Thought experiment: artistic judges

[gkelly]

Let’s imagine that the ISU has decided to split judging panels into Technical judges (responsible for assessing element GOEs and Skating Skills) vs. Artistic judges (responsible for evaluating the performance qualities of whole programs).

Artistic judges should already have some high-level expertise in evalution of movement-based performing arts and related fields. They do not need to have prior knowledge of figure skating before starting to train as artistic skating judges.

We can figure details later about the logistics of recruiting and deploying this new group of judges, such as what levels of skating it would apply to, how many such judges would be needed, whether they would be paid.

Let’s say there will be online training and also at least one in-person judging school either at a live competition or at a rink with live demonstrations.


I want to start by discussing what kind of shared knowledge base we want to develop among this judging pool.

Feel free to respond to any or all of the following questions:

1) If someone who considers themselves qualified to judge skating from an artistic perspective wants to apply for this kind of judging appointment, what kind of previous experience would be positively considered for acceptance into the artistic judging program?

2) What facts about skating technique do artistic judges new to the skating world need to understand, as context for their evaluations?

3) What facts about current and historical skating rules that affect performance options should these judges be familiar with?

4) What iconic historical skating performances should these judges be familiar with? Maybe broken down, for singles, into figures-era free skating, post-figures 6.0-era freeskating, and IJS era.

5) Should the same judges be trained to judge both singles and pairs? Or start with singles and get an additional appointment for pairs after they’re more experienced? Ice dance would be separate from the beginning.

6) Should the definitions and descriptions of the Composition and Performance program components remain as is? Would it be better to split Interpretation separate from Performance again? Should the component scores be totally rewritten entirely from scratch, and if so, how?

Have fun!

 

[4everchan]

I would love for a musician to be involved in evaluating musical performance. A highly trained musician could indeed judge all disciplines. I look at figure skating but I also "listen to it". Are the skaters aware of pulse, musical phrasing and highlights ? For me, it's a big plus when I feel that the skater is truly connecting with music.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I would love for a musician to be involved in evaluating musical performance. A highly trained musician could indeed judge all disciplines. I look at figure skating but I also "listen to it". Are the skaters aware of pulse, musical phrasing and highlights ? For me, it's a big plus when I feel that the skater is truly connecting with music.

That used to be done at lower level competitions in the BC Region. As well as the real judges, a panel of three people from various arts (music, dance. acting, etc) chose one skater from each event, and then at the end decided on a junior and senior over-all winner for the extra Artistic Awards. No marks, just a choice, hopefully unanimous but at least two out of three.

 

[gkelly]

So would we want separate awards at skating competitions, e.g., Most Musical evaluated by experts in musical fields? No effect on the results of the competition as scored by judges and tech panels, but a separate award that some skaters and some fans might consider more prestigious than the technical results?

Any other categories that would benefit from having awards evaluated by experts in outside artistic fields rather than by skating officials or by fan vote?

 

[ladyjane]

@Diana Delafield just brings the most delicious proposals. The competitions could continue as always, but there would be seperate awards for musicality (@4everchan could volunteer I am sure!), dance quality, acting in a performance, etc.

A lot more fun to have a musicality award (for example) based on what a musician thinks than those silly (sorry if you don't think the awarding ceremony is cheesy and cringy simultaneously) ISU skating Awards.

 

[Mathman]

I am not enthusiastic about this approach. The glory of figure skating is the "whole ball of wax" concept. Having different panels of experts to evaluate one aspect of a performance over another seems to me to be going in the wrong direction.

I think I am a minority of one in being OK with the judging procedures currently in place. The big jocks who bring the dazzling tech to the table -- well, it is a sport after all. They have a built-in advantage, just like the fastest runner in a hundred yard dash is favored over the slower guy.

But hold on there! Big jumps on paper don't mean a thing if you don't execute them. Plus, if you do a lot of big jumps and the other guy also delivers adequate tech and does so with panache nd flair, while weaving the elements into an esthetically pleasing performance -- well, then #2 has a pretty good chance of walking away with the gold medal when all the GOEs and PCSs are tallied. For me, it usually works out satisfactorily.

 

[gkelly]

It would certainly be more efficient to keep the official judging more or less as is -- with whatever rule tweaks and training improvements might be possible -- and then also add a separate award or several to recognize skaters whose artistry may transcend the technical qualities of their performances.

The skaters who execute the best technique with the best artistry combined will get the standard medals. If a Jason Brown or Josefin Taljegaard (for example) gets some other recognition beyond wherever their technical content places them in the main competition, that's just extra.

Same as any fan-vote awards are extra and have no effect on competition results.


Changing the actual scoring system to bring in non-skating-experts to contribute to the official competition scoring would be a much more significant undertaking. But if anyone wants to argue that it could be done in a way that is fair and feasible, here is a thread to discuss potential options.

 

[4everchan]

I'd prefer that the artists scores count for real. Otherwise, why would anyone care?

 

[gkelly]

So how

I'd prefer that the artists scores count for real. Otherwise, why would anyone care?

So how could that work?

Let's assume that the arts experts will submit scores similar to the current CH and PE components, though edits are possible to reflect how actual artists think about the qualities to be measured, as opposed to how skating officials have traditionally thought about them. (And I personally would like to see IN and PE separated again.)

*Do you have suggestions for how to write guidelines or rubrics that the arts experts would apply in scoring the performances?

*How does one qualify to become such an artistic skating judge? How do you establish your prior expertise to be accepted into this judging corps?

*Is musical interpretation the only thing being judged by outside music/dance experts? Or should qualities such as acting ability, performance ability in the sense of charisma/projection, or spatial composition, or aesthetics of body line also be considered?

*Should outside experts come only from the fields of dance and music, or are individuals with professional in other art forms encouraged to participate? How would the different kinds of expertise offered by, say, a ballerina vs. a rock musician vs. a film director vs. an abstract sculptor be synthesized into the criteria?

*How much do these outside judges need to know about figure skating technique? Not so that they will be evaluating it directly, but so that they understand what is possible and what is valued, which will help them understand why skaters and choreographers make the kinds of choices they make.

*What should these outside judges know about current skating rules? So that they understand what is allowed or forbidden and what is rewarded, which will help them understand why skaters and choreographers make the kinds of choices they make.

*What should these outside judges know about skating history? So that they will have a good sense of how original vs. derivative current programs are.

 

[Magill]

I made this point quite a few times on different past threads that I would love to have real artists judging artistry but I'd much rather have professional dancers than musicians on the panel judging choreography, presentation and interpretation of music, as they are much more expert in expressing music through movement, in different dancing styles, genres etc. than musicians themselves. I have seen quite a few dancers, be it top ballerinas, modern dance students, hip hop dancers, and anything in between, commenting on various skating videos for fun or asked to do so by journalists, and the amount of details they can see, name and point to in no time or preparation at all was just sooo impressive, and really so much more substantive than anything I ever heard on the matter from "just skating" experts, They can really explain a lot of things happening on the ice based just on their prof training and experience. Moreover, they can really easily relate to different styles, different genres and choreographic ideas, and personal styles, even quite far from their own. I admit I love it.
And no, I don't think they should be relegated to grant some "special" unimportant award. They should be just judging the selected components on the main panel instead of regular judges who appear - and are - amateurs in comparison. I spoke about it before and I will always vote for it. I also think they would be much less prone to give undeserved PCS to jumpers or fed faves. I guess they might be less prone to fed politics, and give better justified, more objective and more fair scores.
I guess it might also be a kick to choreographers to be more creative if they knew their work would be judged by real professionals in the field.

 

[noskates]

I'm kind of with Mathman. It drives me crazy when I come in here after a competition and the judges are being second-guessed and criticized and raked over the proverbial coals because of minute details that people sitting in their living rooms pick out after rewinding multiple times in slow motion and reviewing a zillion times. They're human. They don't always get it right but they don't always get it wrong, either. I think having a musical specialist or whatever - one person - on the judging panel is not a bad idea though. Possibly they should be an accomplished choreographer or someone with a musical and/or dance background (not ice dance, regular dance) who could lend credence to the PCS scores that are getting outrageous. Perhaps I'm being a Pollyanna about this but I think the judges do a good job given the very short time they have to make a decision.

 

[Magill]

One person lending credence to scores which are lacking credibility otherwise is no good. In many cases, this one person would be an outsider whose scores are left out and just do exactly this - lend credibility to scores which would be left out otherwise. A pretence. An excuse. Not a real change.
It should be a whole judging panel made of professional floor dancers and maybe floor choreographers - and no more amateurs. We've had enough of them.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I'd prefer that the artists scores count for real. Otherwise, why would anyone care?

As I recall it, the kids who won those extra Artistic Awards (a Vancouver jeweller donated two small trophies for junior and senior), and their parents and coaches were happy. On a more practical level, some skaters who later applied to join ice shows put their artistic award(s) on their resumes, and I know of a choreographer and a costume designer who mentioned the awards in their advertising.

 

[gsk8]

I think one of the biggest challenges would be deciding what “artistry” actually means in skating.

For example, a professional dancer might focus on body line, movement quality, transitions, and choreography very differently from a musician, who might care more about rhythm, timing, musical connection, and emotion.

Figure skating currently puts all of that under PCS, but maybe that’s part of the issue — several different kinds of artistry are being judged at the same time.

I also think outside experts would still need some understanding of skating itself. For example:

• why jump layouts affect choreography,
• how speed and edge quality affect movement,
• how stamina can impact performance late in a program,
• and how the rules encourage certain styles over others.

Otherwise, there’s a risk they might reward programs that look artistic in theory but don’t really work within the technical demands of elite skating.

 

[4everchan]

I think one of the biggest challenges would be deciding what “artistry” actually means in skating.

Let the artists decide for themselves what they consider artistic in a program... They know a thing or two about art

For example, a professional dancer might focus on body line, movement quality, transitions, and choreography very differently from a musician, who might care more about rhythm, timing, musical connection, and emotion.

Figure skating currently puts all of that under PCS, but maybe that’s part of the issue — several different kinds of artistry are being judged at the same time.

I also think outside experts would still need some understanding of skating itself. For example:

• why jump layouts affect choreography,
• how speed and edge quality affect movement,
• how stamina can impact performance late in a program,
• and how the rules encourage certain styles over others.

Otherwise, there’s a risk they might reward programs that look artistic in theory but don’t really work within the technical demands of elite skating.

This is all hypothetical of course but I think the artists who may be interested in being figure skating expert judges in some areas of PCS would be the ones who actually care to do so. Some of my colleagues have absolutely no interest in most sport. I'd bet my house that they wouldn't be the ones lining up to be a judge. Some are already interested in figure skating because of the music and choreography components. Most of these ones have basic knowledge to advanced knowledge of the sport. Also, many dancers and musicians did skate as kids, just like many skaters have taken music and ballet lessons.

I am not too worried about any of that but that's of course just my opinion.

 

[4everchan]

So how could that work?

Let's assume that the arts experts will submit scores similar to the current CH and PE components, though edits are possible to reflect how actual artists think about the qualities to be measured, as opposed to how skating officials have traditionally thought about them. (And I personally would like to see IN and PE separated again.)

Interpretation and performance execution are closely related in performing arts. I don't mind them being separated or joint.

*Do you have suggestions for how to write guidelines or rubrics that the arts experts would apply in scoring the performances?

Sure. I do think that there are two kinds of artists who could judge figure skating. Dancers and musicians. Dancers could actually easily follow guidelines already in place for composition. I think they would really be keen on judging body lines and precision.

Musicians, as I have mentioned, the way I appreciate an especially good program in terms of musicality has to do with these main components
1) Pulsation : when a skater skates "in time" it's a completely different experience for me. That's very objective by the way.
2) Musical phrasing : music is very structured. Some programs are built closely in ways that follow musical structure. I react to this positively. When the music is going one way while the skaters is doing something else, I disconnect easily. This is also relatively objective to judge.
3) Emotional awareness : this perhaps has more to do with interpretation. Many skaters are able to give the big picture, the big storyline. However, there are some skaters who go further, who carry the emotional content of the musical phrase with their entire body and movement repertoire. This is what moves me the most when watching what I would consider a good musical performance/interpretation in figure skating. I would think that this is more subjective.
4) Musical highlights : this already exists. Some skaters do it well already. Others don't. Pretty objective area to judge.

*How does one qualify to become such an artistic skating judge? How do you establish your prior expertise to be accepted into this judging corps?

Training and experience. A professional artist will have both. Someone who lives from their art is recognized by their peers as being an expert.

*Is musical interpretation the only thing being judged by outside music/dance experts? Or should qualities such as acting ability, performance ability in the sense of charisma/projection, or spatial composition, or aesthetics of body line also be considered?

all of these but the last one could be judge by someone who is an actor... however, I don't think, outside of ice dance, that it's a criteria for figure skating. Some skaters do give face but unfortunately do not connect to the music with their blades and body, so to me, that's not really an important feature. Body line, that's something that can be evaluated objectively by a choreographer/dancer.

*Should outside experts come only from the fields of dance and music, or are individuals with professional in other art forms encouraged to participate?

To me, yes. Only dance and music. I don't need a ceramist to judge figure skating nor do I need a figure skater coach evaluate a pot.

How would the different kinds of expertise offered by, say, a ballerina vs. a rock musician vs. a film director vs. an abstract sculptor be synthesized into the criteria?

No visual arts. I think it's a field for performing artists : musicians and dancers. Now, would a rock musician have a different perspective than a classical musician. It's possible for some of the criteria I have listed above. But they both know how to count and how musical structure work. Where they may differ in taste would be in the criteria I have listed as subjective.

*How much do these outside judges need to know about figure skating technique? Not so that they will be evaluating it directly, but so that they understand what is possible and what is valued, which will help them understand why skaters and choreographers make the kinds of choices they make.

the more they know, the better it is . but as I have mentioned above, interest is key. Not every single artist dreams of sitting down for hours watching people skate. So I think that the ones who would be interested not only are the ones who already love skating BUT also, artists are often quite rigorous in their training and would want to give accurate evaluation. So not only do I believe they would happily take training but they would excel at it.

*What should these outside judges know about current skating rules? So that they understand what is allowed or forbidden and what is rewarded, which will help them understand why skaters and choreographers make the kinds of choices they make.

They should know the guidelines and rule book like other judges.

*What should these outside judges know about skating history? So that they will have a good sense of how original vs. derivative current programs are.

Well.. do we really believe that there is something that is so innovative in skating ? Or in music ? Or in dance ? I mean a pot is a pot

 

[gsk8]

Let the artists decide for themselves what they consider artistic in a program... They know a thing or two about art

This is all hypothetical of course but I think the artists who may be interested in being figure skating expert judges in some areas of PCS would be the ones who actually care to do so. Some of my colleagues have absolutely no interest in most sport. I'd bet my house that they wouldn't be the ones lining up to be a judge. Some are already interested in figure skating because of the music and choreography components. Most of these ones have basic knowledge to advanced knowledge of the sport. Also, many dancers and musicians did skate as kids, just like many skaters have taken music and ballet lessons.

I am not too worried about any of that but that's of course just my opinion.

That’s fair, and I do agree that the people most interested in judging skating artistically would probably already have some familiarity with the sport.

I think my main point is less “artists wouldn’t understand skating at all” and more that different artistic backgrounds might prioritize very different things. A musician, dancer, actor, choreographer, etc. could all walk away with completely different impressions of the same program, and none of them would necessarily be “wrong.”

That’s part of why I find PCS so tricky in general. Figure skating is trying to judge skating quality, composition, musical interpretation, performance ability, movement quality, and technical difficulty all at the same time.

I actually think outside perspectives could be interesting — especially in trial events or seminars — because it might reveal how differently people perceive “artistry” in skating.

 

[gkelly]

Interpretation and performance execution are closely related in performing arts. I don't mind them being separated or joint.

Good thoughts in general.

Well.. do we really believe that there is something that is so innovative in skating ? Or in music ? Or in dance ? I mean a pot is a pot

In skating, I think we can look at the past, how skaters had traditionally approached their programs, and when someone came along that did something different that made an impact -- and likely inspired new trends, such that what had been new and different in skating now became relatively commonplace.

I'm sure we could go through and come up with lists of some of the most innovative or influential figures within the sport from previous decades. Individuals whose work on the ice signaled or directly caused a paradigm shift.

And also rule changes that allowed for such shifts without a single individual taking credit.

Since there's another thread here about nostalgia... Fans who are relatively new to watching skating (including fans who are also performing arts experts who would like to contribute that expertise to judging) would be familiar with what we expect to see on the ice in the 2020s. But if a skater today chose to skate a program inspired by, perhaps as tribute to, an earlier era or a specific groundbreaking skater from the past, would those newer to the sport think "Wow, I've never seen that kind of choreographic approach before! Full marks for originality!"? Or would they think, "Ah, what a beautiful tribute to John Curry/Torvill & Dean/etc. They really took the spirit of that iconic program and made it work just as well in today's environment."

It would probably makes even more of a difference if the current skater revives an approach that does not look familiar, so therefore looks "original," but doesn't make their performance work as well in today's skating world as the skater(s) they're drawing on for inspiration did in theirs.

 

[yfan1]

Let the artists decide for themselves what they consider artistic in a program... They know a thing or two about art

Sure, but I think point is a correct one.

Martial arts are arts, and so are the culinary arts. And even snowboarding has an artistry. I think for skills like figure skating, limiting artistry to technical qualities and the aesthetic that comes with those is fairgame, even if I disagree.

Interpretation and performance execution are closely related in performing arts. I don't mind them being separated or joint.

Yeah, and to me it was confusing to have two different components in skating. Now though it seems that judges entirely ignore musicality, so wouldn't mind this being back just to force some judges to reconsider their scores.

 

[Query]

Didn't the current judging system evolve because people were concerned the prior system had too much leeway for bias, including national style bias? It seems like you are trying to bring that back.

Now, perhaps we could have the artistic judging done by an AI, which is available to the whole skating community, so everyone can test how well their routines is likely to be judged before the competition.

Or we could make it more like certain reality TV artistic shows, in which the person who's fans shout the loudest wins. Gee, can you think of any possible problems with that?

We could also have performances be judged by the Internet audience - and the fans can buy votes. No possible bias with that at all!

Art is never going to be unbiased. There are always many schools of thought in the arts about how things should be done. And there are often regional biases in those schools of thought.

To me, the problem with figure skating is that there is a competition. Sports should be done for the joy of movement, not for beating someone else. Shows and theatric productions come a lot closer to the way things should be.