2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[nussnacker]

For both of her JGP SP's last year, Tarakanova doubled her 2nd jump. She had outstanding quality otherwise and therefore still managed to score around 65 points both times, but still it was rather precarious. Thankfully she managed to get back the 3-3 in the short by Nationals.

Maybe it was due to training with Plushenko and not having enough ice time, and some combos got undertrained?
With Panova I think she can get more consistent.
She needs a clean short, if Alysa will be putting out 3A-3T combo.

 

[SkateSkates]

We can agree to disagree with Alena . But the tango SP I think is her best program and performance.

I agree that Alina interprets with her face, and to a lesser extent her body. But I think Anna actually uses her body to interpret music, like when she gets on her toe to hit the high points of the music in her choreography, when she folds her arms up and lowers her posture when she's skating between elements in time with the changes in the music, and when she does her transitions to gain speed into an element as the music crescendos. Of course, if she had Alena's skating skills to change speed, this would be even better. Anna's facial expressions are excellent, but I think they only add to the performance, but doesn't make it like her body movements.

Oh yes, I think if Anna is able to gain a bit more power, all her movements would feel bigger and more impactful, which is currently what is lacking from me and impacts my personal opinions of her performances. I think she will get there - maybe by the end of this season based on how much she improved this past season. To me, she is one of the best with facial interpretation. Definitely more overt than Alena, but still not over the top (which I am not a fan of). Regarding her body movement, she often doesn’t have her free leg turned out and pointed, which ruins what would otherwise be a beautiful position. I think once she gains a bit more strength this will be improved, just like her SS/power.

 

[SkateSkates]

Maybe it was due to training with Plushenko and not having enough ice time, and some combos got undertrained?
With Panova I think she can get more consistent.
She needs a clean short, if Alysa will be putting out 3A-3T combo.

She also got a late start last season after she initially quit, leaving Eteri’s group, and was off the ice for a month. She was also off for a bit that spring too with illness if I remember correctly.

She was not quite ready at the start of the season, but by the COR stage 5, GPF and Nationals she was totally prepared and had regained her strength and stamina.

 

[Amei]

I agree. I’ve never quite got the big thing with Aliona’s artistry because I can’t engage that much with her performances and she isn’t passionate or emotional like Anna. I enjoy the aesthetics of her skating skills and positions very much and she has nice musicality but the only time I’ve seen a hint of expression is in the second half of her angel SP and vampire ex. I don’t think she realises how to interpret calm classical music yet...I always feel like a terrible person for thinking that and feel like the only one in the world who thinks that [emoji23]

You are not alone; while Aliona is a lovely skater to watch, she comes off very mechanical and one-note; it's going to be nice to see the vampire program if they can bring out some emotion and something different than the last 2 years.

 

[Scott512]

Agree- it totally depends on the context, and from what I remember, she was not being a fan of either "Med" or "Zag" when she referred to them that way. I think nicknames are fine for fans. It's usually easy to tell who is a fan, and who is being condescending/belittling.

True. She is being very condescending and then after Alina won PC gold she wrote a piece about how the wrong Russian won. She also doesn't life 15 year old Russian skater in the Olympics. But since a 13 year old phenom just won US Nationals in January I'm sure she's re thought her strategy on that.

 

[Elucidus]

If Alysa lands 2A, 3A-3T and 3Lo clean, and Tarakanova has some mishap in her short, the difference might be simply insurmountable.

3A is not allowed in ladies juniors short by rules AFAIK.

 

[Amei]

I'm pretty surprised that so many here think Alysa Liu will have a significant chance of playing spoiler for Russian dominance this year.

While I think she's likely to be favored at the American JGP event, otherwise I do not think the judges will be so kind. Her jumps are consistent but also small and at big risk of UR, and her skating is slow with pretty weak SS. The Russian juniors will outclass her in basically every way at this point. And I'm not trying to be negative about Alysa - I'm generally a US lady fan! But just being realistic - she has a lot of development to do. She's version 1.0 of US "wunderkind girl", and the Russian ladies are on version 5.0 of their own wunderkind girls. They're leagues ahead of her.

I won't be surprised if she wins gold in her first JGP, but I think she will have a hard time placing higher than third at any other JGP event. But it will be interesting to see how JGP assignments pan out on both sides.

Does anyone else think that Alysa will get propped up because she has some of the difficult jumps and she's not Russian since Russia has been dominating the Junior circuit?

I was interested and pulled some stats since the 2010/2011 season:
- 27 Junior world medals: 18 of those were Russian and 8 of the 9 seasons the gold medalist was Russian, and with the exception of 2012, 2016 and 2017 top 2 skaters have been Russian, the last 2 jr. Worlds the point gap between 2nd and 3rd was over 12 and 25 points
- 27 Jr. GPF medals: 22 of 27 have been Russian and only once has Russia not finished 1-2, and the last 2 years, 5 of the 6 qualifiers for the GPF have been Russian

 

[karina17]

3A is not allowed in ladies juniors short by rules AFAIK.

3A is not allowed as a solo jump because the 2A is the required axel, but there's nothing against putting the 3A as the combo because the only requirement is that it must be a 3-2 or a 3-3. It's been done before, just not in junior ladies.

 

[el henry]

True. She is being very condescending and then after Alena one she wrote a piece about how the wrong Russian won. She also doesn't life 15 year old Russian skater in the Olympics. But since a 13 year old phenom just won US Nationals in January I'm sure she's re thought her strategy on that.

I am no fan of Christine Brennan, mostly because of her stance on other issues.

But she is *extremely* consistent on the issue of the danger of young girls overtraining and not looking after their health in sports. Be they American, Russian, or any other country. So the wink and the nod is not merited, IMO.

Furthermore, she praised Zhenya to the skies in the article where she said Alina should not have won. That meant that a Russian would still have won gold or silver, just in her opinion the wrong Russian. And she wrote that while both skaters were still with Eteri. No anti-Russian bias there. And in that article, she used everyone's full, long first and last names.

It would be perfectly normal for someone who likes Alina better than Zhenya to disagree with her. But that's not bias, that's an opinion.

 

[lesnar001]

That said, I do think Anna does an excellent job of interpreting music with her face, as does Alina. Those 3 are very different in their approach to interpretation. All are very good but unique in their own ways.

Very well said. Thank you.

One thing you have to give Alina credit for is getting the job done on her spins. I'll quote Dave Lease from TSL on this one - Even though she completely bombed her long program at Rus Nats she got every level on her spins.

It amazed me that in spite of some of the problems Alina was having with her jumps (to the point of program disruption) she only received 1 level less than 4 on anything all last season! At least I don't remember more than one level 3. It's nice to see a champion's mentality even during a sub-par skate. Earn all the points you can even though you must feel deflated. That is her "champion's advantage" - a champion's mentality.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

3A is not allowed as a solo jump because the 2A is the required axel, but there's nothing against putting the 3A as the combo because the only requirement is that it must be a 3-2 or a 3-3. It's been done before, just not in junior ladies.

Actually I have to correct you. There has been a lady who had a 3A in her SP before. Mao Asada had a 3A in her SP in Juniors I think it was in 2006 when she did a 3A+2Lo in her SP during Junior Worlds.

 

[ec00834]

I am no fan of Christine Brennan, mostly because of her stance on other issues.

But she is *extremely* consistent on the issue of the danger of young girls overtraining and not looking after their health in sports. Be they American, Russian, or any other country. So the wink and the nod is not merited, IMO.

Furthermore, she praised Zhenya to the skies in the article where she said Alina should not have won. That meant that a Russian would still have won gold or silver, just in her opinion the wrong Russian. And she wrote that while both skaters were still with Eteri. No anti-Russian bias there. And in that article, she used everyone's full, long first and last names.

It would be perfectly normal for someone who likes Alina better than Zhenya to disagree with her. But that's not bias, that's an opinion.

But opinions can still be biased since she favors one over the other. It's more of a person-specific bias. Journalists are supposed to present facts not opinions.

 

[Seruleane]

I am no fan of Christine Brennan, mostly because of her stance on other issues.

But she is *extremely* consistent on the issue of the danger of young girls overtraining and not looking after their health in sports. Be they American, Russian, or any other country. So the wink and the nod is not merited, IMO.

Furthermore, she praised Zhenya to the skies in the article where she said Alina should not have won. That meant that a Russian would still have won gold or silver, just in her opinion the wrong Russian. And she wrote that while both skaters were still with Eteri. No anti-Russian bias there. And in that article, she used everyone's full, long first and last names.

It would be perfectly normal for someone who likes Alina better than Zhenya to disagree with her. But that's not bias, that's an opinion.

Well, in my personal opinion, Christine Brennan only started praising Zhenya after she lost to Alina. I don't recall her being especially complimentary to Zhenya prior to the Olympics, but if I am wrong, please correct me and give me the sources. I somehow recall her mentioning Zhenya was consistent all the time because she kept the same layout year after year, but this could be an incorrect recollection. Anyway, during this whole article, she was basically saying Zagitova "gamed the system" to win and otherwise didn't deserve to win. Sure, I get that she had the bonus for doing jumps in the second half, but come on- the same bonus applies to the male skaters as well. When Hanyu or Chen place quads in the second half, are they accused of gaming the system to their advantage? Anyway, the whole article, including the title "Wrong Russian Won Olympics" was just flame baiting and dismissive of Alina’s victory. I wonder if she would have written a similar article when Tara Lipinski beat Michelle Kwan? "Wrong American Wins Olympics." Gosh, as a huge Michelle Kwan fan during that era, even I would have known it was a wrong and spiteful thing to say. Anyway, just had to post my 2 cents worth. I actually like Christine Brennan very much for her other sports coverage. But in this case, it just felt like an inflammatory article.

 

[ec00834]

She also wrote 'she doesn’t even try a jump until she’s been on the ice for more than two minutes' which makes it seem as if those two minutes are just a warmup and not incredibly challenging.

 

[Yuna Luna]

I just think it’s a bit strange when people judge a skater’s artistry based on their facial expressiveness - I think the body is a more important vessel for expressing music anyway - or equally, correlate how dramatic an expression is with how much a person is feeling. I think that even subtle expressions, like Alyona’s here, can convey as much feeling as the more pronounced ones.

Anna and Alyona have very different styles. Alyona’s face doesn’t radiate with emotion like Anna, but she can still elicit those emotions in the audience, and that is the goal of any performer. Her posture, grace, and skating skills are world class and are all the tools she needs for story-telling. Both she and Anna are delightful to watch, honestly.

That's the thing. When you first look at Alena, her skating is beautiful. The posture is sublime, and she's so smooth and quick across the ice. You can notice this without music. But then you look at the performance as a whole, the interpretation of music. And that's when I realized the performance isn't there. It's just beautiful moves and lines - her arms are very pretty - but it has nothing to do with the music. There is no change in tension or variation in her upper body to respond to the music; it just looks like it's on one level through the entire performance and to me it looks flat. And her face is blank for most of it as well. I don't think it's the lyrical programs that are a problem (although it certainly is more difficult to interpret than a dramatic piece). But Alina's POTO was lyrical and there was variation in expression. And of course, Kostner is known for lyrical programs but the intention of each move is clear and she has a masterful performance.

I must disagree with this, because you can see a clear change in upper body tension in the second half of Alyona’s Departure program. Her arm movements become more abrupt and aggressive - I think signifies the angel’s desperation as she starts to fall and and loses control of her wings - and her facial expressions more dramatic. After the combination spin, she throws down her arms and accelerates into the step sequence, wherein her movements are more frenzied and despairing, and she looks towards the sky, as a falling angel might do. Watching her short program muted, you certainly can tell when the music picks up speed and intensity.

She sometimes misses a few musical cues when she makes a mistake, but she has reasons for it - e.g. when she fell during the Russian Nationals she had to complete the step sequence in order to get the points for it, which made her late for the last part of the program and that couldn’t be helped. Even so, she skipped some of the choreography and caught the ending on time. That was very sensible and musically aware on her part.

In the words of Ted Barton, who was an amazing commentator for the Junior Grand Prix last season: “she doesn’t just hear the music, she feels the music.”

That is my take on Alyona!

 

[SkateSkates]

I just think it’s a bit strange when people judge a skater’s artistry based on their facial expressiveness - I think the body is a more important vessel for expressing music anyway - or equally, correlate how dramatic an expression is with how much a person is feeling. I think that even subtle expressions, like Alyona’s here, can convey as much feeling as the more pronounced ones.

Anna and Alyona have very different styles. Alyona’s face doesn’t radiate with emotion like Anna, but she can still elicit those emotions in the audience, and that is the goal of any performer. Her posture, grace, and skating skills are world class and are all the tools she needs for story-telling. Both she and Anna are delightful to watch, honestly.



I must disagree with this, because you can see a clear change in upper body tension in the second half of Alyona’s Departure program. Her arm movements become more abrupt and aggressive - perhaps signifies the angel’s desperation as she starts to fall and and loses control of her wings - and her facial expressions more dramatic. After the combination spin, she throws down her arms and accelerates into the step sequence, wherein her movements are more frenzied and despairing, and she looks towards the sky, as a falling angel might do. Watching her short program muted, you certainly can tell when the music picks up speed and intensity.

She sometimes misses a few musical cues when she makes a mistake, but she has reasons for it - e.g. when she fell during the Russian Nationals, she had to complete the step sequence in order to get the points for it, which made her late for the last part of the program and couldn’t be helped. Even so, she skipped some of the choreography and caught the ending on time. That was very sensible and musically aware on her part.

In the words of Ted Barton, who was an amazing commentator for the Junior Grand Prix last season: “she doesn’t just hear the music, she feels the music.”

That is my take on Alyona!

Agree with this whole post! Couldn’t have said it better myself.

And it wasn’t exactly a serious program, but we can see she understood the musical phrasing of the piece she put together for the Japanese game show . Even though she trolled the game, she still “choreographed” her hilarious dance to the music.

 

[el henry]

But opinions can still be biased since she favors one over the other. It's more of a person-specific bias. Journalists are supposed to present facts not opinions.

In my experience, many journalists do both. And particularly sportswriters, which I was for a New York minute a million years ago.... In my local paper, for example, the same journalist (these examples are all made up) will report on an Eagles game with "just the facts" (DeSean Jackson caught some a 32 yard pass, Carson Wentz slipped through the tackle to make the first down) and opinion pieces (The Eagles were fools to trade St. Nick, but getting DJax back is the best. move.ever. )

So Zhenya being the superior skater is Christine's opinion. Which she is paid to give in an opinion piece, as far as I can tell. Certainly anyone who wants is free to disagree. Personally, I actually did not have a strong opinion on the ladies' Olympic event. I surely wasn't reading every word Christine, or anyone else wrote, before or after. I do remember that article, and I didn't find it that outrageous, but since I was not invested in the outcome, maybe something slipped by me

 

[NoviceFan]

Well, in my personal opinion, Christine Brennan only started praising Zhenya after she lost to Alina. I don't recall her being especially complimentary to Zhenya prior to the Olympics, but if I am wrong, please correct me and give me the sources. I somehow recall her mentioning Zhenya was consistent all the time because she kept the same layout year after year, but this could be an incorrect recollection. Anyway, during this whole article, she was basically saying Zagitova "gamed the system" to win and otherwise didn't deserve to win. Sure, I get that she had the bonus for doing jumps in the second half, but come on- the same bonus applies to the male skaters as well. When Hanyu or Chen place quads in the second half, are they accused of gaming the system to their advantage? Anyway, the whole article, including the title "Wrong Russian Won Olympics" was just flame baiting and dismissive of Alina’s victory. I wonder if she would have written a similar article when Tara Lipinski beat Michelle Kwan? "Wrong American Wins Olympics." Gosh, as a huge Michelle Kwan fan during that era, even I would have known it was a wrong and spiteful thing to say. Anyway, just had to post my 2 cents worth. I actually like Christine Brennan very much for her other sports coverage. But in this case, it just felt like an inflammatory article.

Just contributing to this exchange; I don't know about other times, but here's one instance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTDezuqWutg starting at 6:06 until 7:59.

"Medvedeva, just, I thought was terrific... I thought she was great; she was in character, she was adorable, she was fun to watch, she was landing the jumps, the program made sense to me... I thought she was great. So that little girl skating that I...we have talked about over the years and months that have... I did not feel that with her, you know she is obviously still a kid, but she was great...[followed by talk about Brennan not expecting the score to break Yuna Kim's record, but knowing at the moment that Evgenia's going to win]... Medvedeva is all that's she was cracked up to be, and I thought she was excellent..."

April 2016.

 

[karina17]

Actually I have to correct you. There has been a lady who had a 3A in her SP before. Mao Asada had a 3A in her SP in Juniors I think it was in 2006 when she did a 3A+2Lo in her SP during Junior Worlds.

You're right, sorry! For some reason Mao Asada is always a senior lady in my head.

 

[Scott512]

In that context and given she's a journalist, it is indeed strange from a professional with her own platform to do that.
edit: we do however have some other rather controversial journalists in Russia too, who tend to disrespect skaters as well *cough* Vaitsekhovskaya *cough*

True.

This reminds me TAT's tv interview after Worlds. She talked about the achievements of the Russian girls - Evgenia, Zagitova and the girl who is coached by Mishin.

I wish I was kidding.

She still continues to refer to Alina as Zagitova, even in her latest interview, when she was asked about her invitation to visit the Japanese Prime Minister. The one where she said "of course she was happy for Zagitova, why wouldn't she be happy? We are all happy to go wherever we are invited as long as it isn't prison."

My favorite comment under that interview - "Alina. Her name is Alina." I guess we should just all be glad TAT refers to her by even one of her names.

I don't think using TAT, Med, Zag, Tuk, Yuzu, etc. is disrespectful in the least.

Anybody here remember Yelena Zamolodchakova? Russian Gymnast at the Sydney Games who won several medals, (floor and vault I think). She had the best nick name of all time - ZAMO!

I think Sophia should start going by "Samo". It might increase the chance of TAT remembering who she is.

Is TAT still hard on Alina and still bitter about her winning olympic gold? If so its ridiculous.