2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating | Page 808 | Golden Skate

2018-19 Russian Ladies' figure skating

It does work for her. Why would she fix it? I agree.

The real issue is that there are very young kids involved and so they themselves are not really capable or legally allowed to make decisions on their own. If it were only adults being trained (like Morisi or Elizabet only) , I would 100% agree with what you said. But, these are mostly minors so decisions are made by the federation or their parents and the children’s health is what is risked. Most of Eteri’s students do decline her services when they reach an age where they are allowed to decided for themselves.

What are you talking about? If a kid does not want to skate making this decision for oneself do you see parents, federation, and coach beating her or depriving her of food or whatever until she gets back on ice? The girls themselves don't imagine life without skating. Those who want to quit, they quit. Like my friends' daughter who at the age of 11 decided that she has different priorities in life.

And there are ambitious kids who want to win - not only ambitious parents. And those ambitious kids want to be trained by Eteri because her students win. It was like that even when Yulia and her mother gave up on their previous life to be trained by Eteri. I would assume that now it is much more true.

Finally, Tsurskaya, Panenkova, Tarakanova, etc. left Eteri before getting to a legal age. Hence, I don't think that the hypothesis: "Most of Eteri’s students do decline her services when they reach an age where they are allowed to decided for themselves" is true.
 
Come on, the interview was in russian. Actually there are two different words for those you describing above: " revnost' "=jealousy, " zavist' "=envy. I won't check, but I think it was zavist'

I agree with you. The worlds mean different things which is what I said in my post. I think Averbukh may have meant envy instead and something could have gotten lost in auto translate.

I gave the quote in Russian. He said: "ревность" = "jealousy"
 
What are you talking about? If a kid does not want to skate making this decision for oneself do you see parents, federation, and coach beating her or depriving her of food or whatever until she gets back on ice? The girls themselves don't imagine life without skating. Those who want to quit, they quit. Like my friends' daughter who at the age of 11 decided that she has different priorities in life.

And there are ambitious kids who want to win - not only ambitious parents. And those ambitious kids want to be trained by Eteri because her students win. It was like that even when Yulia and her mother gave up on their previous life to be trained by Eteri. I would assume that now it is much more true.

Finally, Tsurskaya, Panenkova, Tarakanova, etc. left Eteri before getting to a legal age. Hence, I don't think that the hypothesis: "Most of Eteri’s students do decline her services when they reach an age where they are allowed to decided for themselves" is true.

I don’t think most parents or Eteri beat their kids to get them to skate. There was no such suggestion in my post. You chose to view my post in the most negative light possible. What I am talking about is the very real difference in children’s and adults cognitive abilites which have been confirmed by scientific research into brain development. Children aren’t capable of making good decisions that accurately consider possible long term outcomes. There brains aren’t fully developed. Thus, they can’t fully determine if a certain training method is best for them. Also, while your friend may have allowed their daughter that decision ( good for them) not all parents are the same. Parents and coaches don’t need to beat or starve children to control their decisions. Parents and coaches have a huge impact on the lives of their kids. Thus, they have legal and moral responsibility to care for the long term physical and mental health of their kids. Teenagers in the later stages of adolescents 16-21 begin to develop the ability to reason more, and are able to form more rational decisions ( the age varies greatly depending on the individual). So, I would imagine those girls you mentioned may have reached that stage or their parents may have made the decision for them.

My post was not really about Eteri it was about the moral responsibilty of all parents and coaches. Many coaches and parents make decisions that may not be best for the long term health of skaters. I was responding to a poster who suggests everyone training was able to make their own fully logical decision about whether to train at a particular school. Research into children’s brains shows that isn’t true. That’s all. You can choose to deny science. I don’t.
 
LOL, Dudakov is indeed wearing a #teamtutberidze jumper :-)

My Moscow friend told me there are some serious suspicions among Rus fan-community about Eteri team is being signed by Louis Vuitton brand. Their main argument is: ok, look, Eteri team has been flashing in kiss'n'cry area various LV's accessories lately, like 'last 6 months' lately. A lot of random accessories. And always solemnly LV. This can't be a coincidence. And no other brand in sight, but LV exclusively. Hmm, well, I see how Eteri and Daniil are the face of the operation. But also other people noticed that Dudakov is quite absent at KnC lately at all big competitions, but he stays right next to kiss'n'cry area because Eteri, Daniil and their young skaters are interacting with him often. I remember Alyona (as usual mischievous one) trolled him while sitting at K'n'C on recent Rus Nats. Hmm, he is a techie and is known for being not big on interviews & stuff, therefore perhaps naturally he prefers to act behind the scenes. If this thing with LV is real then Dudakov is def getting his share as well, because he def looks very happy with Eteri inside this Crystal team.

If this LV connection is true, well, it is rather smart of Louis Vuitton's PR department. Figure skating attracts a very sophisticated audience with a good taste and artistic demands. If you think about it, contracting a high-profile coaches to casually flash LV's accessories in kiss'n'cry area is actually a very good move - big official ISU competitions are highly-televised all over the world and have high TV-ratings among middle class. Product placement and low-key brand-advertisement is perfect for figure skating k'n'c. At the right place and for the right audience. Although I am not a fan of Louis Vuitton brand, but I see how they can use consistency of Khurstalny's skaters and how they want to spread the psychological hook into FS audience: Louis Vuitton brand -> victory -> success -> consistency. This is a very good subconscious association line. Eteri and her team gonna show up at the K'n'C very often, and very often on a good note. You can bet your money on it. Perfect for a wise product-placement campaign for a long term - a simple story of happy youngsters getting their medals on + hugs, kisses and handshakes all around, and modern globalized coaches being next to them (who, of course, casually sporting "LV" letters on their accessories ;)).

Speculators gonna speculate, alligators gonna alligate, but if ..IF.. this is true, I demand LV to issue a special little accessories and scarfs for Tina, Masaru, Bonya, Shipa, Iriska and other pets as well (whom am I missing?). They are as important as the coaches! :dev2:
 
IF.. this is true, I demand LV to issue a special little accessories and scarfs for Tina, Masaru, Bonya, Shipa, Iriska and other pets as well (whom am I missing?). They are as important as the coaches! :dev2:

Yes.
 
I agree that many coaches are not able to help students with recovery but many statements in your comment aren’t factually true.

Tara Lipinski was not coached by Frank Carroll she was coached by Richard Callaghan. He is currently banned by the USFS. His methods were probably very similar to Eteri. He screamed and weighed students all the time. He also sexually harassed students which is the reason for his ban. Most of Frank’s students on the other hand had quite long careers. Michelle Kwan, Linda Fratianne. The students who left him did not leave broken they continued to compete. He is known as a very calm, serious coach. The focus on weight is a problem with the entire figure skating community.

Also, Gabby is not really coached by Orser. She is coached by Lee Barkell. But, she has been competing since 2012 so she has not has a short career. She has been highly inconsistent throughout her career and has not been dropped by her coach. Most successful Orser students have been able to compete for years.

Rafeal Artunian also has female figure skaters who compete for years.

Some coaches are similar to Eteri in that they only have success ( up to this point— the technque has gotten better maybe someone from 3A will survive puberty) coaching kids. But, you are making a false equivalency to all other coaches. Mishin and Moskvina ( certainly great coaches) are not the only coaches who successfully coach adults. Most coaches do. Just not Eteri up to this point.

Oopsy, i don't know how that came out, sorry for the mistake but the point still stands about how all these top coaches take skaters (at what age depends on the methods) and as soon as they are not competitive, they're out. (either ignoring them, or sometimes directly asking them to leave)

I don't recall Eteri screaming and sexually harassing students, so again all these unverified bold claims.

Brian Orser is listed as Gabrielle's second coach, so technically he's coaching her, he sits with her in the KnC during the most important competitions (Worlds, Nationals) and in the past i recall him taking the merits for bringing her to the podium at Worlds (just sayin')

With Mishin and Moskvina i said something completely different: not just that they teach adult coaches, but they take not very great talents and actually try to make them competitive. Look at Mishin this season: you probably know Samodurova and Tuktamysheva but this season that group actually really tried to make everyone successful, even the boys. And it's worth noting that Samodurova (as talented as she is, one of my favourites) has never been one of their best talents from Russia and now she is European Champion, a title more popular previous talents like Sotnikova, Sotskova or Radionova never won.

Other coaches also take weaker skaters but often as a way to experiment things they then maybe apply to their top students, or they take them to make money but not with the goal of making them successful for real.

About Eteri, at this point we know her way of coaching and i don't believe there is much else we don't know: she created from the start a super competitive environment of very young girls and boys with the goal of making everyone successful, trying new things with them and learning by their mistakes and then correcting these mistakes with the next generations. If you re-read Polina Tsurskaya's interview she did earlier this season, you'd realize that they created a group that is so competitive where the skater doesn't really need someone who screams at him/her, they see the next generations doing things better than them every single day in the rink, so it's either try to close the gap and work more (and risk) or rest and stay behind.

I agree that's not everyone, if you like more mature skaters this is not your cup of tea, but that's her system and the results speak for themselves.

If you look at junior nationals you understand why she is so obsessed with 12-13 years old: everything looks perfect (look at Valieva's SP), it's too early for the skater to actually think about what they're doing so they just do it.

At the end of the day she is pushing the sport forward more than any other coaches before her, it's unprecedented (cause yes the sports evolved in the past but not this fast), and as much as other coaches can bash her, she brought the best results in figure skating in Russia of the past 4-5 years, she earned that position and RusFed knows that group pushes the others to work more, if you start to bring someone else in that position, Russia will lose dominance in ladies figure skating. It's a very cynical pragmatic way to see things, but it is what it is.
 
Just one nasty thought ... if Eteri's star pupils really were interchangable, who'd be the real star? :dev3:
 
You chose to view my post in the most negative light possible.

My post was not really about Eteri it was about the moral responsibilty of all parents and coaches.

Well, I replied to the following:

The real issue is that there are very young kids involved and so they themselves are not really capable or legally allowed to make decisions on their own.

Most of Eteri’s students do decline her services when they reach an age where they are allowed to decided for themselves.


I remember myself at the age of 14 when I told my parents who just spent a big chunk of their salary on my kimono that judo is not for me. I cited an example of my friends' daughter who decided to quit figure skating on her own. I could bring many more examples to support that I don't believe that today's teenagers are not capable of making decisions for themselves.

And what could be the less negative light to view your phrase that most of Eteri's students decline her services when they reach the legal age if I don't understand what you are talking about? Zhenya is the only case that I can attach to that. But this is a very specific case of her losing the biggest event to a younger team mate. And it has little to do with the theory of skaters dropping Eteri as soon as they reach legal age because they are not happy about her training methods.
 
Just one nasty thought ... if Eteri's star pupils really were interchangable, who'd be the real star? :dev3:

Eteri Tutberidze.

For real, i think you'll look at all of this 10-20 years from now and you'll see a lot of russian girls winning everything, they change every 2-3 years but most of them are all from Eteri.

In a way it was similar with Tarasova but TAT also managed all these skaters to stick out more i think also because she was a better choreographer and more capable at finding programs that can make her skaters unique, Eteri-Daniil tend to use the same formula so many times.

Granted that is something i think Eteri will learn as time goes by.
 
some of her past comments have not been the greatest but her most recent split with zhenya was really not as dramatic as some people make it out to be. the only thing that was bad was her comment about how zhenya asked her to keep alina in juniors. apart from that it was pretty tame no one got trashed, and both sides stopped commenting on it almost immediately.

i found the yuna/brian split way more dramatic

Yeah nothing new under the sun concerning Russia's youngsters or Eteri methods or coach-student relationship. Let's count the american girls with 3-4 years old careers in gymnastics. McKayla Maroney competed in seniors only 3 years. Rebecca Bross, Nastia Lukin, Shawn Johnson, etc. all had short senior careers. But when US is dominating the sport the americans are not so virulent in their criticism. Japan has pretty much the same methods Russia has, but only Russians and especially Eteri are evil.

What Russia does in figure skating with the ladies is monstruos, but what US does in gymnastics is not? Want to see more of the russian ladies? Change the 3 per country rule. People act as if youngsters are not as interesting as the seniors, look in this forum who has the most popular boards, the most views on video platforms. Hell, I fall in love again with figure skating during the last 4 years thanks to russian ladies.
 
Yeah nothing new under the sun concerning Russia's youngsters or Eteri methods or coach-student relationship. Let's count the american girls with 3-4 years old careers in gymnastics. McKayla Maroney competed in seniors only 3 years. Rebecca Bross, Nastia Lukin, Shawn Johnson, etc. all had short senior careers. But when US is dominating the sport the americans are not so virulent in their criticism. Japan has pretty much the same methods Russia has, but only Russians and especially Eteri are evil.

I would not lump gymnastics and figure skating together as if they were interchangeable. Nowadays it is very common for female gymnasts from any country, not just US, to be in it for one quad and then look for something else after the olympics. Especially when they are from big federation with lots of depth and they are plagued by injuries (Johnson, Maroney and Bross) . Biles, Mustafina or Murakami are exceptions. And that trend IS being criticised. But it is another sport. Why would the success of the US gymnastics program keep the Figure skating community from criticising Eteri's method.
I personally am neutral to her methods, but I dont think your comparison to gymnastics makes sense. Especially when they are being criticised for it, and even more now with that huge Nassar abuse scandal.

That being said, I wouldn't lump all those gymnasts together and say their careers were short. Nastia Liukin competed senior nonstop from 2005 - 2009 and had a (failed) comeback in 2012. That's pretty long to me.
 
Yeah nothing new under the sun concerning Russia's youngsters or Eteri methods or coach-student relationship. Let's count the american girls with 3-4 years old careers in gymnastics. McKayla Maroney competed in seniors only 3 years. Rebecca Bross, Nastia Lukin, Shawn Johnson, etc. all had short senior careers. But when US is dominating the sport the americans are not so virulent in their criticism. Japan has pretty much the same methods Russia has, but only Russians and especially Eteri are evil.

What Russia does in figure skating with the ladies is monstruos, but what US does in gymnastics is not? Want to see more of the russian ladies? Change the 3 per country rule. People act as if youngsters are not as interesting as the seniors, look in this forum who has the most popular boards, the most views on video platforms. Hell, I fall in love again with figure skating during the last 4 years thanks to russian ladies.

Also, a lot of these girls have "short careers" because they are college-bound but can't do elite gymnastics and college level at the the same time. If you have already been at the pinnacle of the sport, but want to join a gymnastics community in college, I wouldn't be surprised if the latter option was chosen. Jordyn Weber tried to help out with the UCLA gymnastics team and stay elite but she found it wasn't feasible and retired.
 
Yeah nothing new under the sun concerning Russia's youngsters or Eteri methods or coach-student relationship. Let's count the american girls with 3-4 years old careers in gymnastics. McKayla Maroney competed in seniors only 3 years. Rebecca Bross, Nastia Lukin, Shawn Johnson, etc. all had short senior careers. But when US is dominating the sport the americans are not so virulent in their criticism. Japan has pretty much the same methods Russia has, but only Russians and especially Eteri are evil.

What Russia does in figure skating with the ladies is monstruos, but what US does in gymnastics is not? Want to see more of the russian ladies? Change the 3 per country rule. People act as if youngsters are not as interesting as the seniors, look in this forum who has the most popular boards, the most views on video platforms. Hell, I fall in love again with figure skating during the last 4 years thanks to russian ladies.

Amazng post Georgya. Very fair and very interesting analysis comparing Russian girl figure skaters and American girl gymnasts. And you didnt even mention the disgraceful and outrageous US gymnastics scandal the girls were put hrough. I think we know which one has been worse and harder for girls to deal with and its the non Russian one.

I was very disappointed Lukin, Johnson and Maroney did not last.

More than 3 works well in GPF and JGPF. Its merit based so Russia deserved more than 3 spots just like if they got less than 3 spots through merit.
 
I don’t think most parents or Eteri beat their kids to get them to skate. There was no such suggestion in my post. You chose to view my post in the most negative light possible. What I am talking about is the very real difference in children’s and adults cognitive abilites which have been confirmed by scientific research into brain development. Children aren’t capable of making good decisions that accurately consider possible long term outcomes. There brains aren’t fully developed. Thus, they can’t fully determine if a certain training method is best for them. Also, while your friend may have allowed their daughter that decision ( good for them) not all parents are the same. Parents and coaches don’t need to beat or starve children to control their decisions. Parents and coaches have a huge impact on the lives of their kids. Thus, they have legal and moral responsibility to care for the long term physical and mental health of their kids. Teenagers in the later stages of adolescents 16-21 begin to develop the ability to reason more, and are able to form more rational decisions ( the age varies greatly depending on the individual). So, I would imagine those girls you mentioned may have reached that stage or their parents may have made the decision for them.

My post was not really about Eteri it was about the moral responsibilty of all parents and coaches. Many coaches and parents make decisions that may not be best for the long term health of skaters. I was responding to a poster who suggests everyone training was able to make their own fully logical decision about whether to train at a particular school. Research into children’s brains shows that isn’t true. That’s all. You can choose to deny science. I don’t.
It is kind of obvious that when it comes to minors,the decisions concerning their lives including picking or leaving a coach are made mostly or together with parents. But you think parents are not capable to make best decisions in kids' best interests, and if only kids had grown-up brains they would decline Eteri's training method. But how do you really know that they would choose to decline not contrary?

Teenagers at 16-18 develop more hormones and rebelling rather than brains. When they really grow up and mature and get smarter,they might in fact look back and realise that Eteri was right,like it was with Polina Shelepen.

This issue really depends on particular person's character and particular parents and family dynamics rather than coach. Some would grow up and thank their parents for their achievements,some would hate them for unhappy childhood,like Yuna Kim. Or take Tarakanova who decided on her own to drop out of figure skating at 13 and her parents just went along. Whether it is kid's own decision or his parents', they are still always free to choose to train at particular school or not.
 
For those following Kazakhstan's Lilbet :agree2:

& Eteri's :agree2:
& Sergey's :agree2:
& Daniil's :agree2:

ladies


here is the schedule.


Ladies SP Thursday 7th Feb
Starts 12.40 pm Anaheim, NY 3.40 pm
GMT 8.40 pm, CET 9.40 pm, Moscow 11.40 pm, Almaty 2.40 am Friday


Ladies FS Friday 8th Feb
Starts 7 pm Anaheim, NY 10 pm
GMT 3 am Saturday, CET 4 am Saturday, Moscow 6 am Saturday, Almaty 9 am Saturday



Go Lilbet!! :hap85:
 
Back
Top