Phil Hersh chimes in on the Quad Revolution

[Mathman]

Interesting summary of opinions.

Some dispute whether the revolution is more illusion than reality. They post videos and engage in ad nauseam debates over whether credit is being given for jumps that are under rotated or, the critics’ favorite bête noire, pre-rotated, which means starting the rotation before takeoff...

A forum comment on the GoldenSkate.com summed up the overheated situation with incisive sarcasm:

“To me, it is painfully obvious that Alysa is a Martian who has come to Earth to destroy the planet. While we’re at it, I think she’s the one behind climate change. I hear that whenever Alysa pre-rotates or under-rotates a quad, the global temperature rises by 1 degree Celsius.”

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/09/19/alysa-liu-figure-skating-quad-revolution/

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Of course he chimed in on this. He's a jump lover.

 

[NaVi]

I was one to lament a possible quad/3A back in 2014-15... when I was stanning Yulia... but one benefit of programs with 3As and quads is it becomes much more rare for 2T to be used in combinations except for on a 3A or quad and doing that hurts TES wise. While an early quad fall can deflate a program, a program that begins with a quad will tend to have more interesting jumps later on.

I would kind of like to see big triple jumps rewarded with something more than a GOE point. An idea I've proposed before is for jumps within the top 10-20% of airtime of some control competition(say, the previous Worlds) be rewarded with a small bonus.

The whole jump bonus system needs reworked... at least for 3A and quads, it should go by minute or divided into 3rds(1:20) rather than by halves. The incentives are not there to take a risk doing a quad later than the first element.

There was a proposal at the last ISU congress that disallowed repeating quads in a program... which I kind of support... but perhaps allow a quad to be repeated but only in the 2nd half.

It'll be interesting to see over time if men or women are more consistent at landing the quad. Not sure the best way to compare them is though.

 

[el henry]

On many things I’m no fan of Phil Hersh’s viewpoint, and particularly the fact that he seems to think that anyone who isn’t completely in love with certain skaters and certain jumps are just fuddy duddies shaking their canes at the inexorable march of progress.

Yeah, right Phil:sarcasm:

but I love love LOVE that he is calling out the so called evidence in manufactured and photoshopped videos for what they are

And of course that he reads GS

 

[katymay]

Pretty well done article, it seems Phil got input from many sources. Young girls are doing some pretty dangerous things in many sports, so the rationale to raise the min. age makes no sense to me. Check out what 11 and 12 year olds are doing in gymnastics. Ariel skiing. Xgames. For that matter, check out the damage done to the average serious ballet dancer.
The irony is, I wonder if Trusova will benefit from the revolution she started, because I can envision a situation whereby others are doing more and better quads by the time the Olympics rolls around. (Kamila and Alysa)

 

[natsulian]

Glad he liked my comment. Also, good points made m, especially concerning the longevity of quad infested careers. We shall see how this all pans out in a few years.

 

[bytheriver]

Pretty well done article, it seems Phil got input from many sources. Young girls are doing some pretty dangerous things in many sports, so the rationale to raise the min. age makes no sense to me. Check out what 11 and 12 year olds are doing in gymnastics. Ariel skiing. Xgames. For that matter, check out the damage done to the average serious ballet dancer.
The irony is, I wonder if Trusova will benefit from the revolution she started, because I can envision a situation whereby others are doing more and better quads by the time the Olympics rolls around. (Kamila and Alysa)

It reminds me of what happened in gymnastics in the 60’s - Larissa Petrik was the first 16 year old on the Soviet World/Olympic team, unheard of for the time (when it was mostly young women competing, not girls). She performed skills no one could have imagined before her, and transformed what was expected of a Soviet Olympic team. Ironically that transformation made it impossible for her to bid for another Olympic team, as she didn’t have the biggest skills anymore post-puberty. Prior to her, gymnasts made it to 2-3 Olympics. Today that is unheard of - the skills got bigger and so did the churn. Even the superbly talented Simone Biles won’t make it to a third Olympics (her body is already nearly exhausted).

Sometimes “progress” means sacrificing talent and potential along the way. I doubt even Kamila and Alysa will benefit from it due to their age and the fact that they are already doing the big jumps. The 2022 and 2026 Olympic champions likely won’t have as much wear and tear to their body by the time the Olympics roll around.

 

[noskates]

I loved this wording; the longevity of quad infested careers This has been my bone of contention for several years now. I love watching Alysa skate but she's a mere child and how long can that little body withstand the constant pounding of landing some of these jumps every day. Same with the baby Russians. I remember when Kurt Browning hurt his back and there was a documentary on what he went through to continue skating - that the force of the pressure of his landing these jumps was taking a toll on his body. I don't remember the exact wording but they talked about the pounds of pressure of landing a 3Axel. Think of what it must be to land a quad!!! I think this sport is getting more and more dangerous and we're seeing more and more injuries occurring in the younger skaters - not to mention the toll on the older skaters. I think Hanyu is skating on glass ankles, for example. I know it's just my opinion and that I'm basically swimming upstream against the popular opinion that wants more and more quads but..............

 

[halulupu]

Pretty well done article, it seems Phil got input from many sources. Young girls are doing some pretty dangerous things in many sports, so the rationale to raise the min. age makes no sense to me. Check out what 11 and 12 year olds are doing in gymnastics. Ariel skiing. Xgames. For that matter, check out the damage done to the average serious ballet dancer.
The irony is, I wonder if Trusova will benefit from the revolution she started, because I can envision a situation whereby others are doing more and better quads by the time the Olympics rolls around. (Kamila and Alysa)

Liu better quads? No way

 

[oly2018]

It's an interesting take. Will women's figure skating go the direction of women's gymnastics? I am an avid fan of both and I find it kind of sad that in both sports, girls basically have to restart their lives before 20 because their bodies can't handle it anymore. Gymnastics has been changing slowly, but the general consensus there seems to be, less difficulty until the athletes can handle it mentally and physically. Figure skating already has a weird age gap between the men's and women's disciplines. The question is whether things will level off in figure skating like they have have in gymnastics where there are a handful of "older" women (early twenties plus Chuso who is in her 40's) who perform high difficulty (sometimes safely and sometimes not.)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It's an interesting take. Will women's figure skating go the direction of women's gymnastics? I am an avid fan of both and I find it kind of sad that in both sports, girls basically have to restart their lives before 20 because their bodies can't handle it anymore.

My biggest concern (besides the health and safety of the athletes) is that the increased technical demands will change the nature of the sport. Since IJS began, there is no firm ceiling on TES, whereas there is on PCS. Under 6.0, even if you were technically strong you still had to have decent artistry and good programs to win. Now, you can make up for the lost points on the second mark by further increasing difficulty. You can even boost your second mark by adding transitions that really don't add much to the program. I just worry we might start seeing difficult but uninteresting programs win big titles, and that could turn off casual fans.

 

[nussnacker]

No idea why some users (and reporters now too) like to pretend Alysa is scrutinized more than any other girls doing quads. She's not, let's be real, Trusova and Shcherbakova have been getting a lot more criticism last year/2 years ago than anyone else is getting now. She's not "the naysayers’ favorite “it wasn’t rotated/it was pre-rotated” target", other ladies have been getting way harsher and bigger criticism about pre-rotations. Can we think about...um... Satoko Miyahara or Evgenia Medvedeva too? They were scrutinized like nobody else, so let's not blow things out of proportion.
I adore Alysa, but this is a drastic dramatization of her getting called out on her prerotation, similar things have been happening for a long time now to other skaters. Yes, people dissected her jumps, it's not like she got treatment any different to other junior/senior girls, what's the big deal suddenly?

Phil, if you're reading this, I get your feeling got hurt when it's your compatriot that's being the target of tech experts of the internet, everyone feels the same when it's "their" girls who are getting the flack. But come on, get over it. It will happen and it will happen to every single skater who's in podium contention. Don't want to get criticized? The only way is to jump like Yuzuru or Yuna. In other cases, it's time to swallow the pride and accept the reality, the toe jumps of most ladies (and quite a few men) are rarely perfect textbook quality, so they'll get called for it, and so be it.

 

[Tolstoj]

Personally i have mixed feelings on this topic.

On the one side, it's clear that in other to reach better quads as a standard we have to go through many attempts which aren't good.

On the other i don't think judges should overlook underrotations just because "ladies quad is impressive", you should treat it just like any other jump and while there is not a clear deduction for pre-rotation, you can give lower GOE considering it as part of a bad execution.

This applies to any skater, not just Alysa Liu.

 

[el henry]

....

Phil, if you're reading this, I get your feeling got hurt when it's your compatriot that's being the target of tech experts of the internet,
....

First of all, "tech experts of the internet". Quite the oxymoron

I feel like I do need to, heaven forfend, say one point in support of Phil. He has many opinions with which I heartily disagree, including disregarding my favorite skater's many gifts and pretending that if you don't like *his* favorite skater, you have a screw loose.

But never, ever, have I gotten the impression that Phil has his feelings hurt, on any subject Quite the opposite, if you disagree, he's right, you're wrong (the universal "you", not you personally) and he's going to lay it out for you.

Until you see things his way

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

On the other i don't think judges should overlook underrotations just because "ladies quad is impressive", you should treat it just like any other jump and while there is not a clear deduction for pre-rotation, you can give lower GOE considering it as part of a bad execution.

In practice, this could be hard. Take-offs aren't shown in slo-mo to the panel and sometimes it can be difficult to determine exactly how much prerotation occurred in real time. You can literally blink and miss half the jump as fast as these women are able to rotate.

 

[Mathman]

But never, ever, have I gotten the impression that Phil has his feelings hurt, on any subject .

True, true. Mr. Hersh likes nothing better than when someone disagrees with him so he can set them straight. :yes:

In this he shows his respect for the sport. He is not afraid to come out swinging, just like sportswriters who cover bash-em-up sports like rugby or hockey.

And in fact, this particular article is pretty even-handed. He lists the complaints that people have about the direction the sport is taking. But at the same time he makes clear his own position: suck it up, wimps.

 

[katymay]

True, true. Mr. Hersh likes nothing better than when someone disagrees with him so he can set them straight. :yes:

In this he shows his respect for the sport. He is not afraid to come out swinging, just like sportswriters who cover bash-em-up sports like rugby or hockey.

And in fact, this particular article is pretty even-handed. He lists the complaints that people have about the direction the sport is taking. But at the same time he makes clear his own position: suck it up, wimps.

And he is right. Rika was hitting 3A's, Trusova the quads and Alysa both quads and 3A's. And skaters world wide scrambled to catch up. And catch up they have and will, and it wouldn't surprise me to see better 3A's and better quads then are being done right now. (Not to mention Mirai-knowing it was her best shot-got the 3A). Alysa's tech score today put the competition away, and I felt sad for the others. BUT, all of the top girls are capable of doing a 3A or a quad, or both, so in a way, it is 'suck it up wimps', and it is no different than the men who were winnowed out years ago.

 

[tokoyami]

i dont mind progress, i mind it when quality of elements are being sacrificed for so called "progress". I also mind it when this so called "progress" relies heavily on what flag flies next to your name so that the TP is nice to you

imma be real, quads and 3a are exciting to me and i love that they are becoming more common with the ladies but what I said above still stands regardless of gender

 

[Elucidus]

I just worry we might start seeing difficult but uninteresting programs win big titles, and that could turn off casual fans.

But casual fans loves quads Usual spectators aren't that educated in music or ballet - they doesn't have such refined tastes. As long as music is catchy - is good enough for them. But big jumps, cantilevers etc are always deserving great applauses regardless of program. Your complains reminds me more of grumblings of narrow circle of snobbish elitists rather tham sincere concern for casual fans well being
Let the spectators decide themselves whether difficult programs are boring or not Numbers of Trusova's programs views in youtube tells us what you said is not true and it seems you are just trying to make some "fake concerns" to justify your agenda..

 

[Interspectator]

Personally i have mixed feelings on this topic.

On the one side, it's clear that in other to reach better quads as a standard we have to go through many attempts which aren't good.

On the other i don't think judges should overlook underrotations just because "ladies quad is impressive", you should treat it just like any other jump and while there is not a clear deduction for pre-rotation, you can give lower GOE considering it as part of a bad execution.

This applies to any skater, not just Alysa Liu.

I agree with this.
I love a well executed quad or 3A, it doesn't matter who does it.
But what makes me disappointed recently is the uneveness of scoring these jumps. Technical progress can equal harder jumps if the jump is good.
But consider X skater, who blows away the competition with their technical prowess, getting 10+ points for each quad or triple axel, but the technique is iffy... fans are not trolls who ask for more scrutiny for a jump that is going to net the skater so many points. When winning or losing a competition depends on these elements, there should be a concerted effort for more accurate scrutiny, not less, or such advances are indeed an illusion.

However, comments about skaters can be nasty and ill-intentioned, biased and plain bullying too. So when looking at the reactions to a skater's latest quad or triple axel, one could lump it all into 'nice' comments commending a skater for their accomplishment, or 'bad' comments just being trolls. But I hope the folks drawing up the rules for the next few years can take into account the real issues that are holding the sport back from being more legit and equitable in judging. -More camera angles for tech review and a sticking to the letter of the law when calling jumps.

I'm a casual fan and spectator of other sports, and so many of them benefit from high quality surround cameras. Even artistic gymnastics has a system in place where a technical call can be challenged.


I want to see a beautiful quad or 3A to get full marks +GOE. If a skater can't do that, then a beautiful triple to get full marks and + GOE. I live in hope.