Aging Figure Skaters

[Joesitz (RIP)]

On a more general topic. AGE.

We all know that the kids fool around with every conceivable move the seniors have. It is no surprise that they grow up to seniors with an arsenal of jumps for their era not to mentions glorious spins. (Not so sure about basics and footwork)

My problem with age is that I do not know of any competitive skater to be able to continue adding new and greater jumps into their repertoire

Stars on Ice have a number of 'older' champions who skate, imo, even better than when they were in eligibles. None of them can do quads now without it being iffy as it is with 3x3s of the ladies. As for Shizuka she already had her 3x3s before she went into show business. Others just limit themselves to 3tx3t and nothing more and even that it is iffy,

Eligibles once they reach the 21 mark, can we expect to see addional jump rotations than we saw since they were 12 on up to 20? The Kwan/Cohen era settled on 3x2s. Are they not too old for learning a 3z x 3r? Irina did have a 3x3 fairly regular up to a point but she too, seems to have given way to aging. As for the boys, could we see a quint from Alexi if he was not injured? He got the quad before he was 20 and that was it.

So can I conclude that you're arsenal of jumps ceases new variations by 20/21?

Joe

 

[Sylvia]

Angie Lien, a U.S. veteran senior lady who competed at 2007 Nationals, has been practicing the triple flip for many years but didn't incorporate it into her programs until this season. She has landed the triple flip in competition a few times this season (as well as in Nationals practices in Spokane, but not in the comp.). She turned 26 earlier this year.

Canada's Lesley Hawker, 25, was a late bloomer and reportedly got all of her triples fairly late, although I can't remember when exactly.

 

[NJSk8Fan]

I sometimes wonder if the skaters waited til they were older, stronger, more fully grown, before they start doing so many of the more difficult jumps, if they'd have a longer career and also be able to do the jumps, more jumps, better jumps, as they age.
How many 17-25 year old skaters do we hear about having hip and knee surgeries?
It's bad enough to think that now that I, myself, a non skater, have to worry about arthritis and am starting to feel aches and pains I never felt before.
I can't imagine how young these skaters who work so hard at skating, and in the process beat their bodies up, are going to feel when THEY get to age 40-50-60!
Kristy Yamaguchi is one skater that I think could've continued in eligible with strong jumps for quite some time past her "retirement" from eligible skating. I think it's only recently, and expectedly so after having 2 babies and getting older, that her jumps aren't quite what they used to be.

 

[soogar]

The reason why skaters don't wait until later to get their triple jumps is because mastering triple jumps at a late age and doing them consistently in competition isn't something that is easily done. There are LOTS of skaters who start skating in their teens and many of them do get triple jumps (these are mostly guys) however they are not consistent with them.

Time also plays a big role. Skating rinks are geared for afterschool schedules. There are older skaters with the desire but lack the funds or ice time to truly master triple jumps. It takes a lot of time and money and unfortunately this game is set up that the ideal way to get all the triples and compete well is to get them early and have parental support. A majority of parents aren't going to dedicate fund for serious training in lieu of college (and it would be stupid to do so) unless the kid shows potential early on.

 

[Tinymavy15]

i think that the older s katers have thier tequiuce and thier limits set. they will skate the way they have always skated or a little mmore wtaered down, but rarely try somthing new. Maybe thye fear injury to much.. and they don't want to disruped the training schedule that they have formed over the years. look at kimmie missner. she used the triple axel to get herslef onto the scene. to get noticed. THen once everybody knew her name, she is focusing more on artisty. As skaters mature they tend to focus on artisty vs jumps. same story with miki.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can not see a healthy Kwan or a Sasha doing 3lutz x 3loop. to me, they are too old. Perhaps they might land one or two in practice and by luck one in a competition. But those combos will never be consistent as their 3x2s.

Shizuka has not done any real higher level jump, but she does do her 3x3s quite well. Can't imagine her doing a quad, however, a quad from some lady at a young age, seems reaslistic to me in exceptional cases.

Kristy may well be a good jumper but she would not win any comps without consistent 3x3s now! She's a show skater - a good one but without the need for such high level combos.

IMHO, AGE DOES MATTER for jumping. But not for beautiful skating.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

IMHO, AGE DOES MATTER for jumping. But not for beautiful skating.

Joe

ITA:agree:

 

[demarinis5]

Well I do think that age is a factor for jumps ( I am talking about the Ladies). If a skater has a long amateur career and say they begin doing the jumps at age 14 or 15 (in some cases 13 ) by the time they are 20 or 21 that skater has taken a lot of pounding on the body. As the skater ages the body begins to break down from the constant jumping and injuries start to set in and of course that will start to affect the skaters jump capabilities as they age.
So I would say yes jumping is for the young. Of course there are always exceptions. IMO

 

[NJSk8Fan]

Originally posted by Joesitz

IMHO, AGE DOES MATTER for jumping. But not for beautiful skating

I also totally agree with that statement!

 

[isk82]

I remember that Brian Boitano added a triple loop for one or two pro competitions after not having done if for quite a long time. I think he had stopped it due to an injury. Katarina Witt added a triple sal (I think) when she went back to the Olympics after being a pro.

 

[chuckm]

Speaking of aging figure skaters, here are a few that may be considering retirement this year or next:

Alisa Drei (FIN) - just turned 29
Elena Sokolova - just turned 27
Fumie Suguri (JPN) - turned 26 in December
Julia Sebestyen (HUN) - turns 26 in May
Yoshie Onda (JPN) - turned 24 in December (and has mentioned retirement)

Trifun Zivanovic (SRB) - turns 32 next month. He is on the Worlds roster, but I'd be surprised if he shows up to compete.
Sergei Davydov (BLR) - just turned 28 (but is skating very well this season)
Chengjiang Li (CHN) - turns 28 next month and suffers from asthma
Ilya Klimkin (RUS) - 26 in October; has never quite regained his form since his surgery and year away from competition

 

[layman]

For those who say that skaters over twenty-five are over the hill and should put themselves out to pasture...do you all remember a certain geriatric Russian lady who won the World Championships (the first Russian lady ever to do so) at a very advanced age? Suppose she had taken your advice (and the advice of the Russian Federation) and retired at 25.

I think that skaters should have the option to compete as long as they feel like it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For those who say that skaters over twenty-five are over the hill and should put themselves out to pasture...do you all remember a certain geriatric Russian lady who won the World Championships (the first Russian lady ever to do so) at a very advanced age? Suppose she had taken your advice (and the advice of the Russian Federation) and retired at 25.

I think that skaters should have the option to compete as long as they feel like it.

I think you missed the point. No one said anything about 'over the hill'. It's about a skater's more developed body attempting to do an extra rotation on a jump learned and consistent at age 16-20.

Skaters over 25 are the most representative of figure skating and imo, the best of what they have to offer.

Joe

 

[Teenes]

Are we talking about men or women here? And present or past skaters? Kurt Browning was almost 22 when he landed the first quad, was the first to land the 3sal/3loop when he was 24, and was the first to land 3 3/3 in one program when he was 25... He did the quad again when he was 30, and was also doing the 3sal/3loop then as well. Adding new jumps after he went pro..maybe not (though he did increase his repertoire of footwork). But he did most of his new jump accomplishments (well, and most of his senior eligible career) after the age of 21.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Are we talking about men or women here? And present or past skaters? Kurt Browning was almost 22 when he landed the first quad, was the first to land the 3sal/3loop when he was 24, and was the first to land 3 3/3 in one program when he was 25... He did the quad again when he was 30, and was also doing the 3sal/3loop then as well. Adding new jumps after he went pro..maybe not (though he did increase his repertoire of footwork). But he did most of his new jump accomplishments (well, and most of his senior eligible career) after the age of 21.

If all that is true, and I am a big fan of Kurt, then he is the exception to the rule as as are one or two others mentioned, imo. My point was a general expectation of skaters entering the 21 plus years without a quad (men) or a 3zx3r (ladies) , will their bodies be able to add either of those jumps to their programs in competition?

Joe

 

[mememe]

Are we talking about men or women here? And present or past skaters? Kurt Browning was almost 22 when he landed the first quad, was the first to land the 3sal/3loop when he was 24, and was the first to land 3 3/3 in one program when he was 25... He did the quad again when he was 30, and was also doing the 3sal/3loop then as well. Adding new jumps after he went pro..maybe not (though he did increase his repertoire of footwork). But he did most of his new jump accomplishments (well, and most of his senior eligible career) after the age of 21.

Boitano added several "new" jumps/combinations between 21-24. He did double flip-triple toe-triple toe at 1985 nationals, but did his first triple flip-triple toe in competition the 1986-87 season, when he was 22-23. That remained in his repoertoire was very consistent from its first appearance throughout the first 10 years or so of his pro career, too. The Tano lutz, although experimented with when he was a teenager and done once in competition in 1982, didn't become a regular item in his repertoire until the 1986-87 season, when he was 22 turning 23. The spread eagle entry into that jump was added after he went pro, in about 1989 or 1990, when he was about 26, and he still has that jump, which he "added" in his mid-20s, in his repertoire today. He added triple toe-triple loop in the 1993-94 season, and did it quite regularly in practice, but because of his knee injury, had to stop doing that, although as mentioned earlier, he did add the triple loop back into his repertoire about 1998 in some pro routines, and did one again last year in the Latin on Ice show.

Joe Sabovcik did his first (and as far as I know, only) triple axel combination (triple axel-double toe) in a pro event back in about 1996. He did triple axel as an amateur, but had never done a combination with it until some 12 years later. And as Teenes pointed out, Kurt added some of his biggest jumps between 21 and 25 or so. Viktror Petrenko, I believe, added the triple axel-triple toe when he was about 21 or so.

Does age affect jumping? I think indisputably so, because as your body ages, and has been pounded for years and years, it becomes harder for your body to be able to handle the practice necessary to make something very consistent. But it isn't impossible and has been done in the past (when, admittedly, they perhaps hadn't been pounding their bodies with triple-triples and quads from the age of 10 or 11). Also, many of the "former generation" skater stopped trying to add revolutions to their jump repertoire and/or stopped or reduced doing the more difficult or "pounding" jumps when they turned pro, because they wanted to preserve their legs, back, hips, etc., so they could continue to perform for a long time. They continued to do triples, but why pound the body with training triple flip-triple toe or quad toe when they aren't needed to win medals? Show/pro comp audiences appreciate a triple toe-triple toe as much as a triple flip-triple toe (many couldn't tell the difference), and the former is less likely to cause injury and more likely to be consistent without as much pounding practice needed.

Nowadays, skaters don't "turn pro" and stay in the eligible ranks for a longer time, which means they need to protect their bodies for many years if they want to continue to compete, so they tend to not add anything (and often reduce their repertoire) after age 20 or 21 because, like the earlier skaters, they want to be able to skate for a long time, but unlike those earlier skaters, they need to have at least some of the more "pounding" jumps to remain competitive. And many already have some serious, chronic injuries that do not react well to the pounding it takes to add a consistent "bigger" jump element to their repertoire (especially when they're also more or less forced to include a lot of contortionist moves in their spins and MITF which put a lot of strain on backs, hips, etc).

So, you're probably right in thinking you won't see eligible skaters add a lot of newer, bigger jumps to their repertoires after age 20 or 21, but not necessarily because age (at least through the mid- to late-20s), by itself, makes it impossible, but because age makes it inadvisable, considering what they need to do to win medals, and the amount of pounding their bodies have taken up to that time may make it impossible to train a new, more difficult, move sufficiently to make in consistent.

 

[Teenes]

I'm wondering if that's more a product of the current generation of skaters, rather than the past. Brian Boitano was born in Oct 1963 so he was 24 when he was in the Battle of the Brians in 1988 (and I know he was working on a quad and almost landed it in the same event Kurt landed his first, he just 2-footed it). Brian Orser was born in Dec 1961 so he was 26 when he was in the Battle of the Brians, and I heard he also was landing quads in 1987 on practice ice.

If I've done my math correctly, Scott Hamilton was 25 when he won the 1984 Olympics though I don't know about his technical history enough to know if he was adding difficult jumps to his repertoire.

Oh and Kurt Browning was born in June 1966 so if you do the math...1988 landing the first quad, etc etc...

Oops I just noticed mememe beat me to this answer. And in far more depth, and far more intelligently.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Chiagjiang Li is that old??? i thought that he was one of the upstarts that would perhaps get better with time. I remeber seeing him skate really well a few years ago and landed two beautiful quads. Since then he has skated very inconsistant programs and lacks artisty. i see that his focus has been on the jumps and when he dosen't land them, he dosen't have anything to fall back apon. surprising, becaue his mom is a coach.....

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I believe some posters have faith in skaters to do numerous quads and 3As at any age.

Joe

 

[heyang]

I don't think you can compare men vs women in this topic.

Girls go through puberty earlier. Hips and breasts can throw off rotational capabilities. I think that's one of the reasons why it is harder for the ladies to add rotations when they are older.

On the other hand, the boys go through puberty later. At this time, their muscles as athletes become more honed and they generally have more power. This helps them in gaining the height in the air to get in additional rotations, assuming they can adjust their timing due to the additional growth in height. Shoulders become broader, which assist in the ability to rotate (think of the shape of a spinning top - broad closer to the top and narrow at the bottom - typical althletic guy figure.) So, it is possible for men to add rotations into their early 20's and some longer.