2018-19 U.S. Ladies' figure skating

[skylark]

I think the reason fans don't coddle Ashley is her iron-clad certainty that she's never at fault, and never inflated, and always awesome, .

I don't see Ashley that way at all. I do think she's earned a healthy self-respect, and she's learned that she can't count on others to do it for her. I wonder if so many people's constant habit of underestimating her, even undervaluing her talent and all she's done for US figure skating, have occasionally caused her to act in self-defense. Not nearly as often as some would have us believe, though.

 

[macy]

If Ashley's only hope of beating Karen was getting inflated PCS at Nationals, then she did not deserve to go to the Olympics.

While I'm not a judge and can't argue the finer points of TES and PCS, it seemed to my casual eyes that all the ladies who medaled at Nationals skated ways better than Ashley. Cleaner, prettier, more exciting, fresher.

She was objectively worse; also, she was the past, while Karen was the future. And yet, there was a noticeable publicity push about possibly choosing Ashley over silver & bronze medalists, regardless.

and how is that working out so far?

 

[Casual]

I think you should switch the two names in your first sentence... Karen needed (and got) inflated PCS to beat Ashley, Ashley needed just the same PCS she got internationally.

I do agree from an untrained eye it may appear that others may have skated more "clean". But from a certified international ISU judge perspective Ashley was a clear third or maybe even higher at nationals. Again I think it serves no one well that Nationals judges seem to try to pick to "hottest" skater on that day instead of who really has the strongest prospects (and they do this by basing PCS on one day performance/execution, versus the other categories).

What you're saying is the judges should judge based on "reputation scoring", instead of an actual performance.

I strongly disagree. I think the reputational scoring (and resulting enormous bias, and perception of crooked judging!) is the main reason why the fans have been leaving this sport in droves.

Scores based on reputation, scores to promote Fed's favorites - herein lies THE ROT at the heart of ISU and national federations.

As a casual observer, I don't give a flying fig about the Fed's preferences, or the judges darlings, or a skater defying expectations due to a particularly good or a bad day and thus inconveniencing a preferred narrative... However, I do care deeply about fairness.

When I see that judging, for some inexplicable reason, is not in fact based on the day of the performance, AND ONLY on the day of performance, but rather on "reputation" - which often means some super-inflated (or super-depressed) prior "established" scores - I don't get it. What is it - public sport, or a private corrupt club?

 

[Casual]

and how did that work out for them?

Ashley disappointed in Sochi in 2014, and she bombed at Nationals in 2018. What makes you think she would have bested Karen at PyeongChang?

As for the future - there was potential with Karen, and still is. Hopefully, she'll heal from her injuries.

There was clearly no future with Ashley, she was like Rippon, looking to retire. (But she was much less memorable than Rippon - so if the Fed's goal in choosing him was to showcase a variety of American skating styles to the biggest audience, then Rippon on Olympic team made sense (still unfair though), but Ashley did not).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think the whole concept of "world record scores" creates an illusion that marks across different events are comparable. They are not. How skaters have scored historically should provide some guidance, but the point of judging an event is to order the competitors there, not rank each athlete against their personal best from other events. There are exceptions, but overall I think the judges have mostly been getting the top placements right in these events, so I'm ok with wonky looking scores if everyone finishes where they should.

 

[readernick]

Ashley disappointed in Sochi in 2014, and she bombed at Nationals in 2018. What makes you think she would have bested Karen at PyeongChang?

As for the future - there was potential with Karen, and still is. Hopefully, she'll heal from her injuries.

There was clearly no future with Ashley, she was like Rippon, looking to retire. (But she was much less memorable than Rippon - so if the Fed's goal in choosing him was to showcase a variety of American skating styles to the biggest audience, then Rippon on Olympic team made sense (still unfair though), but Ashley did not).

Your post show extreme bias. Ashley got 6th place in Sochi and probably deserved 5th( hometown inflation) She skated very consistently but her UR and edges were called while local skaters were not. Not at all bad result at the Olympics. ( Mirai got 10th place at a waterdowned 4CC that year, I think the fed made the right decision) She did not bomb nationals. Her lp at nationals TES was higher than Karen’s. Karen got 11th in 2018. Not even top 10. Who actually under performed at the Olympics? Honestly, neither skater deserved to go to the Olympics in 2018 but the fed would have been smart to send Ashley because her higher PCS marks would at least have kept her in the top 10. Karen has no potential in the new system. I am not trying to be rude but she URs almost every jump.( she was already getting eaten up by international tech panels prior to injury and the new stricter system) I don’t understand why the Fed pushed Karen so much. Mariah Bell had higher TES than Karen at nationals in the free skate, if they wanted to push someone she would have been a better choice.

Anyway, Ashley was the best US ladies skater of the last 10 years. Her international results prove it. The US fed never liked Ashley put she succeeded. Results speak for themselves.

 

[evasorange]

Ashley disappointed in Sochi in 2014, and she bombed at Nationals in 2018. What makes you think she would have bested Karen at PyeongChang?

As for the future - there was potential with Karen, and still is. Hopefully, she'll heal from her injuries.

There was clearly no future with Ashley, she was like Rippon, looking to retire. (But she was much less memorable than Rippon - so if the Fed's goal in choosing him was to showcase a variety of American skating styles to the biggest audience, then Rippon on Olympic team made sense (still unfair though), but Ashley did not).

What makes me think Ashley could have bested Karen at PyeongChang? Well I’m
Bored at work and decided to crunch some numbers-and I think they speak for themselves.
In the 2014/15 season, Karen and Ashley only met at Nationals-where Ashley scored a combined total of 221 to win, and Karen a 199 to get the bronze.
In the 2015/2016 season in their respective Grand Prixs, Ashley at her two events scored a 202 and a 179, Karen a 172 and 175. At nationals Ashley scored 197, Karen 168.
In the 2016/2017 season, Ashley at her two Grand Prix scored a 196 and a 181, Karen a 178 and 179. At nationals Karen was able to win with a 214, Ashley the silver with a 211. Then at world Ashley scored 193, Karen a 199.
In the 2017/2018 season ashley and Karen both were assigned to the same gps. In the first Grand Prix Ashley scored a 183, Karen a 170. At the second Ashley withdrew from the long but comparing their short program scores Ashley got a 64, Karen a 59. At nationals Ashley was scored a 196 with 1 pop and 1 ur, Karen a 198 with 3 urs and a downgrade.

So in the quad leading up to PyeongChang, Karen was only able to beat Ashley three times, two of those being at nationals where she was clearly the fed favorite. Only one time has she ever beat Ashley internationally. In this past quad she only went to worlds once and has never in her career won a Grand Prix medal of any color. In those same 4 years Ashley won 7 gp medals including a gp final bronze, and broke the decade long world medal drought with a silver. Even with both Ashley and Karen underperforming at this past nationals the stronger competitive choice to send to comepete internationally is clear. Why people STILL want to argue this in The face of so many cold hard facts is beyond me. Oh well, I’m always happy to crunch numbers and show what a strong skater Ashley has been for team USA all these years

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Anyway, Ashley was the best US ladies skater of the last 10 years. Her international results prove it. The US fed never liked Ashley put she succeeded. Results speak for themselves.

I don't think this is the case. She got overall fair treatment over the years IMO. The last few years it looked like the USFSA was pushing for a younger star, but I didn't see that as anything personal against her because it's always been the case over the years. I think the USFSA would have embraced Cohen over Kwan as early as 2001 if Sasha was ever able to give them a reason to.

 

[skylark]

What makes me think Ashley could have bested Karen at PyeongChang? Well I’m
Bored at work and decided to crunch some numbers-and I think they speak for themselves.
In the 2014/15 season, Karen and Ashley only met at Nationals-where Ashley scored a combined total of 221 to win, and Karen a 199 to get the bronze.
In the 2015/2016 season in their respective Grand Prixs, Ashley at her two events scored a 202 and a 179, Karen a 172 and 175. At nationals Ashley scored 197, Karen 168.
In the 2016/2017 season, Ashley at her two Grand Prix scored a 196 and a 181, Karen a 178 and 179. At nationals Karen was able to win with a 214, Ashley the silver with a 211. Then at world Ashley scored 193, Karen a 199.
In the 2017/2018 season ashley and Karen both were assigned to the same gps. In the first Grand Prix Ashley scored a 183, Karen a 170. At the second Ashley withdrew from the long but comparing their short program scores Ashley got a 64, Karen a 59. At nationals Ashley was scored a 196 with 1 pop and 1 ur, Karen a 198 with 3 urs and a downgrade.

So in the quad leading up to PyeongChang, Karen was only able to beat Ashley three times, two of those being at nationals where she was clearly the fed favorite. Only one time has she ever beat Ashley internationally. In this past quad she only went to worlds once and has never in her career won a Grand Prix medal of any color. In those same 4 years Ashley won 7 gp medals including a gp final bronze, and broke the decade long world medal drought with a silver. Even with both Ashley and Karen underperforming at this past nationals the stronger competitive choice to send to comepete internationally is clear. Why people STILL want to argue this in The face of so many cold hard facts is beyond me. Oh well, I’m always happy to crunch numbers and show what a strong skater Ashley has been for team USA all these years

Well done.

 

[Casual]

Your post show extreme bias. Ashley got 6th place in Sochi and probably deserved 5th( hometown inflation) She skated very consistently but her UR and edges were called while local skaters were not. Not at all bad result at the Olympics. ( Mirai got 10th place at a waterdowned 4CC that year, I think the fed made the right decision) She did not bomb nationals. Her lp at nationals TES was higher than Karen’s. Karen got 11th in 2018. Not even top 10. Who actually under performed at the Olympics? Honestly, neither skater deserved to go to the Olympics in 2018 but the fed would have been smart to send Ashley because her higher PCS marks would at least have kept her in the top 10. Karen has no potential in the new system. I am not trying to be rude but she URs almost every jump.( she was already getting eaten up by international tech panels prior to injury and the new stricter system) I don’t understand why the Fed pushed Karen so much. Mariah Bell had higher TES than Karen at nationals in the free skate, if they wanted to push someone she would have been a better choice.

Anyway, Ashley was the best US ladies skater of the last 10 years. Her international results prove it. The US fed never liked Ashley put she succeeded. Results speak for themselves.

I didn't like Ashley in Sochi (wasn't she 7th?), and I liked her even less at Nationals. If that makes me biased, so be it - but as a casual fan, I like what I like, and I thought she looked awfully uninspiring compared to others.

I liked Karen's (and Mariah's) skating style much better than Ashley's, and to me, Karen looked fresh and talented and cleaner. UR is not a crime for which there's no cure - she can learn and improve, hopefully.

I just didn't find Ashley particularly artistic at Nationals, at all. Despite her "reputation" for high PCS. Sorry for my honest opinion. I thought she looked more artistic in a Toyota commercial, than at any competition I watched.

 

[skylark]

as a casual fan, I like what I like, .

Of course you're entitled to your opinion and to like what you like. But that isn't what you said in your post. You said:

Ashley disappointed in Sochi in 2014, and she bombed at Nationals in 2018.​

Neither of which was true if you look at results. If she disappointed you, that's something else; it's just your opinion. But even with the problems I have with how she was scored at Nationals 2018, it's quite the exaggeration to say she "bombed." What does that say about Mariah, Starr, and the rest.

If, as you said, Ashley disappointed in Sochi by coming in 7th in the individual event, then Bradie, Mirai, and Karen disappointed in Pyeongchang by coming in 9th, 10th, and 11th.

 

[Mrs. P]

So Mirai was on USFS instastory promoting nationals (she was skating in the rink in downtown Detroit) and told people to buy tickets and “watch us.” Is that a hint?!

 

[Casual]

Of course you're entitled to your opinion and to like what you like. But that isn't what you said in your post. You said:

Ashley disappointed in Sochi in 2014, and she bombed at Nationals in 2018.​

Neither of which was true if you look at results. If she disappointed you, that's something else; it's just your opinion. But even with the problems I have with how she was scored at Nationals 2018, it's quite the exaggeration to say she "bombed." What does that say about Mariah, Starr, and the rest.

If, as you said, Ashley disappointed in Sochi by coming in 7th in the individual event, then Bradie, Mirai, and Karen disappointed in Pyeongchang by coming in 9th, 10th, and 11th.

Ashley disappointed in Sochi, because of all the publicity hoop-la and promises of greatness that did NOT materialize there. Her PR presented her as a serious contender, but she bombed - and then proceeded to blame the judges, implying that she deserved a much higher placement (she did not).

At least no one expected Bradie, Mirai, and Karen to medal in Pyeongchang, and they did not blame the judges for their placements.

She was abysmal at nationals, but once again, her PR machine had the gall to suggest that judges are to blame (instead of her own unfortunate performance), and that others should be pushed aside anyway, again.

She disappointed (bombed) compared to her PR. Over-promised, but under-delivered.

 

[skylark]

When I look at skaters, I compare "which one seemed more artistic and talented performer, today,

Fair enough; so do I. And those qualities can be pretty subjective; there's room for lots of differences in opinion.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Ashley and her skating.

 

[evasorange]

Ashley disappointed in Sochi, because of all the publicity hoop-la and promises of greatness that did NOT materialize there. Her PR presented her as a serious contender, but she bombed - and then proceeded to blame the judges, implying that she deserved a much higher placement (she did not).

At least no one expected Bradie, Mirai, and Karen to medal in Pyeongchang, and they did not blame the judges for their placements.

She was abysmal at nationals, but once again, her PR machine had the gall to suggest that judges are to blame (instead of her own unfortunate performance), and that others should be pushed aside anyway, again.

She disappointed (bombed) compared to her PR. Over-promised, but under-delivered.

You are seriously ether distorting facts to suit your dislike of Ashley, or misremembering things. Gracie was the one that had the “publicity hoopla” and “promise of greatness” as she came into Sochi as national champ, she was on the cover of sports illustrated that February, was in the untied airlines Olympic athletes commercials and had a cover girl contact. Ashley had a firestorm of bad press from a combination of being put on the team instead of Mirai and being one of the few Americans athletes to speak out on Russia’s anti gay laws. She WAS a serious contender, if you had been paying attention to that quads results and did not bomb-did she fail to live up to expectations sure we can make an argument for that but she she was far from the utter train wreck you are implying. And as for your insistence that she was “abysmal” at nationals-I provided you with receipts above that she actually did better jump wise(where the majority of technical points come from) in the free the Karen but you’ve conveniently ignored that.

 

[fabienne1996]

As far as her blog gives it away sh3 is now retired, she makes it quite clear she will not go on competition again

I bet one million dollars that we will NOT see Ashley competing at Nationals.

This (nice and inspiring) Instagram post https://www.instagram.com/p/BrDgzhkAkrp/ makes it pretty clear that Ashley is not training at a competitive level.

 

[skylark]

So Mirai was on USFS instastory promoting nationals (she was skating in the rink in downtown Detroit) and told people to buy tickets and “watch us.” Is that a hint?!

I hope so ! yes, I think it's a pretty strong hint. The last I heard about whether Mirai was training for nationals or not was several months ago. At the time, the answer was "yes."

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I hope so ! yes, I think it's a pretty strong hint. The last I heard about whether Mirai was training for nationals or not was several months ago. At the time, the answer was "yes."

It will be nice to see her at Nationals. It wasn't lack of talent, but rather nerves, that always held her back, so now that she's accomplished her big goal of winning an Olympic medal she can hopefully skate freer in competition.

 

[Casual]

You are seriously ether distorting facts to suit your dislike of Ashley, or misremembering things. Gracie was the one that had the “publicity hoopla” and “promise of greatness” as she came into Sochi as national champ, she was on the cover of sports illustrated that February, was in the untied airlines Olympic athletes commercials and had a cover girl contact. Ashley had a firestorm of bad press from a combination of being put on the team instead of Mirai and being one of the few Americans athletes to speak out on Russia’s anti gay laws. She WAS a serious contender, if you had been paying attention to that quads results and did not bomb-did she fail to live up to expectations sure we can make an argument for that but she she was far from the utter train wreck you are implying. And as for your insistence that she was “abysmal” at nationals-I provided you with receipts above that she actually did better jump wise(where the majority of technical points come from) in the free the Karen but you’ve conveniently ignored that.

She got good press from speaking out on Russia's anti-gay laws (as she should have). Also, she blamed the judges for her poor placings (as she shouldn't have).

We'll have to agree to disagree about her performance at Nationals relative to Karen (and Mirai, and Mariah).

It's a moot point anyway - she's retired. Now she's making a name for herself as a commentator, and I fully support her efforts. I like her commentary better than I liked her skating.

 

[Casual]

It will be nice to see her at Nationals. It wasn't lack of talent, but rather nerves, that always held her back, so now that she's accomplished her big goal of winning an Olympic medal she can hopefully skate freer in competition.

I hope so too. I like Mirai.

But what will be her motivation? She was on fire when she wanted to prove herself and go back to the Olympics - but with another Olympics an unlikely possibility, (right?), what will drive her?