Yagudin vs. Plushenko

[antmanb]

I surely know that Yags had several jump mistakes but, to make sure I am correct in describing them, I went to youtube to watch the program again.
Guess what? I couldn't find it! So it must have been bad

If he made jump mistakes at Europeans i must have misremembered it - i think i meant the GPF.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

We do not know what would have happened if Yags had continued his career. The competitions between these two were always very close and unpredictable. Even if Yags was the better stylist, Plush was the better technician, IMO.

I'm not sure i'd say Pluschenko was the better technician, jumper yes, but the technical mark is more than just jumps, and i think in terms of spins and footwork Yagudin was better than Pluschenko.

Ant

 

[NansXOXOX]

Plushenko was technically superior to Yagudin. Yes, he had two bobbles, but his program was much more difficult: 4-3-3 combo, 3A-1/2-3F combo (Yagudin had only a 3A).

Just one small correction, please. Plushenko did indeed try the 4-3-3 combo, but his last jump was not fully rotated and he stepped out of it, it did not count, leaving the combination a 4-3 while Yagudin did get full credit for his 4-3-2. That error and the double salchow instead of a triple probably kept Plushenko's score below Yagudin's on jumps alone without even considering spins or footwork. The planned jumps might have been more difficult, but the plan didn't happen.

 

[Zanzibar]

Great discussion topic - thanks for starting the thread!

It's interesting to me that Alexei has far greater respect for Plushenko's talent - both artistic and technical, and both in the past and present - than many posters on this thread, LOL.

 

[Tonichelle]

Alexei won - fairly
Tim should have been second...

and Mike shouldn't have been so low after the SP (I know totally random, but I'm still upset that because of a lousy draw he got low marks. He skated great!)

 

[jennylovskt]

No question about it. Yagudin was the winner. He delivered the most beautiful SP I've ever seen and the best LP of that evening. I loved Plushenko's LP, but his unsteady jumping technics pulled him down. He should be silver.

Personally, I wouldn't consider Tim in the same league with Yagudin and Plushenko. (Sorry to say that, but that's what I truly think.) He was the quad king at that time. That was all he has - the quad. His artistic ability was poor. He had improved it a little after 2002, but it was very limited. I was wondering if people would think and rate him differently if Tim were in a different nationality.

 

[Mathman]

I was wondering if people would think and rate him differently if Tim were in a different nationality.

Like Li, for instance. Another skater who could rotate in the air but for some reason was never able to convey any kind of musical expression to the audience.

On the other hand, when Shen and Zhou first came on the scene the conventional wisdom was, sure he can throw her into row 40, but (compared to teams like Sale and Pelletier and Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze), where's the artistry? And look at them now!

 

[Dee4707]

Plushenko had a more difficult program (technically and artistically), he had better line, posture, musicality, everything...except for a few jump bobbles. Tim was technically the best of that night, but he was below Plush.

Does anyone else agree w/ me?

I don't agree with you. Tim, Alexei and Plushenko are/were great jump technicians. The problem is it didn't pan out with Plushenko, that's why when Plushenko fell, it was a shock.

Dee

 

[Zazanuka]

I thought Goebbel should have been second in the LP behind Plush: therefore, given how 6.0 worked, I think it should have been...1. Plush, 2. Tim, 3. Yag. Plushenko had a more difficult program (technically and artistically), he had better line, posture, musicality, everything...except for a few jump bobbles. Tim was technically the best of that night, but he was below Plush.

Does anyone else agree w/ me?

I agree. But my dream podium was 1 Plush 2 Abt 3 Yagudin

 

[temperboy28]

Alexei won - fairly
Tim should have been second...

and Mike shouldn't have been so low after the SP (I know totally random, but I'm still upset that because of a lousy draw he got low marks. He skated great!)

I agree Mike Weiss was way undermarked in the SP at the 2002 Olympics(
and Plushenko ridiculously held up for that matter). However remember at the 2002 U.S Nationals Weiss was given a huge gift to even be on the team. He should have been 7th or 8th in the short program with 2 major errors and was crazily propped up to be 5th, where he could take 3rd with even a 3rd place in the free skate. So he in a way deserved to not be given a chance by the judges at the Olympics since he didnt deserve to be there in the first place.

It was similar to how I felt about the 92 Olympics. People say Wylie was robbed of gold but he didnt even deserve to be there. Mark Mitchell should have won the 92 Nationals but was put below Bowman, and ridiculously Wylie, then an injured Eldredge was given a bye over him as well. So I felt no pity for Wylie being "robbed" of the Olympic Gold, he didnt even really deserve to be there and should feel lucky to win a medal at all.

 

[kittyjake5]

I agree Mike Weiss was way undermarked in the SP at the 2002 Olympics(
and Plushenko ridiculously held up for that matter). However remember at the 2002 U.S Nationals Weiss was given a huge gift to even be on the team. He should have been 7th or 8th in the short program with 2 major errors and was crazily propped up to be 5th, where he could take 3rd with even a 3rd place in the free skate. So he in a way deserved to not be given a chance by the judges at the Olympics since he didnt deserve to be there in the first place.

It was similar to how I felt about the 92 Olympics. People say Wylie was robbed of gold but he didnt even deserve to be there. Mark Mitchell should have won the 92 Nationals but was put below Bowman, and ridiculously Wylie, then an injured Eldredge was given a bye over him as well. So I felt no pity for Wylie being "robbed" of the Olympic Gold, he didnt even really deserve to be there and should feel lucky to win a medal at all.

Boy you sure put a different spin on what happend than what I remember. But to each his own. What I want to know is how does a skater's placement in a prior competition have to do with the judging at SLC or the 92 Olympics.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well, I'm with Temperboy on this. The 2002 Olys SP was just about the best competitive routine of Weiss, His quad was complete but two footed. In CoP he would have gotten beaucoup points just for the rotations.

While I think Plush is a better competitor that SP day back then was not his best, and he should have come up less than he did. Held up definitely.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

How much are we going down memory lane.?

Tim was better than Plush in 2003 Worlds.

Abt was better than Yags in that famous Euros.

Plush won the 2006 Olys on his name and his jumps. Nothing else.

Joe

 

[_Ladybug_]

Oh God, Yagudin ALL THE WAY. He was just amazing. Actually, Plushenko used to be my favourite until that season. Winter and The Man in The Iron Mask were masterpieces.

 

[dfj]

Plushenko, my fav. Never liked Yags - sore loser, bad winner.

That said, however, I was watching some old tapes last night and came across the men's event at Worlds 2001 in Vancouver. Yikes!! Yags' SP - I'd forgotten just how fabulous it was to be there.

There are no skaters today that are even close to those two.

 

[Tonichelle]

So I felt no pity for Wylie being "robbed" of the Olympic Gold, he didnt even really deserve to be there and should feel lucky to win a medal at all.

Well he says blessed not Lucky, but I think Paul would agree with you.

as for if I agree, not sure that I do... I only saw Mike's LP that year and it was fuzzy and black and white because we had poor reception... and my biased opinion was that it could have gone either way. I don't remember much save for Matt's fall on the 3axel...

but that's old news... there's been another olympic cycle...

 

[Nan]

Alexei Yagudin was brilliant at Salt Lake City. Winter and The Man in the Iron Mask are masterpieces along with Lawrence of Arabia, Gladiator and Overcome. I have been watching skating since Scott Hamilton and Peggy Fleming were skating but Alexei's skating has everything that I don't think I will see anyone like him again in my lifetime. Plushenko was held up in the short program at SLC and should not have even been in fourth place after falling on his quad. He could jump but that is about all. When he won in 2006 there was no life to his program, just jump, jump and was one of the most boring programs in men's skating. He just skated around and did not even try to put passion in his skating because he knew he would win no matter what he did.

As far as Paul Wylie goes, he was a fantastic skater also. When he skated he made you feel emotions and chills. I watched his long olympics program the other night and he was superior that night, enough said.

I have been privileged to see Paul and Alexei skate live and I enjoyed every minute they were on the ice.

 

[Tonichelle]

I'm jealous, I've always wanted to see Paul skate... but I'll take what I can get... he's a great speaker too

 

[dizzydi7]

I've never liked Plushenko's skating. I will agree that he is an awesome jumper but I don't feel figureskating is a jumping contest. For me, Plushenko has no artistry unless one considers waving hands around in time to the music artistic.

However Alexi Yagudin is an artist and had the jumps too. In my opinion he is one of the better skater during the last decade.

Dizzy

 

[Nan]

I'm jealous, I've always wanted to see Paul skate... but I'll take what I can get... he's a great speaker too

One of the greatest thrills was when Paul won his silver metal and his first appearance after winning was with Stars on Ice at Hershey, PA. We had tickets for the show and this was an unexpected surprise. What a treat that was! Saw him skate quite a few times and he was just wonderful, I really miss seeing him skate.