- Joined
- Jul 13, 2014
I'm really hoping that with more training, female will be able to do quads. I love seeing females challenging males at stuff.
Women and the triple Axel
- Thread starter gsk8
- Start date
I'm really hoping that with more training, female will be able to do quads. I love seeing females challenging males at stuff.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Human body has its limit. It's not like these top ladies haven't practiced 3A and quad. Yuna also practiced 3A when she was under Orser's wing. Sasha Cohen landed a quad in warm up years ago. Miki Ando also landed 4S. Of course they practice, it's just maybe we need ladies with amazing jumping ability like Midori Ito again.
Just imagining Yuna doing 3A... 
Maybe someday if puberty will be nice to her and with practice & perseverance, Yuna Aoki could land a 3A. Her layout is pretty impressive for her level. I want to see more 3A in Ladies competitions in the future. Men's is continuously evolving so I hope the ladies will also venture out a little into the unknown.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Her coach is Yuzuru's ex coach. Somehow I can see this as a pre-motion.
Let's hope!
The difference is that men carry their weight in the UPPER half of their bodies (shoulders and upper abs) while women carry their weight in the LOWER half (hips). Men can use the greater strength in the upper part of their bodies to pull themselves up into the air, and their higher center of gravity is a further advantage.
I was just about to mention this, and I believe it's mentioned in Mishin's book on jump technique. Upper-body strength is more important for the 3A than quads because you can rotate quads by snapping into position/rotating faster, but 3As need the lift created by upper-body momentum.... I think. Maybe.
Yes. And the fact that women have the greater part of their weight in the lower part of their body and therefore a lower center of gravity makes it that much harder for them to get the lift necessary for a 3a. The lack of upper body strength, of course, is the main deterrent. A very short, compact, muscular woman like Midori Ito had less of a problem and more consistency with the 3a than the taller, leaner Mao Asada.
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2011
If there could have been an internet forum back in the 60's, I bet skating fans would have argued about the possiblity of ever seeing a lady skate a program with seven triple jumps.
They probably would have thought that since the best skaters of their time couldn't do it consistently...then it couldn't be done by the human body.
They probably would have thought that since the best skaters of their time couldn't do it consistently...then it couldn't be done by the human body.
I doubt that MEN were landing 7 triples in their freeskates during the 1960s, let alone women! First of all, not all the jump types were in existence or commonly done during the 1960s.
Dick Button was the first man to land a triple jump in competition (a triple loop) in 1952. Ronnie Robertson was the first man to land a triple salchow in competition in 1955. Donald Jackson was the first to land a triple lutz in competition, in 1962, and maybe the triple flip as well. Thomas Litz was the first to land a triple toe loop in competition, in 1964.
The first woman to land a triple salchow in competition (Canadian nationals) was Petra Burke, in 1962. The first woman to land a triple loop in competition was Gaby Seyfert in 1968. Denise Biellmann was the first woman to land a triple lutz in competition, in 1978. Katharina Witt was one of the first to land a triple flip in competition, in 1981. Midori Ito was the first woman to land a 3/3, and the first to land 7 triple jumps in a free skate (in 1988).
Dick Button was the first man to land a triple jump in competition (a triple loop) in 1952. Ronnie Robertson was the first man to land a triple salchow in competition in 1955. Donald Jackson was the first to land a triple lutz in competition, in 1962, and maybe the triple flip as well. Thomas Litz was the first to land a triple toe loop in competition, in 1964.
The first woman to land a triple salchow in competition (Canadian nationals) was Petra Burke, in 1962. The first woman to land a triple loop in competition was Gaby Seyfert in 1968. Denise Biellmann was the first woman to land a triple lutz in competition, in 1978. Katharina Witt was one of the first to land a triple flip in competition, in 1981. Midori Ito was the first woman to land a 3/3, and the first to land 7 triple jumps in a free skate (in 1988).
Lol, I doubt there were 7-triple LPs from anyone in the '70s. I'd say Boitano and Orser in the '80s was the start of true "all kinds of triples" skates from the men (Hamilton was the last to win OGM without a 3A, iirc).
If going by history, yeah, we'll probably see more technical innovations. This is the very argument Plushenko used to say why someday there will be 4A, quints, ect. But at the same time... I dunno. I'm more on the Timothy Goebel side of the argument: We haven't hit a wall yet, but I think we might soon. Women's skating hasn't really moved beyond Midori Ito after all these years, except for Miki's rare quad. Men's skating still hasn't moved past the SLC golden age except for Mroz's rare quad lutz. Maybe we'll see more kinds of quads from the men, and a few 3As/4Ss from the top women... but I don't know if we'll ever move beyond that.
If going by history, yeah, we'll probably see more technical innovations. This is the very argument Plushenko used to say why someday there will be 4A, quints, ect. But at the same time... I dunno. I'm more on the Timothy Goebel side of the argument: We haven't hit a wall yet, but I think we might soon. Women's skating hasn't really moved beyond Midori Ito after all these years, except for Miki's rare quad. Men's skating still hasn't moved past the SLC golden age except for Mroz's rare quad lutz. Maybe we'll see more kinds of quads from the men, and a few 3As/4Ss from the top women... but I don't know if we'll ever move beyond that.
Oh, I didn't know this. Was blinded by the general chatter of "Witt was so behind even her own time technically!" Thank you for the info.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2006
I do believe Witt is credited with the first 3flip, at a Euros in the early 80s, but it was hardly a stable jump for her. She might have only landed it in competition maybe three times. Her 3loop was a total what the heck because she'd never tried it before that season in 87. She wasn't THAT far behind her competitors. I do think Caryn Kadavy with two gorgeous loops plus a toe and sal should have always beaten Witt. But Kadavy always managed to sabotage herself after the 3 minute mark. I never understood if you've done four triples (back then) and you know you're going to bail on your final triple(s) why even do a double, just sell the program. You just look weak.
Meh, first credited 3F is first credited 3F.
The quad was never a stable jump for Kurt Browning, but it's still a milestone for him. And I think Witt was also good at playing by the rules: the paramount rule in 6.0 was "don't fall," and Witt didn't do a lot of that.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2006
Meh, first credited 3F is first credited 3F.
Also, Witt knew how to end a program. She usually held her reliable 3toe and a 2A in the final thirty seconds. You don't win championships by doubling your final 3toe and singling your 2A. American women in the 80s had a knack for doing that. Ask Roz Sumners.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
Daleman's and Chartrand's efforts are trumpeted in the emphatic closing sentence of today's Skate Canada article re Thornhill.
Just so that you know: both skaters are working on triple Axels and not just for fun.
http://www.skatecanada.ca/AboutUs/NewsDetails/tabid/2157/sni[2797]/3615/language/en-US/Default.aspx (Aug 22)
http://www.skatecanada.ca/AboutUs/NewsDetails/tabid/2157/sni[2797]/3615/language/en-US/Default.aspx (Aug 22)
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2013
I'm banging my head just thinking about that. I still thought she should have won in '87. I get that it left a bad impression on the crowd, but the judges should have be able to see through it.
LOL! It would be great if they could land all their OTHER triples cleanly, let alone the 3a!!
Chartrand's SP at Thornhill was a mess: 2a, 3z-2hd+2t↓, 3lo.
Daleman's FS at the same competition wasn't exactly a triumph either: 1ze, 2a+3t, 3z, 3f↓, 3s+2t, 2a, 3lo, and since Chartrand had withdrawn she had no competition to speak of.
The likelihood of splatting on a 3a is great, and if a skater doesn't have a reliable lutz, that doesn't bode well for competition success.
Another thing with women and 3A is that there are so few references, and with today's emphasis on GOE's their 3A attempts are often compared to men's (or Midori's). Hopefully this changes somewhat. Mao's 3A at the World 2014 is a reference quality for women, IMO.
Agreed. I think the GOE for Mao's 3A has been rather stingy, compared to the GOEs of her competitors who do 3-3s (3-3s that don't get compared to men's).
