2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

[Fluture]

Take another look in your crystal ball, my friend

https://giphy.com/gifs/edbassmastershow-cmt-the-ed-bassmaster-show-3o72F5tx9CEhSDxonC

But their jumps aren‘t as good as Liza‘s already, why would they be better or at least of the level in a few years? Standard is jumps deteriorate when skaters get older. Liza seems to be the exception here but she‘s an extremely naturally talented jumper to begin with and has been taught the correct and ideal technique as a small child already.

 

[fabienne1996]

But their jumps aren‘t as good as Liza‘s already, why would they be better or at least of the level in a few years? Standard is jumps deteriorate when skaters get older. Liza seems to be the exception here but she‘s an extremely naturally talented jumper to begin with and has been taught the correct and ideal technique as a small child already.

Let's just wait and see. Well zhenya is reworking her jumps and technique . And I hope for alina sake that she doesn't get worse but better soon. But looking at her , seeing the foto of her swollen ankle in just don't know.

 

[Fluture]

Let's just wait and see. Well zhenya is reworking her jumps and technique . And I hope for alina sake that she doesn't get worse but better soon. But looking at her , seeing the foto of her swollen ankle in just don't know.

I meant technique wise. Liza has the best jumps in the business right now and I think even as fans we can give credit where credit is due. My comment didn‘t mean Alina and Zhenya are done, on the contrary. It isn‘t even needed to have perfect technique to win and I seriously do not mind seeing Alina and Zhenya jump, I find great beauty in Alina‘s 3Lz-3Lo or Zhenya‘s edge jumps and her 2A now. I just said that what Liza has is an inherent ability to jump plus having been taught the ideal technique at a young age.

 

[atsumiri]

But their jumps aren‘t as good as Liza‘s already, why would they be better or at least of the level in a few years? Standard is jumps deteriorate when skaters get older. Liza seems to be the exception here but she‘s an extremely naturally talented jumper to begin with and has been taught the correct and ideal technique as a small child already.

and here we are)))

And where was Liza for the last 3 seasons? and her jumps? :sarcasm:
don't answer.

 

[Fluture]

and here we are)))

And where was Liza for the last 3 seasons? and her jumps? :sarcasm:
don't answer)

Read my post above. I said specifically that Liza‘s jump technique isn‘t the only thing needed to win, that it takes more than that. If you don’t have motivation and the will to work hard, you can have all the talent in the world, it won‘t matter. To me it seems Liza lost her confidence and motivation and only found it this year again.

I just think that we should give her credit for her good jumps. Why not? And if you don‘t want me to answer, then why quote in the first place? Seriously, what‘s the big issue? We all know Zhenya‘s and Alina‘s technique isn‘t the best. And so what? Does it take away anything they have accomplished? No, not at all.

Liza has other problems in her skating and I personally enjoy watching Zhenya and Alina skate more than her. But I still can applaud her for her correct technique even though she didn‘t win everything the last few years. I don‘t know what the problem is.

 

[Mathman]

As the famous german coach Jutta Müller, who coached the great Gabriele Seyfert, used to say, "you need to know how to work with women".

Not, "who coached the great Katarina Witt"?

OT -- According to Wikipedia, as a skater herself Jutta Müller won the 1949 East German Championships in women's pair skating with partner Irene Salzmann. This category was created due to the lack of men in Germany after World War II.

 

[caballe]

So in that case for example, Liza's 3lz can give same BV as Anna's 4Lz which is based more on rotation. In this way, you give more weight on the athletic abilities that are developt after human body reaches it's full gowth. As in athletics, it's very rare someone junior to jump/run higher/faster than someone senior.

That's what we have GOE's for.

Also, why should the "human body after full growth" be given "more weight" than "human body before"? It's still a human body, it's about how you make it work. And the age limit for entering the seniors has been 15 for decades. Yet we have had many champions beyond the age of 18-19 in the meantime. Juniors doing technically superior elements is a new phenomenon and it's irrational to pretend that they have always been physically advantaged than seniors. Also, Sasha and Anna get excellent height on their quad jumps, which is why they are able to do quads in the first place.

You might as well argue that a bigger athlete should receive more BVs for their jumps than smaller athletes of the same age since they must be more "grown".

 

[GoddessMinerva]

I think it would be fair to raise the age at 17. As you said, the mental and body differences between a pre-puberty and post-puberty lady are essential in the way they skate. If the system is to be fair for everyone and to give them equal chances, the age should be raised. But the change must be done with some years in advance before its implementation in order to give the coaches time to adapt, maybe to adapt their training methods and so on.
On the other hand, the raise would impact the popularity of the discipline. I mean, for example this Rus Championship: it was surely more excited to have the juniors there, even to win, than to see Stasya, Alina, Sofya, Evgenia struggling.

I always found the skating age cut offs a bit funny coming from a long term artistic gymnastics fan and only a more recent skating fan. In AG, it's sixteen with the year. I think this has become less of an issue in AG(even though the old cut off was 15 within the year, many still argued about 15 year olds competing as seniors at all) as in the last decade the average age has risen a lot. Gymnasts are lasting longer, some winning their first medals in their 20's. But, I wouldn't have an issue with figure skating doing something similar - 17 within the year. Though I know skating has the seasonal cut off, but I think if the age was raised to 17 by the end of the calender year - it would be reasonable to have 16 year olds compete.

 

[dobrevaria]

Thats's absolutely crazy how some people inside the Russian federation expect Medvedeva to be like before, only a few months after she moved to Orser. I disagree with almost every points Elena Tchaikovskaia made. Evgenia has been struggling this season, yes, but I have the impression it was mostly due to nerves, that it was a mental thing. I was at the practices myself, and she nailed all her jumps. She was perfect 97% of the time. Maybe one step out here and there, but nothing alarming ; in fact, she was quite consistent. It was only in competiton she was messing things up, and she said herself the problem was not technical, but mental.
Actually, Evgenia's technique is better than before. I see that mostly on the axel, but even her lutz is better (however, she still flutz so the issue is not solved). Morever, her jumps are less muscled than before. I see improvements, and I'm really proud of her for that. Eteri technique is not made for adult women, it's made for little girls, and trying to impose that on post-puberty athletes never end well. That's why I'm happy to see improvements in her technique. It's a long and difficult process, but it's worth it.
I don't understand her comments about Evgenia "temperament, incredible lightness" which apparently "disappeared". For me, her FS at Russian nationals was just gorgeous and she looked fierce. She skated with confidence, and it was superb (yes, even with the fall!). She was fast and her jumps (especially the 3S3Lo) were good.
In any case, I've the impression that Evgenia struggled a lot before mainly because of nerves. But after her disastrous SP at Russian nationals, she saw the support of the audience. She did a broadcast on Instagram later on, which was quite short, but where she explained she was shocked to see all this support. I suspect Medvedeva was extremely nervous this season, because she had the impression she didn't have the support of her own people. But now, she had the possibily to see that people still supported her, and I think it allowed her to let go, and that's why she gave us her confident, gorgeous free skate. That's also why I think she came back to social media.
As mentionned earlier in another comment, I feel the Russian federation expected her to be perfect all the time, except on rare occasions. They clearly didn't expect a "leader" to struggle so much. That's why they are starting to doubt her now, and it's kind of understandable.
However, I do trust Zhenya a lot. I have the impression that her FS at Russian nationals was a turning point, and she will now be able to let go. Of course, I'm not sure, and nothing is easy, it's a long and difficult process. But I know that Zhenya will prove them wrong, I know she will.

It's a pity Zhenya is just a substitute for Universiades. I wanted to see her compete more this season...Maybe, she will do some senior Bs? I doubt it, but who knows. I think sending Konstantinova to so many competitions is stupid, and a risky move. I think the Russian federation forgot what happened last year and the fact that they almost lost three spots. If it's possible, I think it would be less risky to send Tuk to the Worlds. She was on fire all season, and her scoring potential is much higher. Konstantinova is not as consistent as Tuk this season (actually, she even finished behind Medvedeva at IDF) and her scoring potential in Russia will clearly not be the same in international competitions. I would say Samodurova is a safe bet, because she has been crazily consistent all season. She will not score in the 220, but she can maybe get 210/215. Maybe.
Alina is worrying me, but if she is clean (and even if she is not totally clean), she will be the winner at Euros. It will be different for the Worlds, since there are the Japanese (and it's happening in Japan) but if she is clean, she will at least get a medal. I hope she is not injured, or something like that. Daniil said she had a little problem with her leg, but nothing important, so I hope everything is okay. The only way Alina is not getting a medal at Euros and/or Worlds is if she bombs her programs, like she did at the 2018 Worlds in Milan, or at the last Russian nationals.

 

[Fluture]

Thats's absolutely crazy how some people inside the Russian federation expect Medvedeva to be like before, only a few months after she moved to Orser. I disagree with almost every points Elena Tchaikovskaia made. Evgenia has been struggling this season, yes, but I have the impression it was mostly due to nerves, that it was a mental thing. I was at the practices myself, and she nailed all her jumps. She was perfect 97% of the time. Maybe one step out here and there, but nothing alarming ; in fact, she was quite consistent. It was only in competiton she was messing things up, and she said herself the problem was not technical, but mental.
Actually, Evgenia's technique is better than before. I see that mostly on the axel, but even her lutz is better (however, she still flutz so the issue is not solved). Morever, her jumps are less muscled than before. I see improvements, and I'm really proud of her for that. Eteri technique is not made for adult women, it's made for little girls, and trying to impose that on post-puberty athletes never end well. That's why I'm happy to see improvements in her technique. It's a long and difficult process, but it's worth it.
I don't understand her comments about Evgenia "temperament, incredible lightness" which apparently "disappeared". For me, her FS at Russian nationals was just gorgeous and she looked fierce. She skated with confidence, and it was superb (yes, even with the fall!). She was fast and her jumps (especially the 3S3Lo) were good.
In any case, I've the impression that Evgenia struggled a lot before mainly because of nerves. But after her disastrous SP at Russian nationals, she saw the support of the audience. She did a broadcast on Instagram later on, which was quite short, but where she explained she was shocked to see all this support. I suspect Medvedeva was extremely nervous this season, because she had the impression she didn't have the support of her own people. But now, she had the possibily to see that people still supported her, and I think it allowed her to let go, and that's why she gave us her confident, gorgeous free skate. That's also why I think she came back to social media.
As mentionned earlier in another comment, I feel the Russian federation expected her to be perfect all the time, except on rare occasions. They clearly didn't expect a "leader" to struggle so much. That's why they are starting to doubt her now, and it's kind of understandable.
However, I do trust Zhenya a lot. I have the impression that her FS at Russian nationals was a turning point, and she will now be able to let go. Of course, I'm not sure, and nothing is easy, it's a long and difficult process. But I know that Zhenya will prove them wrong, I know she will.

It's a pity Zhenya is just a substitute for Universiades. I wanted to see her compete more this season...Maybe, she will do some senior Bs? I doubt it, but who knows. I think sending Konstantinova to so many competitions is stupid, and a risky move. I think the Russian federation forgot what happened last year and the fact that they almost lost three spots. If it's possible, I think it would be less risky to send Tuk to the Worlds. She was on fire all season, and her scoring potential is much higher. Konstantinova is not as consistent as Tuk this season (actually, she even finished behind Medvedeva at IDF) and her scoring potential in Russia will clearly not be the same in international competitions. I would say Samodurova is a safe bet, because she has been crazily consistent all season. She will not score in the 220, but she can maybe get 210/215. Maybe.
Alina is worrying me, but if she is clean (and even if she is not totally clean), she will be the winner at Euros. It will be different for the Worlds, since they are the Japanese (and it's happening in Japan) but if she is clean, she will at least get a medal. I hope she is not injured, or something like that. Daniil said she had a little problem with her leg, but nothing important, so I hope everything is okay. The only way Alina is not getting a medal at Euros and/or Worlds is if she bombs her programs, like she did at the 2018 Worlds in Milan, or at the last Russian nationals.

I feel a bit stupid to answer to such a long post with only a small statement but I can only say that I agree with everything being said in this post.

 

[moriel]

Not, "who coached the great Katarina Witt"?

Yep just like that.
Not sure about reasons, i suppose because of the order and maybe time when Tchaikovksaia interacted with Muller.

 

[jenaj]

Interesting thread. Are they actually considering raising the age limit (again)? I don't think that is necessary. What I do think is necessary is increasing the weight of the second mark to bring it more in line with the higher tech marks we are see with the quad babies. One--Anna, I think--got 89 in TES in her long program. The highest PCS possible is only 80 (and no one has ever gotten 80). Maybe the ladies PCS shouldn't be factored anymore now that they are doing the same jumps as the men. But I also have a problem with PCS in general in that it also rewards tech over artistry. I would eliminate the transitions mark altogether and make it part of composition (which used to be choreography). Most people think it's part of choreography to begin with, complaining about "empty" programs, etc. Also, skaters get points in TES for difficult entries/exits--ie, transitions! Having only 4 marks would give more weight to P/E and I, which younger skaters usually have not developed as well as older skaters. With these changes, only the younger skaters who had developed both sides to their skating would challenge for the top spot.

 

[moriel]

Thats's absolutely crazy how some people inside the Russian federation expect Medvedeva to be like before, only a few months after she moved to Orser. I disagree with almost every points Elena Tchaikovskaia made. Evgenia has been struggling this season, yes, but I have the impression it was mostly due to nerves, that it was a mental thing. I was at the practices myself, and she nailed all her jumps. She was perfect 97% of the time. Maybe one step out here and there, but nothing alarming ; in fact, she was quite consistent. It was only in competiton she was messing things up, and she said herself the problem was not technical, but mental.
Actually, Evgenia's technique is better than before. I see that mostly on the axel, but even her lutz is better (however, she still flutz so the issue is not solved). Morever, her jumps are less muscled than before. I see improvements, and I'm really proud of her for that. Eteri technique is not made for adult women, it's made for little girls, and trying to impose that on post-puberty athletes never end well. That's why I'm happy to see improvements in her technique. It's a long and difficult process, but it's worth it.
I don't understand her comments about Evgenia "temperament, incredible lightness" which apparently "disappeared". For me, her FS at Russian nationals was just gorgeous and she looked fierce. She skated with confidence, and it was superb (yes, even with the fall!). She was fast and her jumps (especially the 3S3Lo) were good.
In any case, I've the impression that Evgenia struggled a lot before mainly because of nerves. But after her disastrous SP at Russian nationals, she saw the support of the audience. She did a broadcast on Instagram later on, which was quite short, but where she explained she was shocked to see all this support. I suspect Medvedeva was extremely nervous this season, because she had the impression she didn't have the support of her own people. But now, she had the possibily to see that people still supported her, and I think it allowed her to let go, and that's why she gave us her confident, gorgeous free skate. That's also why I think she came back to social media.
As mentionned earlier in another comment, I feel the Russian federation expected her to be perfect all the time, except on rare occasions. They clearly didn't expect a "leader" to struggle so much. That's why they are starting to doubt her now, and it's kind of understandable.
However, I do trust Zhenya a lot. I have the impression that her FS at Russian nationals was a turning point, and she will now be able to let go. Of course, I'm not sure, and nothing is easy, it's a long and difficult process. But I know that Zhenya will prove them wrong, I know she will.

It's a pity Zhenya is just a substitute for Universiades. I wanted to see her compete more this season...Maybe, she will do some senior Bs? I doubt it, but who knows. I think sending Konstantinova to so many competitions is stupid, and a risky move. I think the Russian federation forgot what happened last year and the fact that they almost lost three spots. If it's possible, I think it would be less risky to send Tuk to the Worlds. She was on fire all season, and her scoring potential is much higher. Konstantinova is not as consistent as Tuk this season (actually, she even finished behind Medvedeva at IDF) and her scoring potential in Russia will clearly not be the same in international competitions. I would say Samodurova is a safe bet, because she has been crazily consistent all season. She will not score in the 220, but she can maybe get 210/215. Maybe.
Alina is worrying me, but if she is clean (and even if she is not totally clean), she will be the winner at Euros. It will be different for the Worlds, since they are the Japanese (and it's happening in Japan) but if she is clean, she will at least get a medal. I hope she is not injured, or something like that. Daniil said she had a little problem with her leg, but nothing important, so I hope everything is okay. The only way Alina is not getting a medal at Euros and/or Worlds is if she bombs her programs, like she did at the 2018 Worlds in Milan, or at the last Russian nationals.

So far Tchaikovskaia - who is the chairman of the coaches board - has been extremely sensible all along.
While we can agree or disagree, i would say that her oppinion has more weight than a fan's oppinion.

I also disagree about nationals being a turning point. She already had a comeback once, in Canada, and it didn't prevent Grenoble or SP at nationals from happening. I dont believe that she will suddenly put out olympic level skates if she is sent to euros or nationals, and i prefer to see her next season.

 

[caballe]

Interesting thread. Are they actually considering raising the age limit (again)? I don't think that is necessary. What I do think is necessary is increasing the weight of the second mark to bring it more in line with the higher tech marks we are see with the quad babies. One--Anna, I think--got 89 in TES in her long program. The highest PCS possible is only 80 (and no one has ever gotten 80). Maybe the ladies PCS shouldn't be factored anymore now that they are doing the same jumps as the men. But I also have a problem with PCS in general in that it also rewards tech over artistry. I would eliminate the transitions mark altogether and make it part of composition (which used to be choreography). Most people think it's part of choreography to begin with, complaining about "empty" programs, etc. Also, skaters get points in TES for difficult entries/exits--ie, transitions! Having only 4 marks would give more weight to P/E and I, which younger skaters usually have not developed as well as older skaters. With these changes, only the younger skaters who had developed both sides to their skating would challenge for the top spot.

But that's only if we assume that older skaters can't do transitions, entries/exits as complex as the juniors because otherwise they wouldn't make a difference anyway. Everything else being equal, the superior interpretation skills would still give the older ones an advantage. Also, theoratically the older ones should have developed more skating skills and complex bladework which means they should be able to get even more marks on SS and TR than the younger ones.

But I agree about the increasing the weight of PCS. The ratio they use to factor it in feels unnecessary now.

 

[Arbitrary]

The PCS is used to be the decision maker and a tie breaker.

Also the max PCS is indeed 80, but min is zero.
TES can be pretty high, 90+ for ladies as we see, but cannot be too low, by design.

PCS is already if too much weight and were used very well to demote one specific skater in RusNats (I'm forbidden to whisper her name).
Ok, I do agree she wasn't in position to win.

There's always a possibility that a certain sportsperson's developed too much advantage over the rest and won few titles in a no concurrence mode, leaving us without a well deserved intrigue. But it's always temporary.

 

[Fluture]

So far Tchaikovskaia - who is the chairman of the coaches board - has been extremely sensible all along.
While we can agree or disagree, i would say that her oppinion has more weight than a fan's oppinion.

I also disagree about nationals being a turning point. She already had a comeback once, in Canada, and it didn't prevent Grenoble or SP at nationals from happening. I dont believe that she will suddenly put out olympic level skates if she is sent to euros or nationals, and i prefer to see her next season.

But most fans aren‘t even talking about Worlds or Euros. We are talking about the Universiade. Because it makes absolutely no sense to send Stasya to all three competitions when we‘ve seen how this ended last year. I actually would not want her at Worlds this year and I‘m very serious about this because like you said, she probably wouldn‘t put out skates on the necessary level to compete at the top or at least keep the 3 spots.

I think Nationals could be a turning point because it was more that she saw the extreme support from her countrymen there, remember that she said it troubled her to think that they hated her. And that going forward, she has realised she is loved and supported. I don‘t know and we obviously won‘t ser whether it‘s true or not but I think Nationals helped her learn a lesson and also be more confident again. We will see. But that‘s exactly why I‘m so angry about Universiade. Because she needs another competition this year, contrary to Stasya who should focus on the main starts - Worlds and Euros.

 

[zounger]

That's what we have GOE's for.

Also, why should the "human body after full growth" be given "more weight" than "human body before"? It's still a human body, it's about how you make it work. And the age limit for entering the seniors has been 15 for decades. Yet we have had many champions beyond the age of 18-19 in the meantime. Juniors doing technically superior elements is a new phenomenon and it's irrational to pretend that they have always been physically advantaged than seniors. Also, Sasha and Anna get excellent height on their quad jumps, which is why they are able to do quads in the first place.

You might as well argue that a bigger athlete should receive more BVs for their jumps than smaller athletes of the same age since they must be more "grown".

Because human body after full growth gives better athletic abilities. GOE are not exactly that. They are great of execution, even with +5 they are not more than the base value of a +1 rotation. I was speaking about BV.

For me it's not the same athletic ability Karen Chen's, Tsurskay's Lutz and Satoko's. What I described doesn't prevent juniors to show less athletic abilities. For example Trusova can jump even now 60+cm in her Toe (4T) jump. But if she losses her rotation speed at 17 and can still jump 60+cm in 3T the base value will be similar lets say. Since the athletic ability is still there...

 

[madison]

So far Tchaikovskaia - who is the chairman of the coaches board - has been extremely sensible all along.
While we can agree or disagree, i would say that her oppinion has more weight than a fan's oppinion.

I also disagree about nationals being a turning point. She already had a comeback once, in Canada, and it didn't prevent Grenoble or SP at nationals from happening. I dont believe that she will suddenly put out olympic level skates if she is sent to euros or nationals, and i prefer to see her next season.

Tchaikovskaia is from Sambo, and from what I saw from other interviews, she is more pro-Eteri.

 

[atsumiri]

You might as well argue that a bigger athlete should receive more BVs for their jumps than smaller athletes of the same age since they must be more "grown".

yes... All people are different.
Some of them 173cm or more like Tsurskaya already at the age of 14. Some of them 148cm like Tursynbayeva at the age of 14.)).

 

[atsumiri]

Tchaikovskaia is from Sambo, and from what I saw from other interviews, she is more pro-Eteri.

LOL you're so funny)
What it even has to do with Eteri...