2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

[natsulian]

At the end of the day, Starr simply needs to reevaluate her current situation and change her coaching team if she truly wants to be one of the elite US ladies. Although the senior scene is not too exciting these days (Ting might surprise us, who knows), the junior season starts in less than two weeks and I am looking forward to how we fare. I'm not expecting medals galore, but I truly hope that our top junior ladies continue to improve and find success.

---

Also, I agree about Junior/Senior Test Skates.

Say, the top four/five ladies each get two Junior Grand Prix and the rest of the ladies might receive one assignment based on summer monitoring. That way, if lady A does poorly during the Test Skate, but proves herself to be worthy during the other summer competitions, she can have an opportunity to be selected for a Junior Grand Prix event.

Furthermore, ladies who did not qualify for the I.S.P. cannot compete on the Junior Grand Prix unless they medalled at the previous Nationals (since there has to be some sort of incentive for those who did medal during high pressure competitions). Additionally, make the requirements for the I.S.P. public, hold livestreams for the Test Skates, and bring in renowned coaches and/or technicians to help lead the high performance camps.

Finally, for those who medal at a Junior Grand Prix event and/or made it to the Final, they are automatically put into a "high priority" list and are guaranteed one Junior Grand Prix event for the next season. That way, if lady A earned a bronze at Latvia, but then went on to bomb the next season's Test Skate, she will not be put into the "low priority" list where she is not guaranteed an event. However, if lady A places out of the Top 5 in her event, she will not be guaranteed a second event. That way, the ladies who did medal are given high priority, but if they fail to replicate that success, other ladies can swoop in.

South Korea, Japan, and Russia all have a form of test skates and their ladies are some of the top skaters in the world. Plus, it enables these ladies to learn how to deal with competitions where a lot is at stake.

 

[Ice Dance]

Furthermore, ladies who did not qualify for the I.S.P. cannot compete on the Junior Grand Prix unless they medalled at the previous Nationals

I think anyone who medaled at Junior Nationals would already be on the ISP. (I mean, if the ISP scoring criteria is so high that the medalists at Junior Nationals can't get on it, then probably the criteria would be too high).

I do think it is probably worth pointing out that most of the examples of international test skates you referenced above do not have clear selection criteria. (We don't get scores. We don't hear promptly who is being given an event. I don't recall seeing any of the performances from Japan's junior camp). Korea has very clear criteria, and we do get all the videos. (It's not all peaches & cream, though. They don't appear to have a good policy for selecting athletes facing injury during their selection process events. Which led to Cha being left off the JGP one season and also to him skating injured early during the Olympic season.

 

[natsulian]

I think anyone who medals at junior nationals is going to be on the ISP already, no? (I mean, if the ISP scoring criteria is so high that the medalists at Junior Nationals can't get on it, then probably the criteria would be too high).

I meant for those who were not juniors previously. For example, Calista Choi, Isabelle Inthisone, and Aubrey Ignacio were put on the I.S.P. despite not meeting the I.S.P. requirements due to them medalling at Nationals as novices.

 

[Ice Dance]

I meant for those who were not juniors previously. For example, Calista Choi, Isabelle Inthisone, and Aubrey Ignacio were put on the I.S.P. despite not meeting the I.S.P. requirements due to them medalling at Nationals as novices.

But there will not be a Nationals for the ladies at the lower levels now. Correct? Just a high-performance camp of some kind? (I know there will be a Novice Nationals at a different location for the dancers).

(I added a second paragraph to my post #782 above. Just laziness on my part rather than typing a new post at the time, but I thought I should mention it here since I had already posted it).

 

[frida80]

At the end of the day, Starr simply needs to reevaluate her current situation and change her coaching team if she truly wants to be one of the elite US ladies. Although the senior scene is not too exciting these days (Ting might surprise us, who knows), the junior season starts in less than two weeks and I am looking forward to how we fare. I'm not expecting medals galore, but I truly hope that our top junior ladies continue to improve and find success.

---

Also, I agree about Junior/Senior Test Skates.

Say, the top four/five ladies each get two Junior Grand Prix and the rest of the ladies might receive one assignment based on summer monitoring. That way, if lady A does poorly during the Test Skate, but proves herself to be worthy during the other summer competitions, she can have an opportunity to be selected for a Junior Grand Prix event.

Furthermore, ladies who did not qualify for the I.S.P. cannot compete on the Junior Grand Prix unless they medalled at the previous Nationals (since there has to be some sort of incentive for those who did medal during high pressure competitions). Additionally, make the requirements for the I.S.P. public, hold livestreams for the Test Skates, and bring in renowned coaches and/or technicians to help lead the high performance camps.

Finally, for those who medal at a Junior Grand Prix event and/or made it to the Final, they are automatically put into a "high priority" list and are guaranteed one Junior Grand Prix event for the next season. That way, if lady A earned a bronze at Latvia, but then went on to bomb the next season's Test Skate, she will not be put into the "low priority" list where she is not guaranteed an event. However, if lady A places out of the Top 5 in her event, she will not be guaranteed a second event. That way, the ladies who did medal are given high priority, but if they fail to replicate that success, other ladies can swoop in.

South Korea, Japan, and Russia all have a form of test skates and their ladies are some of the top skaters in the world. Plus, it enables these ladies to learn how to deal with competitions where a lot is at stake.

I like this. Give me a few hours and I'll come up with a full plan for US figure skating year skates. Should I make one for the CS/SA TBA spot too?

 

[nataliebunard12]

I meant for those who were not juniors previously. For example, Calista Choi, Isabelle Inthisone, and Aubrey Ignacio were put on the I.S.P. despite not meeting the I.S.P. requirements due to them medalling at Nationals as novices.

And also novice ladies get bouns 1+ for every triple they do

 

[frida80]

This is what I’ve got so far. I may tweak the requirements for the test skates. I think combining a body of work system like the olympic selection as well as a readiness clause would be best.

New: USFS Junior Test Skate

The purpose of the Junior Test skate to to test the readiness of Junior competitors with their junior programs before the start of the international season.

Objective: To provide a high skates, highly competitive environment for members of the ISP
2. To ensure those selected are well prepared and well equip before going to compete
3. To select those that will have international placements on the International circuit

To be eligible:

Be certified to skate at junior level by USFS
Be added on to the ISP
Achieve one of the following
Have Achieved a medal at junior nationals
Have achieved a top ten finish at senior nationals
On of the six qualifying Novices from sectionals
Achieved a score of 155 at the junior level or 160 at the senior level
Won a medal on the JGP
Achieved a top 8 finish at junior worlds
Won a medal in a novice/junior/senior B competition
Competed in a minimum of two club competitions, one of them being a part of the US figure skating series

All skaters must meet the eligibility before July 5th to be eligible for the test skates.

The USFS junior test skates are only one of the several criteria that will be used to assign JGP and other international competitions. Only the top three are guaranteed one spot. The rest of the spots will be assigned by a body of work.

Tier 1

Top 5 at senior nationals
Top 5 at Junior Worlds
JGPF qualifier
Top 3 at Junior test skates

Tier 2

Top 10 at senior nationals
Top 3 at Junior nationals
Top 10 at Junior Worlds
JGP Medalist
CS medalist
Medalist at the US Challenge Skate

Tier 3

Current club competition score average > or = 170 (Jr.) or 175 (sr.)
Previous year’s high score was in the top five

Being a high achiever in the previous season does not automatically guarantee an international placement.The selection committee reserves the right to withhold placements if the skater appears unprepared or unable to compete at the level required. Should a skater score less than 140 at a club competition as well as fall to reach the top 5 with a qualifying score of 165, the skater will only be guaranteed an alternate position.

 

[ice coverage]

General comment: LOL, something along the line of "test skates" already could be part of USFS High Performance Camp, for all we know.

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… (I know there will be a Novice Nationals at a different location for the dancers). ...

Sorry for going off topic, but .. there will?? I hadn't heard of such a thing.

Are you talking about the U.S. Dance Final?
I don't think USFS will consider winners there to be national champions. Certainly not for juniors and seniors.

 

[medoroa]

At the end of the day, Starr simply needs to reevaluate her current situation and change her coaching team if she truly wants to be one of the elite US ladies. Although the senior scene is not too exciting these days (Ting might surprise us, who knows), the junior season starts in less than two weeks and I am looking forward to how we fare. I'm not expecting medals galore, but I truly hope that our top junior ladies continue to improve and find success.

---

Also, I agree about Junior/Senior Test Skates.

Say, the top four/five ladies each get two Junior Grand Prix and the rest of the ladies might receive one assignment based on summer monitoring. That way, if lady A does poorly during the Test Skate, but proves herself to be worthy during the other summer competitions, she can have an opportunity to be selected for a Junior Grand Prix event.

Furthermore, ladies who did not qualify for the I.S.P. cannot compete on the Junior Grand Prix unless they medalled at the previous Nationals (since there has to be some sort of incentive for those who did medal during high pressure competitions). Additionally, make the requirements for the I.S.P. public, hold livestreams for the Test Skates, and bring in renowned coaches and/or technicians to help lead the high performance camps.

Finally, for those who medal at a Junior Grand Prix event and/or made it to the Final, they are automatically put into a "high priority" list and are guaranteed one Junior Grand Prix event for the next season. That way, if lady A earned a bronze at Latvia, but then went on to bomb the next season's Test Skate, she will not be put into the "low priority" list where she is not guaranteed an event. However, if lady A places out of the Top 5 in her event, she will not be guaranteed a second event. That way, the ladies who did medal are given high priority, but if they fail to replicate that success, other ladies can swoop in.

South Korea, Japan, and Russia all have a form of test skates and their ladies are some of the top skaters in the world. Plus, it enables these ladies to learn how to deal with competitions where a lot is at stake.

How do you know the US federation doesn't already do something similar? According to Noriko Shirota, the prominent JSF board member who pioneered the JSF summer camp (who lost her prominence for very good reasons but that's a different topic...), the Japanese summer camps were inspired by North American federations and their talent scouts traveling around finding young talent to support. Japan just decided to collect the promising skaters in one spot to observe them because they didn't have money to travel around, and money is probably also a factor in Russian test skates having the centralized format they have. It's a bit silly to claim the US fed does nothing similar just because it's not public. There are many good reasons why not everything can or ought to be public. Fans often criticize the public scrutiny young Russians skaters and people like Alysa Liu are put under! As for why there is little media reports on what the US fed does, it's probably also because the US media doesn't care rather than the US fed doing nothing. In general I feel like you're demanding a lot from a federation but especially from specific skaters... I get why you're not personally satisfied by Andrews' progress and it's okay to be disappointed, but it's her life.

In practical terms I have to disagree with the "one year amnesty" suggestion for junior skaters, since junior skaters are the ones who can lose technique within a couple of months.

 

[Ice Dance]

Sorry for going off topic, but .. there will?? I hadn't heard of such a thing.

Are you talking about the U.S. Dance Final?

I guess. I've never seen this document before or heard the terminology of a "U.S. Dance Final." When there was a discussion about the proposed changes previously (probably on FSU, not here), I just recall that there was going to be an actual dance competition. And afterward people saying that the dancers would still have a Nationals but that it wouldn't be at Nationals. I don't suppose it matters to me an ounce what it's called or whether the winners are considered National Champions. I do think its important to have the best of the best go up against each other in a high pressure situation. I think the pressure & expectations on the JGP can be huge. I can't imagine walking into that without ever having even faced it at the novice level. It seems to me that the Japanese & Russian ladies benefit immensely from going up against each other. And the U.S. dancers as well for that matter. And right now--the U.S. men. I mean Nathan, Vincent, Tomoki--these guys have all been facing each other forever. It's made them stronger.

 

[frida80]

General comment: LOL, something along the line of "test skates" already could be part of USFS High Performance Camp, for all we know.

---

Sorry for going off topic, but .. there will?? I hadn't heard of such a thing.

Are you talking about the U.S. Dance Final?
I don't think USFS will consider winners there to be national champions. Certainly not for juniors and seniors.

There definitely is a “test skate” at the Broadmore camp. It’s why so many people often get spots out of the blue. They’re often impressive there, but since this isn’t a formal competition and the selection isn’t as transparent, it makes it easier for an under the radar skater impress at the camp when there it isn’t a full on competition setting. A true competition is so different. Instead of this friendly atmosphere with toons of kids your own age laughing and playing, staying in dorms, wearing fun T-shirt’s, and just having fun. At any sectional or nationals. The kids are quiet, focused, nervous, and super serious. A true test skate shouldn’t use the camp as a formal decider. A competition setting, with a panel of foreign judges, a crowd buses in from local schools, with a formal draw, ice resurfacing and a medal ceremony? That will truly test juniors and mimic true competition conditions.

It will be good for anyone on the JGP or any international competition to feel that sort of high stakes pressure because the real thing is a 1000x worse and the competition is 1000x tougher.

I still flash back to Alexia at JGP in 2016. I remember after her FS her score was 40-50 points lower than the winners. She looked so surprised and disappointed. That year she had the highest score of any US junior on the JGP. Domestically she looked so good. She was one of the few with consistent triple triples. She decided to advance herself artistically. I don’t think it was until that moment she realized how far behind she was the rest of the world.

It wasn’t her fault. She was just in a system that didn’t challenge her enough. In her local competitions she could win easily because she had the technical advantage over other competitors. That meant She didn’t have to be consistent. She could fall on jumps, pop them, and still win. It wasn’t until she was on the international level that those problems became apparent.

That’s what’s missing in the US. Competitions where the highest performing skaters can compete against each other. Side from nationals, there is nothing. The US is huge with tons of local competitions that skaters can win easily. There’s no pressure and no competition. It’s why it’s a bad idea to chose a skater that gets a high score from one of these comps. The skater may have competed at it frequently, skated at th rink a million times, know some of the judges, have no travel time, etc. A test skate would eliminate those advantages. It would force skaters to travel to another location. The judges would be more objective and better qualified. With a serious atmosphere that would force every participant to be well trained, well prepared, and force them to have the mental strength to perform at the JGP.

USFS needs to toughen up our skaters if we ever want better results internationally. Yes we have several ladies training 3As and quads, but what’s the point if they always fold under pressure?

 

[halulupu]

There definitely is a “test skate” at the Broadmore camp. It’s why so many people often get spots out of the blue. Their often impressive there, but since this isn’t a formal competition and the selection isn’t as transparent, it makes it easier for an under the radar skater impress at the camp when there it isn’t a full on competition setting. A true competition is so different. Instead of this friendly atmosphere with toons of kids your own age laughing and playing, staying in dorms, wearing fun T-shirt’s, and just having fun. At any sectional or nationals. The kids are quiet, focused, nervous, and super serious. A true test skate shouldn’t use the camp as a formal decider. A competition setting, with a panel of foreign judges, a crowd buses in from local schools, with a formal draw, ice resurfacing and a medal ceremony? That will truly test juniors and mimic true competition conditions.

It will be good for anyone on the JGP or any international competition to feel that sort of high stakes pressure because the real thing is a 1000x worse and the competition is 1000x tougher.

I still flash back to Alexia at JGP in 2016. I remember after her FS her score was 40-50 points lower than the winners. She looked so surprised and disappointed. That year she had the highest score of any US junior on the JGP. Domestically she looked so good. She was one of the few with consistent triple triples. She decided to advance herself artistically. I don’t think it was until that moment she realized how far behind she was the rest of the world.

It wasn’t her fault. She was just in a system that didn’t challenge her enough. In her local competitions she could win easily because she had the technical advantage over other competitors. That meant She didn’t have to be consistent. She could fall on jumps, pop them, and still win. It wasn’t until she was on the international level that those problems became apparent.

That’s what’s missing in the US. Competitions where the highest performing skaters can compete against each other. Side from nationals, there is nothing. The US is huge with tons of local competitions that skaters can win easily. There’s no pressure and no competition. It’s why it’s a bad idea to chose a skater that gets a high score from one of these comps. The skater may have competed at it frequently, skated at th rink a million times, know some of the judges, have no travel time, etc. A test skate would eliminate those advantages. It would force skaters to travel to another location. The judges would be more objective and better qualified. With a serious atmosphere that would force every participant to be well trained, well prepared, and force them to have the mental strength to perform at the JGP.

USFS needs to toughen up our skaters if we ever want better results internationally. Yes we have several ladies training 3As and quads, but what’s the point if they always fold under pressure?

But arent American test skates sort of happening at champs camps? I mean russisn test skates have never been that polular , only the last 1-2 years

 

[nataliebunard12]

The US federation should be first sending out the ladies and men who placed at junior nationals first. Then depending how they do they should send the next best choices not the other way around.
If a competitor is not as strong at their grand prix and they don't place top 6, the federation shouldn't be sending them to another grand prix. But they also shouldnt be allowed to be sent to another because their coach is well -known.

 

[frida80]

But arent American test skates sort of happening at champs camps? I mean russisn test skates have never been that polular , only the last 1-2 years

No. GP participates are showing their programs to USFS for feedback. In the past some skaters don't even do jumps.

Last year they invited four promising juniors for extra feedback. It wasn't a formal competition. Definately not a test skate situation.

 

[frida80]

The US federation should be first sending out the ladies and men who placed at junior nationals first. Then depending how they do they should send the next best choices not the other way around.
If a competitor is not as strong at their grand prix and they don't place top 6, the federation shouldn't be sending them to another grand prix. But they also shouldnt be allowed to be sent to another because their coach is well -known.

There are seven months between nationals and JGP the next season. Anything can happen between that time. Some skaters may decline and might be far less competitive in just a few months like Hailey. Some skaters may greatly improve over the summer and deserve an opportunity to prove themselves. I think that nationals should be a factor but not a guarantee. Everyone should have to earn their spots by showing their readiness.

 

[macy]

But arent American test skates sort of happening at champs camps? I mean russisn test skates have never been that polular , only the last 1-2 years

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm not 100% sure if the programs at champs camp are used to determine spots on GP or to display readiness, being that it's earlier than russian test skates. i know they give feedback to skaters on their programs and if they should change music, etc but i don't think they're as serious as in russia.

 

[natsulian]

Happiest of birthdays to the reigning national champion Alysa Liu who turns 14 today.

 

[nussnacker]

Best wishes to young champ Alysa! Wishing her to stay healthy and have an amazing debut junior season!

 

[theharleyquinn]

There are seven months between nationals and JGP the next season. Anything can happen between that time. Some skaters may decline and might be far less competitive in just a few months like Hailey. Some skaters may greatly improve over the summer and deserve an opportunity to prove themselves. I think that nationals should be a factor but not a guarantee. Everyone should have to earn their spots by showing their readiness.

We have so little information, but I'm curious about the role Champs Camp is playing in all of this. It seems like that programming could use tweaking also.

 

[SnowWhite]

We have so little information, but I'm curious about the role Champs Camp is playing in all of this. It seems like that programming could use tweaking also.

Champs Camp is primarily for Senior skaters with GP events.