2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[lavoix]

I don‘t think it‘s that easy to make of a statement and I also don‘t think it‘s correct. Let‘s see who‘s left Eteri...

Polina Tsurskaya: she was already injured under Eteri and didn‘t perform her best, it was a clear trend downwards imo. And it was obvious that she wasn‘t feeling comfortable in that group either. And now her injury seems to be even worse and that combined with chronic underrotation issues Team Buyanova apparently doesn‘t care about fixing can’t end well. Maybe the team she chose was a mistake but leaving Eteri clearly wasn‘t. She wasn‘t doing particularly well under her either and even if she was, she wasn‘t happy there and that‘s a crucial thing if you want to work successfully anywhere.

Daria Panenkova: I don‘t know what happened to her but the poor girl really doesn‘t have it easy. She was very consistent last season and isn‘t now. I thought I heard she‘s injured and has boot issues. Her coaching situation also is very confusing.

Anastasia Tarakanova: she does very well. Two medals at JGP, one gold, one silver and made the final and placed 4th there. The SP has been her weakness this season and she continues to underperform it. It‘s a very difficult image to portray, maybe to difficult for her at this early stage of her career. But if she comes back spectacularly in the FS which she almost always does, there‘s no way she‘ll end up second to last again.

Evgenia Medvedeva: There‘s so much talk about her so I won‘t say much. But it was obvious that psychologically staying with Eteri wouldn‘t have worked for her. Her issues now aren‘t really easy to explain but are probably a mixture of adapting to new technique, environment, training and life in general + less training than with Eteri due to multiple injuries which results in less body memory + a loss of confidence due to her suddenly finding herself not able to do everything 100% like she practiced. Time will tell whether she can overcome that. If she does, she‘ll be great. If not... not.

And I generally don‘t like this pattern of “students who leave Eteri do worse because she is the genius coach and only she can get results“ I mean, yes, she is a great coach and yes; she gets results. And she also obviously isn‘t the evil monster either who just exploits her students for fame and money. But there is this pattern of students who already showed signs of fatigue in their body leaving her and looking worse after. And I ask myself why everyone only sees that as a sign of her greatness and their weakness? Can‘t it be sign as a sign of the weakness of her training method having consequences, too? That she makes the students get the medals they want but at what cost? That they leave broken? I don‘t know how people can ignore this. It‘s not about evil Eteri what I‘m trying to say, or about hating. Ted‘s interview has clearly shown that she isn‘t a monster, that there are many human and emotional aspects about her, that she cares about her students. But from someone who’s looking at this logically, it can’t only be the new coaches’ or the students’ fault that they are underperforming after they left her.

There is still this pattern of students and I can’t ignore it, despite the medals she gets. Every coach has injuries and I‘m not talking about the injuries. I‘m talking about the mental aspect. It seems to me that, as soon as you‘re struggling physically, it‘s over for you. Anna is the exception here with her broken leg but she was young and didn‘t have any titles or experience, her returning was amazing but somehow still different than the other cases I mentioned.

Again, this is not about me hating on Eteri. I obviously know that she helps many children achieve their dreams. But then I see the consequences. Everything has consequences so why not Eteri‘s coaching? She isn‘t the perfect genius either so I have a hard time blaming only the students and saying the only reason was they left Eteri and she‘s the only one who made them get results. I see medals but I also see... Polina’s and Evgenia’s and Yulia’s and how they look after these medals. Who don’t only struggle physically but clearly have a mental scar, too. Maybe that‘s normal in sports, maybe it‘s what you have to do to be successful. I don‘t follow it long enough to know. But these are children, so yes, I start doubting and questioning. And in my opinion, it’s obvious that the blame isn‘t only on the students who left and their new coaches. The old team has some fault too. I don‘t know how much and I‘m not the one to judge. The only thing I want is that we get away from this whole situation of people being either “evil Eteri is a monster!“ or “Eteri is a genius and whoever leaves her will regret it soon enough“ Maybe there‘s an inbetween. Things aren‘t as black and white as they might look like.

That‘s all I wanted to say and I kinda expect getting attacked already but before you do it, please read the multiple times I said “I don‘t hate Eteri“ (which I don‘t. Without her many of my favourites probably wouldn‘t be even known today). Thanks.

That is how Eteri trains students, that is the Russian figure skating school, it's tough, it's about putting in the numbers. Brian Orser even said the same in his interview and said that when Zhenya went to him she never had a second of spare time during her time with Eteri when training. The western way is way more calm and not as competitive. That has benefits, but when you're going from the Russian school to the Canadian, the switch isn't easy. Take it from someone who went from Eastern Europe to the west. While I enjoy some of the things in the west, I thought the Russian style benefited people in sports because it introduced discipline and what is hard work. I didn't quite get that in the west. And I think this is also some of the main reasons Zhenya has been struggling.

 

[[email protected]]

Count me as criminal too. It’s one of the only POTO’s I can stomach and I think it’s because I don’t have to listen to one movement for too long.

I just don't get no less than 100 posts outcry about Alina's music cuts. It's not like I came to concert and the conductor decided to play Moon Sonata the other way around doing arbitrary cuts on the way. I recently realized that many pairs' performances have nothing to do with the music. They just do elements with something playing in the background. And what I really dislike is the massive use of classical warhorses by skaters of a certain country. This results in an array of standard look alike programs. May be that's why I keep calling them boring.

What is Rika skating to this season? I can't remember. Yes, it's my personal problem but still I can't remember a single post questioning her music choices.

Alina is anything but boring. Why does this small factor - how they arranged the music - attracts so much attention? May be some people just need the basis for the critique? And the music cuts is an easy one: you just say: "Alina's music cuts are atrocious". And suddenly it looks like there is something wrong about her.

 

[Vandevska]

That is how Eteri trains students, that is the Russian figure skating school, it's tough, it's about putting in the numbers. Brian Orser even said the same in his interview and said that when Zhenya went to him she never had a second of spare time during her time with Eteri when training. The western way is way more calm and not as competitive. That has benefits, but when you're going from the Russian school to the Canadian, the switch isn't easy. Take it from someone who went from Eastern Europe to the west. While I enjoy some of the things in the west, I thought the Russian style benefited people in sports because it introduced discipline and what is hard work. I didn't quite get that in the west. And I think this is also some of the main reasons Zhenya has been struggling.

If that is the "Russian way of doing things", then why aren't all the other non-Eteri girls with Russian coaches doing so well? :think:

 

[anonymoose_au]

I just don't get no less than 100 posts outcry about Alina's music cuts. It's not like I came to concert and the conductor decided to play Moon Sonata the other way around doing arbitrary cuts on the way. I recently realized that many pairs' performances have nothing to do with the music. They just do elements with something playing in the background. And what I really dislike is the massive use of classical warhorses by skaters of a certain country. This results in an array of standard look alike programs. May be that's why I keep calling them boring.

What is Rika skating to this season? I can't remember. Yes, it's my personal problem but still I can't remember a single post questioning her music choices.

Alina is anything but boring. Why does this small factor - how they arranged the music - attracts so much attention? May be some people just need the basis for the critique? And the music cuts is an easy one: you just say: "Alina's music cuts are atrocious". And suddenly it looks like there is something wrong about her.

I don't think the dislike of the music cuts is directed at Alina, far from it! Most people blame Danill for that and feel he's doing Alina an unintended disservice - because there's so many cuts it kinda makes it difficult to get into, I feel that way, I think Alina plays the character well, but she seems to be chasing the storyline because it passes by so quick! In Carmen she seems to have more time to get into the character and bring it to life.

Then there's the whole not liking Phantom of the Opera music just generally, but that's not something Danill or anyone else needs to consider I guess, it's a matter of taste.

 

[nips]

If that is the "Russian way of doing things", then why aren't all the other non-Eteri girls with Russian coaches doing so well? :think:

Youre kidding Russian nationals are on higher level then worlds

 

[fabienne1996]

Medvedeva is done. Gracie Gold looks at her and thinks "Poor girl, glad I'm not her."

First no she is not done and second I have seen it the other way around to. Oh zhenya makes a mistake, and you hear she is done, she should retire ect. Alina makes a fault oh she is just 16 years old and going through a growing phase. Both don't deserve such pressure and such hate. And for everyone here who says zhenya is done for or she is not good enough. Than please have a stress fracture in the right ankle, which is the foot with whom the jumps are landed, and have a compression fracture at your spine and than go out and try to skate. Personally zhenya will always be my favourite. And really I thought in this forum there would be no haters etc. Seems I was wrong and I am frankly disgusted with those who comment like this. This is a 19 year old girl you are talking about!

 

[Vandevska]

Youre kidding�� Russian nationals are on higher level then worlds

I meant compared to Eteri's girls

I loved watching yesterday's sp live, I was even taking notes and shall do so today too! It's exciting for me.

But yeah, I don't think it's fair to say it like that as if only Russians work hard. The difference is that Eteri girls just work harder (excluding the pros and cons of it here).

 

[Fluture]

I just don't get no less than 100 posts outcry about Alina's music cuts. It's not like I came to concert and the conductor decided to play Moon Sonata the other way around doing arbitrary cuts on the way. I recently realized that many pairs' performances have nothing to do with the music. They just do elements with something playing in the background. And what I really dislike is the massive use of classical warhorses by skaters of a certain country. This results in an array of standard look alike programs. May be that's why I keep calling them boring.

What is Rika skating to this season? I can't remember. Yes, it's my personal problem but still I can't remember a single post questioning her music choices.

Alina is anything but boring. Why does this small factor - how they arranged the music - attracts so much attention? May be some people just need the basis for the critique? And the music cuts is an easy one: you just say: "Alina's music cuts are atrocious". And suddenly it looks like there is something wrong about her.

I think there can be reasonable criticism about Alina‘s music cuts. My problem is mainly that there are many beautiful parts of the program but they don‘t fit together as a whole. To me it seems like too many ideas were put into one program and the time of a SP is just not enough to really show those ideas fully. There is always a feeling of something missing that‘s lingering after I watch the program.

For example, let‘s look at her programs last year. The FS had an easy theme and it worked really well. It started slowly and then just built up until it ended spectacularly with the jumps like a firework. The music cuts blended into each other, it seemed like one cohesive program. The SP had many different music cuts as well and I remember many cries of them being atrocious, too. But I never personally had that issue because the storyline was clear and the momentum was building throughout the program. But with her SP now it‘s just that the story she‘s trying to tell is too complex and long for a SP and the music reflects that as it changes basically every 10 seconds. For example, the Carmen program is easier for me to watch because she has more time to get the music and it seems like one story. I have other issues with it but in general, the music cuts are better chosen than in the SP.

I also have never considered criticism about Alina‘s program as direct criticism to her. It‘s not her who choreographed the program after all, she‘s just skating to it and doing the best she could possibly do. I know, of course that some people use this argument of the music cuts being “atrocious“ (without even further complaining WHY they might feel so) to bash Alina, but I wouldn‘t listen to such people anyway. I think we can say that we have issues with a program and then explain and point it out but it doesn‘t have to be said everytime the topic is about Alina. It‘s not necessary and like always repeating the same criticism of one skater over and over.

And I also don‘t think Alina is boring at all. On the contrary, she had two different types of programs last year and sold them quite well. Dramatic for the SP, playful for the FS. Now she has a lyrical program, too and we can see she‘s actually doing a good job at interpreting what she‘s been given. The problem is just that the program as such is hard to keep up with for both skater and audience so I sometimes think she can‘t show her full potential with it than she could have with a simpler constructed program (music cuts wise, not transitions wise!)

About Rika: There was actually lots pf criticism on her SP because it‘s the typical princess-y stuff Japanese skaters usually do even though the FS clearly shows that she‘s capable of a different style. I personally find Beautiful Storm to be unique and very well constructed and I could explain in detail why I think so but my post is too long already so I won‘t.

 

[[email protected]]

Orser giving her a discount? I think the rate he charges (as far as I know) is reasonable considering the caliber of coach that he is.

He honestly doesn’t need Zhenya for his ‘reputation’

Sorry, I don't agree. A year ago he did not need her at all. Gabby was a WC medal winner up and running for the Olympics. But now, Gabby works on her problems, Lizbet went to Eteri. If nothing works out with Zhenya - and so far it is just lamentable - I am not sure what reputation as ladies' coach will he have with all his "caliber".

If she leaves him this season it will be his big failure. So that in his best interests is not to charge her at all before she come back to where she was before.

 

[nips]

Sorry, I don't agree. A year ago he did not need her at all. Gabby was a WC medal winner up and running for the Olympics. But now, Gabby works on her problems, Lizbet went to Eteri. If nothing works out with Zhenya - and so far it is just lamentable - I am not sure what reputation as ladies' coach will he have with all his "caliber".



If she leaves him this season it will be his big failure. So that in his best interests is not to charge her at all before she come back to where she was before.

I think both Brian and Zhenya will try to do their best regardless what it costs. They surely wont give up just because the rus fed refused refuses to cover all the expanses

 

[[email protected]]

I think there can be reasonable criticism about Alina‘s music cuts. My problem is mainly that there are many beautiful parts of the program but they don‘t fit together as a whole. To me it seems like too many ideas were put into one program and the time of a SP is just not enough to really show those ideas fully. There is always a feeling of something missing that‘s lingering after I watch the program.

Many skaters do not care about what they are skating to - I mentioned pairs but it is true about singles as well. Eteri's school give us a big service creating stories. They are not always transparent that's why sometimes they go as far as to tell what this story is about. Again, a lot of the Japanese are bad at linking skating and story-telling at all. That's why with all my reservations about Wakaba's hype I liked her Bond program a lot - it was like a breath of fresh air. I agree that it is difficult to see a cohesive story behind Alina's POTO program without explanations. It looks like at first she has fear and insecurity but then overcomes her fear and goes into the "lyrical mode". It more or less corresponds to how things were unfolding in POTO. So, again I don't understand the massive outcry that goes on and on.

About Rika: There was actually lots pf criticism on her SP because it‘s the typical princess-y stuff Japanese skaters usually do even though the FS clearly shows that she‘s capable of a different style. I personally find Beautiful Storm to be unique and very well constructed and I could explain in detail why I think so but my post is too long already so I won‘t.

I find Rika's skating not boring. And actually starting last season the Japanese are slowly but steadily getting better in this respect: Wakaba, Kaori. I just don't find Rika's programs as memorable. At the same time even it were the critique of her music choices it was either in threads that I don't read or it was very minor and I forgot. Nothing like in every competition thread with Alina there is a dozen posts about her "terrible music cuts".


....Ok, need to go to the rink. It's a big day today and I will post a report in the edge after all is finished.

 

[Kelti]

Catching up on the thread but couldn’t help to add my 2cents on the Olympic underdog topic.

I don’t particularly root for any skater in the Ladies discipline but I did follow closely last season through the GP and ISU competitions leading up to the Olympics.

For me personally, I thought it was very clear that it was Alina’s game to lose at that point of Pyeongchang if she skates clean. She was struggling with consistency in her SP since early season but proved she could deliver when it really matters. My buddy and I were watching the Olympics together and we knew after the SP, she pretty much had the gold medal quite secured in her hands. She was unstoppable with that FS last season!

Also, I didn’t follow any media preview coverages of Olympics so I wasn’t influenced by any particular narratives from certain media outlet. I took extra care to avoid them especially during the Olympic season because the overhyping always bother me to no ends. I much prefer to follow the sport and form my own opinion.

 

[Sugar Coated]

That's actually very easy. Just look at the ex-Eteri girls results after SP and compare them with Eteri girls. See?

Yes, there definitely seems to be a correlation between leaving Eteri and downward trajectory. But there may be multiple reasons for this. It's possible that these girls aren't as good under different coaches. Or its possible that the girls who leave Eteri (or are kicked out) were already on a downward trajectory (not being critical of any skater in particular). Maybe they can no longer longer perform at the same level due to injury or burn out or struggling with transitions to puberty.

Eteri has so much talent I could see her neglecting or actively kicking out the girls who aren't keeping up in practice or the writing is already on the wall with their career. So its possible that people who leave are not necessarily worse off because of a new coach but rather the girls already struggling or having issues (physical, mental, growth related, etc.) end up leaving Eteri.

 

[Tolstoj]

I meant compared to Eteri's girls

I loved watching yesterday's sp live, I was even taking notes and shall do so today too! It's exciting for me.

But yeah, I don't think it's fair to say it like that as if only Russians work hard. The difference is that Eteri girls just work harder (excluding the pros and cons of it here).

Because no other coach in the planet right now is matching Eteri's results with the ladies, not just in Russia. For 3-4 years now Eteri has been like 50 steps ahead the rest of the competition in ladies figure skating.

What was the last time a coach brought 2 ladies at the olympics and winning gold and silver? not even Brian managed to do so with Hanyu and Fernandez (Gold and Bronze in Pyeongchang)

 

[Tolstoj]

That's actually very easy. Just look at the ex-Eteri girls results after SP and compare them with Eteri girls. See?

I still think that's a curse more than anything.

We've seen Medvedeva skating clean programs in practice, we've seen Tarakanova skating great programs, Sakhanovich is getting better, and i think Panenkova also could do a lot better than this.

Less competitive environment, and maybe lighter training relaxed these girls which is maybe good for their body but then that also brings insecurity with the elements in competition.

 

[neusw]

Because no other coach in the planet right now is matching Eteri's results with the ladies, not just in Russia. For 3-4 years now Eteri has been like 50 steps ahead the rest of the competition in ladies figure skating.

What was the last time a coach brought 2 ladies at the olympics and winning gold and silver? not even Brian managed to do so with Hanyu and Fernandez (Gold and Bronze in Pyeongchang)

S/Z and P/J in pairs 2010, and ice dance the last 3 olympics. However it’s a different situation with these couples disciplines, where there are way fewer top coaching teams so all top couples are centralized within a few schools.

 

[Vandevska]

Because no other coach in the planet right now is matching Eteri's results with the ladies, not just in Russia. For 3-4 years now Eteri has been like 50 steps ahead the rest of the competition in ladies figure skating.

What was the last time a coach brought 2 ladies at the olympics and winning gold and silver? not even Brian managed to do so with Hanyu and Fernandez (Gold and Bronze in Pyeongchang)

Yeah but the comment was "that is the Russian figure skating school". And another example: If that is true, then why are the guys doing so bad?

 

[DSQ]

Orser mentioned in an interview this year that its more than $110 now but not much higher. $110 was 2010 rate during Yuna's time.

I’m guessing this doesn’t include choreography, dance training and personal fitness training? Competition earnings are basically nothing how do countries afford this? Wow.

 

[Scott512]

No, even if Medvedeva skates clean, she doesn't deserve the third spot.

She needed to WOW everyone in Russia, and this was the worst SP she did all season. What reason does she have to get the third spot? Take the year off, get your s*** together and come back next year. It's been disappointing and I'm a huge Medvedeva fan, but this was just.....stupid! She's malfunctioned at ALL her competitions and just when she needed to deliver, she performs even worse.

This.

Whatever strategy Orser is using, it's not working, and if he doesn't realise it after 6 months.....

He's seriously damaged her reputation, and then I don't get why he's going in the media and saying crap like "if Zhenya skates clean she will win nationals"

Um really? She hasn't even scored over 65 in a short program....

Medvedeva is done. Gracie Gold looks at her and thinks "Poor girl, glad I'm not her."

I love Alina. She comes across as a very sweet pleasant girl. Very mature for her 16 years. I also enjoy watching her skate. She is far above most other skaters as far as I am concerned. It disgusts me when someone feels that is OK to continually ridicule someone because they have some kind of vendetta. She has worked very hard and deserves every medal she has gotten.

I agree. I read this on twitter today and it kind of summed it up for me -

Alina Zagitova makes a mistake in her program
Everyone: Her career is over! Overscored!!
Evgenia Medvedeva makes a mistake in her program
Everyone: She just needs time.

It's not fair for ALina. I just hope she doesn't realize how people have been unfair to her even in her own country. Yeah I've picked up on that Medved of just needs time a year-and-a-half and all of this and then people overreact if Zagitova does not win a gold medal and they will overreact today if Sasha or someone else catches her for gold.

I am hoping Evgenia can find her form. But it's an uphill battle for her now with all the problems she's had this season with her new coach. As greater coach as he is his reputation will take a hit if he cannot turn this around with Medvedeva. Because if Zhenya tayed with her former coach she would be at or very close to her olympic-level which was outstanding by anyone's standards.

 

[Vandevska]

Because if Zhenya tayed with her former coach she would be at or very close to her olympic-level which was outstanding by anyone's standards.

We can't know this. This just a what-if scenario.

But I agree that it's been unfair to both girls from different aspects.