, but the edge is still a problem.

 

[lavenderblossom]

The consipracy theories and speculation about Evgenia in this thread is really out of hand
She had a bad short. She had a good FS. She won bronze. She is still in the running for GPF. She's obviously not at her peak here, but she still has time to improve before Nationals. Enough panic talk about her needing to either run back to Eteri or get Canadian citizenship!!

 

[Fluture]

Pretty sure Evgenia would have won here at Skate Canada or grabbed the silver with Eteri, and people would have been mad to her because Evgenia is losing her dominance, but since she grabbed a bronze with Orser everyone is happy. (heck people were happy even after the SP which was objectively a disaster)

Disagree that Eteri's methods don't work for Evgenia anymore, she could have been at the top for at least another season.

The catch here is that Brian is trying to fix things, they are trying to make her a better skater, while for Eteri that was the package, she would have not touched a thing and everything would have looked worse as time goes by.

Please don't spin it into Saint Orser or even Evil Eteri, Evgenia explained clearly in the summer she moved to Toronto because she wanted to change, which doesn't necessarily mean what she previously had was bad, or doesn't work. After all she won the silver medal at the Olympics just 8 months ago.

Arguagbly still today, the Evgenia raised by Eteri is still a better skater than what she is now: spins were better, jumps like 3flip, 3lo, 3Sal were rock solid, no URs, programs packed with more transitions, even her I-spiral used to be better... but if everything work with Orser, she could be a better skater tomorrow and last longer.

I‘m getting increasingly frustrated in this thread. Have you even read my posts?

I said Eteri‘s method would have worked for Zhenya so that she would have had a season with dominance on her GP stages and only being second to Alina on the competitions. But then? That‘s what I was referring to and I think I said it very clearly. She would have dropped in the ranks, the juniors would have overshadowed her and she would still have had the old technique. Not that it can’t happen now, too. But now she tries to rework everything and start from scratch. She makes a change to stay relevant. AGAIN I‘m not saying that this will necessarily work out, only that it was her ONLY chance to survive the next four years. She wants to make it to Beijing. She already has problems with her health. THAT‘S why Eteri‘s method don‘t work. For one season they would have worked just fine but Evgenia DOES NOT want just one season, she wants more and she wants to be healthy. Eteri relies on constant run-throughs and there comes a point when you might not be able to train like this anymore. That‘s not Eteri‘s fault, why would it?

I‘m not happy she won bronze, she could have easily got gold without that freak accident. What I‘m happy about is that she came back strong after such a disappointing result in the SP. Because that shows strength. I‘ve posted a long analysis where she should improve and become better, I‘d suggest you read that. I never said Orser is a saint, I disagree with some of his decisions, too like putting three flutzes in her programs.

I never said what she previously had was bad just that it wouldn‘t work for the future. There is a reason she only got silver at the Olympics despite clean skates. Someone was better than her. Next year more skaters will turn up who are better. Heck, Rika and Alina can beat her anyday if they land their jumps. What she previously had served her just fine but it won‘t be enough anymore. She saw that, she considered her possibilities and she changed. No one knows whether it will work out or not but at least she tried.

 

[moriel]

Pretty sure Evgenia would have won here at Skate Canada or grabbed the silver with Eteri, and people would have been mad to her because Evgenia is losing her dominance, but since she grabbed a bronze with Orser everyone is happy. (heck people were happy even after the SP which was objectively a disaster)

THIS
I remember pretty well last years - whenever she had a stepout, this forum turned into a "SHE IS DONE!!! PUBERTY INJURY ETERI DOOM DOOM DOOM!!!" fest.
If she skated yesterday's FS under Eteri, there would be instant bashing on how terrible Eteri is, how she cannot even do simple math, how she ruined Zhenya's technique, how she ruined Zhenya, how Zhenya's jumps are muscled and so on.
I am not talking about the SP, I am talking about the FS. And you people know this is true, if don't, re-read the comments after last years Nepela, where she made less mistakes than at SC or ACI.

It is not about Orser vs Eteri, it is about the fans attitude.

 

[TGee]

Pretty sure Evgenia would have won here at Skate Canada or grabbed the silver with Eteri, and people would have been mad to her because Evgenia is losing her dominance, but since she grabbed a bronze with Orser everyone is happy. (heck people were happy even after the SP which was objectively a disaster)

Disagree that Eteri's methods don't work for Evgenia anymore, she could have been at the top for at least another season.

The catch here is that Brian is trying to fix things, they are trying to make her a better skater, while for Eteri that was the package, she would have not touched a thing and everything would have looked worse as time goes by.

Please don't spin it into Saint Orser or even Evil Eteri, Evgenia explained clearly in the summer she moved to Toronto because she wanted to change, which doesn't necessarily mean what she previously had was bad, or doesn't work. After all she won the silver medal at the Olympics just 8 months ago.

Arguagbly still today, the Evgenia raised by Eteri is still a better skater than what she is now: spins were better, jumps like 3flip, 3lo, 3Sal were rock solid, no URs, programs packed with more transitions, even her I-spiral used to be better... but if everything work with Orser, she could be a better skater tomorrow and last longer.

Exactly on point...

I wish that folks would understand that when folks say that certain techniques won't be sustainable with a mature body, it's not 'hate'.

Rather it's recognition that Eteri is a master strategist and tactician with a laser focus on assuring that her country and students AS A GROUP maximize medals at the highest level.

But for Zhenya, as an individual, keeping with those techniques with a mature body was not the way to her goal of SUSTAINED success.

Simple issue. Zhenya needed to go where her personal goal aligned with that of the coach's strategy and vision.

Liza Tuktamysheva was fortunate that Mishin was committed to her for the long haul. Mishin took on the issue of how to train and achieve jumping excellence among mature women as a personal challenge.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

On an entirely different note, I think that the competition at Golden Bear is over, so I'm finally posting my congratulations to Alena Kanysheva for her win!
SP here: https://streamable.com/crsrv
FS here: https://streamable.com/u441o

She's moved her FS layout to put all her combos in the back half, so gutsy of her. And she landed everything! The 3S might be a bit under but no stepouts or falls

 

[dobrevaria]

This competiton (SC) was really interesting to watch for me because of the presence of Medvedeva, Panenkova and Tursybaeva. From the beginning, I was really curious to see the improvements of these three skaters because they either left Eteri (Evgenia, Daria) or joined her (Tursynbaeva).

Well, I would say that Panenkova skating worsened under Tsareva. More mistakes and it's less fluid than before...at least, I see it like that. I think that the infamous "multiple run trough" technique worked quite well for her, since she didn't make so many mistakes. I think Daria is a skater with a lot of potential, she seems to have finished her puberty, she is pretty on the ice, good skating skills overall but she seems incredibly distant and indifferent during her programs, so I think she can definitely work on that.

Tursynbaeva...Well. I didn't see a lot of improvements to be honest, and we can see that trough her score, which are basically the same that she got last year at the same time-period. I'm going to wait to see the imrpovements and subtle changes of her skating.

I have a lot of things to say about Medvedeva. After ACI, I was afraid and worried because well...She was not there yet. And it's still the case, even if she improved a lot. HOWEVER, we have to remember that during more than a year, she won every single competition she took part in, and it's just incredible. Of course, doing that again is going to be difficult and she will face a lot of hardships. But Evgenia is a fighter. Coming back from the 7th place to the 3rd place overall is really good. And her skating in some areas really improved - especially the axels ! So so much better than before. The skating skills didn't change that much, however her spins are less good than under Eteri, so she will have to work on that to not lose levels. It's not perfect yet, but she seems to adapt quite quickly (a lot more quickly than what I expected at first) and she is a fighter so I don't worry too much.

 

[Fluture]

On an entirely different note, I think that the competition at Golden Bear is over, so I'm finally posting my congratulations to Alena Kanysheva for her win!
SP here: https://streamable.com/crsrv
FS here: https://streamable.com/u441o

She's moved her FS layout to put all her combos in the back half, so gutsy of her. And she landed everything! The 3S might be a bit under but no stepouts or falls

Yay for Alena! She really seems to want to be in medal contention for the JGPF how tough it might be. Really gutsy of her.

That‘s my only issues with the JGPF... too many skaters I love and not enough medals for all of them...

 

[plushyfan]

I share your opinion. I don't see it either. Also though, I think she moved primarily because she wanted a change of scenery, a change of environment. Just like most kids her age, she wanted to see and experience something different. Eteri's world is a high stress grind, I can't say as I blame her. Test her english (which is very good by the way). I suspect she will never return to Russia permanently, I expect down the road,once she has retired, we will hear that she has become a Canadian citizen.

 

[Fluture]

Exactly my reaction as well

 

[Tulipstar]

In the FS we saw the old Evgenia: the one that doesn't buckle under pressure. It was amazing!

 

[Fluture]

In the FS we saw the old Evgenia: the one that doesn't buckle under pressure. It was amazing!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpdhC9GBZVy/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=ybnpa13yf8jx

And her signature move is back!!

 

[Sugar Coated]

I share your opinion. I don't see it either. Also though, I think she moved primarily because she wanted a change of scenery, a change of environment. Just like most kids her age, she wanted to see and experience something different. Eteri's world is a high stress grind, I can't say as I blame her. Test her english (which is very good by the way). I suspect she will never return to Russia permanently, I expect down the road,once she has retired, we will hear that she has become a Canadian citizen.

I don’t think she was looking to experience a new country. I think that training everyday with the Olympic gold medalist in a pressure cooker while also alongside the über juniors, would not have been healthy for her. And she knew this.

I also think that she would have always questioned whether she would have been better off somewhere else since she had only trained with Eteri. That doubt - what it would be like under another coach - would have haunted her the rest of her life had she not tried something new. Orser was considered the next best coach in her mind.

 

[icybear]

Lol isu finally gave an edge call for the Evgenia lutz. I think that might be the first edge call of her senior career

 

[silverfoxes]

It's entirely possible to have multiple reasons for wanting to change coaches/go to Canada. Evgenia is not a capricious girl - I'm sure she weighed all the different factors in her mind before she made a decision, and discussed it with her mother, etc. But haven't we covered this enough already?

 

[ArenaWings]

Medvedeva can rank as Orser's #1 most attacked student for moving to him. Hanyu was criticized but never was this crazy.
And I am not Russian so bear with me, why on earth do some Russians think she is going to change nationality just because she changed the training location to Canada?
This is beyond my comprehension.