Phil Hersh chimes in on the Quad Revolution

[TallyT]

Of course the jawdropping jumping whizzes have their place (I heartily detest Trusova but there is no doubt in my mind she will be World Champion at least once and a big star if maybe only short term), but a revolving door of wunderkinder, especially prepubescent wunderkinder, isn't going to do much to increase the depth and longevity of the fan base, or make for figure skating to be a sport worth investing your youth in or look for a post-competition career in. That's a trade-off the ISU are going to have to live with or do something about.

The skating skills/artistry supremes should also have their place (Takahashi, Jason and Caroline have had long and warmly cherished careers for a reason), and most of all, those who combine both plus a decent longevity, and can add in the gloriously chimerical thing that is star charisma are rare but to be cherished. We need real superstars, those who can call on fan love even in their harder times. Yuna, Mao, and Plushenko are recent names that come to mind (Yuzu is a special case okay? - in part because of circumstances that no ISU or anyone else could hope or want to replicate)

But Grand Slam Alina, now called a superstar - if she falters and is overtaken now (which looks likely) less than two years into her time at the top... will she really be remembered very much in years to come? People are pushing Alysa now, but Gracie was older and more experienced, and what did all the pushing achieve there? The Worlds bronze medallist competed this weekend, with quite reasonable priced tickets, and attracted what size audience?

I very much doubt that we are going to see a real superstar again for a while. Which is sad for people like me, but hey, plenty of sports manage... and I could be wrong.

 

[el henry]

But casual fans loves quads Usual spectators aren't that educated in music or ballet - they doesn't have such refined tastes. As long as music is catchy - is good enough for them. But big jumps, cantilevers etc are always deserving great applauses regardless of program. Your complains reminds me more of grumblings of narrow circle of snobbish elitists rather tham sincere concern for casual fans well being
Let the spectators decide themselves whether difficult programs are boring or not Numbers of Trusova's programs views in youtube tells us what you said is not true and it seems you are just trying to make some "fake concerns" to justify your agenda..

I understand this is your point of view, but the opposite point of view is just as valid. I could replace some of these words, and for me, it would be true::

Casual fans do not love quads. Casual fans can't tell four revolutions from three revolutions. They just can't. Complaints that jumps are the most important part of figure skating remind me of grumblings of a narrow circle of jump elitists rather than sincere concern for casual fans wellbeing.

It seems to me that posts that support a finding that a casual fan loves quads is just trying to make "fake concerns" to support their own favorite skaters who perform many quads."

There are no studies, no actual marketing analyses that I know of, to support either of these views. Both can be sincerely held. And YouTube views are great (hey, as a Jason fan, I love them) but meaningless to analyze what a casual fan wants. If they are, Donovan Carrillo, who just recently, as a senior, landed his 3Axel, will be first and foremost among all the junior skaters. I :luv17: that result. :thumbsup:

In the end, we all use our own experience. And mine would be that casual fans want great skating first. Spins, hydroblades, step sequences, interpretation, and mostly, skating. Which may or may not include four revolution jumping.

We're all just offering opinions.

 

[Interspectator]

On the topic of how much casual spectators love a quad or 3A, my personal experience is, Han Yan's 3A, Yuzu's Quads, or Boyang's 4Lz will WOW the crowd. They will go nuts. A small quad or 3A will barely make a casual fan blink unless it's explained.
Kaori's 3Lo, Kolyada's 3Lz the crowd will go nuts. Etc.

 

[Mathman]

We're all just offering opinions.

After Trusova's performance, my opinion is that the war is over and we lost. The sport will never again be what it once was. Some people will be sad about this, others, I suppose, will rejoice.

 

[katymay]

After Trusova's performance, my opinion is that the war is over and we lost. The sport will never again be what it once was. Some people will be sad about this, others, I suppose, will rejoice.

I love quads. But I think when you see a quadster scoring 90 or more in tech-thus putting the competition out of reach-we have come to a point where figure skating needs two separate disciplines.
Athletic figure skating M/F: No PCS score, only GOE.
Artistic Figure skating: PCS 70% or more of the score, no more than 7 jumps, no quads.

I think we have reached a point where figure skating really is two distinct sports. One is pure sport, the other is a mix of sport and art. There ought to be a forum for both.

 

[Arbitrary]

I love quads. But I think when you see a quadster scoring 90 or more in tech-thus putting the competition out of reach-we have come to a point where figure skating needs two separate disciplines.
Athletic figure skating M/F: No PCS score, only GOE.
Artistic Figure skating: PCS 70% or more of the score, no more than 7 jumps, no quads.

I think we have reached a point where figure skating really is two distinct sports. One is pure sport, the other is a mix of sport and art. There ought to be a forum for both.

Like two separate boxing tournaments: a) for the power of punch and b) for the beauty of dancing in the ring.

 

[Elucidus]

Of course the jawdropping jumping whizzes have their place (I heartily detest Trusova but there is no doubt in my mind she will be World Champion at least once and a big star if maybe only short term), but a revolving door of wunderkinder, especially prepubescent wunderkinder, isn't going to do much to increase the depth and longevity of the fan base, or make for figure skating to be a sport worth investing your youth in or look for a post-competition career in. That's a trade-off the ISU are going to have to live with or do something about.

Popularuty of fs raised manyfold comparing to previous years - exactly in last two seasons which were pinnacle of "prepubescent wunderkinders" success - at least in Russia. That's just a fact. Also I am sure Alysa Liu is pushing already fs popularity in America too - and will do so even more successfully in couple of next years. What you said is just your narration and what I said is current reality

The skating skills/artistry supremes should also have their place (Takahashi, Jason and Caroline have had long and warmly cherished careers for a reason), and most of all, those who combine both plus a decent longevity, and can add in the gloriously chimerical thing that is star charisma are rare but to be cherished. We need real superstars, those who can call on fan love even in their harder times. Yuna, Mao, and Plushenko are recent names that come to mind (Yuzu is a special case okay? - in part because of circumstances that no ISU or anyone else could hope or want to replicate)

You need a real superstar. Learn to talk for yourself and yourself only, please There are lots of different people with different tastes, views and opinions - and not everybody is attracted to fs by certain individual only. There are other models of attraction - one of them is appreciation of highly competitive environment with fast-paced tech progress and always changing group of leaders with constant fierce and unpredictable struggle. People attracted to fs by recent wild growth of tech difficulty, quad revolution etc. - they are not that attached to certain person. They appreciate sport, competition of hard jumps, unexpected wins by "dark horses" grabbing their medal with quad jump (for example Tursynbaeva in last WC) - that what is interesting for them first and foremost. Even if they don't care about Tursynbaeva at all and even if she would vanish from their horizon for good after that - beauty of the moment is what matters for that crowd the most. And not stardom status or worship of a particular skater. It's debatable whether this model of attraction is more "right" or "wrong" - but it exists and it brings numerous new people to watch and appreciate fs as really interesting sport discipline I think interests of that people should be respected too.

But Grand Slam Alina, now called a superstar - if she falters and is overtaken now (which looks likely) less than two years into her time at the top... will she really be remembered very much in years to come?

In Russia - she will.

People are pushing Alysa now, but Gracie was older and more experienced, and what did all the pushing achieve there? The Worlds bronze medallist competed this weekend, with quite reasonable priced tickets, and attracted what size audience?

Again, problem is that in America fs is not very popular now - even Hanyu attracted mostly japanese spectators to be on the rink seats. Medvedeva's participation would attract much more people to watch it if that competition was held in Russia. Hell, it attracted people even without her - JGP(!) event in Chelyabinsk - with mostly no-name skaters - had many thousands of people in the rink watching them hungrily. There was only Valieva (who can't even be considred as real star by your standarts) amoung notable contenders though

I very much doubt that we are going to see a real superstar again for a while. Which is sad for people like me, but hey, plenty of sports manage... and I could be wrong.

Do we need that real stars you are talking about (I presume they should have like 10 years of senior career under their belt to be considered real?) to make fs popular again? At least in Russia - no, we don't.

 

[Fluture]

What you said is just your narration and what I said is current reality

You need a real superstar. Learn to talk for yourself and yourself only, please

Such posts are really funny. Thank you for offering your infinite wisdom to us peasants, telling us what the "current reality" is and what "everyone" wants from this sport. I'm not going to engage in a discussion right now, it seems pretty pointless. Just politely suggesting you listen to your own advice. Learning to talk for oneself and oneself only and all that. If others should do it, maybe so should you.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

After Trusova's performance, my opinion is that the war is over and we lost. The sport will never again be what it once was. Some people will be sad about this, others, I suppose, will rejoice.

Well, every thing around us will never again be what it once was. Things are changing. That's life.

 

[Elucidus]

Such posts are really funny. Thank you for offering your infinite wisdom to us peasants, telling us what the "current reality" is and what "everyone" wants from this sport. I'm not going to engage in a discussion right now, it seems pretty pointless. Just politely suggesting you listen to your own advice. Learning to talk for oneself and oneself only and all that. If others should do it, maybe so should you.

Yeah, I admit I was a little bit haughty. Sorry about that. But it was in response to similar haughtiness as well - which no one was going to oppose as that view on fs seems to be an accepted narration in this forum.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I understand this is your point of view, but the opposite point of view is just as valid. I could replace some of these words, and for me, it would be true::

Casual fans do not love quads. Casual fans can't tell four revolutions from three revolutions. They just can't. Complaints that jumps are the most important part of figure skating remind me of grumblings of a narrow circle of jump elitists rather than sincere concern for casual fans wellbeing.

There are no studies, no actual marketing analyses that I know of, to support either of these views.

Actually, you can listen reaction of people in the arena to conclude that. Which element/part of the programme is getting the biggest reaction/cheers/applause from the crowd? It's more often a jumping element and more often a jump which appears as bigger and higher and has more time in the air. Which is more common a quad.

 

[Mathman]

Like two separate boxing tournaments: a) for the power of punch and b) for the beauty of dancing in the ring.

Actually, there is something to that view. Some people, I suppose, enjoy watching a man beat another into unconsciousness. Others like dancing. :yes:

 

[Mathman]

Well, every thing around us will never again be what it once was. Things are changing. That's life.

True. "Now you grandmas and grandpas throughout the land, Don't try to stop something you can't understand, For the times they are a-changing." :yes:

But it was the last sentence of my post that carried the thrust of the message: "Some people will be sad at this change, others will rejoice."

 

[Mathman]

Of course the jawdropping jumping whizzes have their place ... but a revolving door of wunderkinder, especially prepubescent wunderkinder, isn't going to do much to increase the depth and longevity of the fan base ...

This is an interesting question. Historically, figure skating has been an intensely personal endeavor, especially in the United States. People came out to see Janet Lynn because she was Janet Lynn. At Michelle Kwan's peak of popularity the least little cheesefest or television special featuring Michelle would be guaranteed to make money. No Michelle, you don't have a show.

But in many sports, fans were perfectly content to give continuing loyalty to the team even though the players are different each year.

For the Olympics every four years national pride and patriotism comes briefly to the fore, but in general I would say that the "Team Tutberidze" thing is a new phenomenon in figure skating. Fans in Russia root enthusiastically for Medvedeva one year, Zagitova the next, now Trusova, next Valieva. You change the spokes but the wheel keeps rolling, and the fans love it. :yes:

Worldwide, it seems to me as a casual observer, that Japan is the only country where lots of people are genuinely interested in the sport itself and not necessarily in one individual athlete (or coaching school) or another. (Hanyu being an exceptional case, as you mention. )

 

[Lamente Ariane]

Casual fans do not love quads. Casual fans can't tell four revolutions from three revolutions. They just can't.

This is also my experience. The casual fans I've known have gotten just as excited over an Ina Bauer perfectly timed to the music, a great cantilever or a hydroblade as a (clean) quad jump. Maybe more so in some cases, because it's something they fully understand. My mother was shocked when she found out elements like those are often not worth any points other than as a transition.

But at the end of the day, casual fans are not filling arenas (if they were, would they be so casual?) so it seems to me it's somewhat irrelevant.

 

[neud]

I love quads. But I think when you see a quadster scoring 90 or more in tech-thus putting the competition out of reach-we have come to a point where figure skating needs two separate disciplines.
Athletic figure skating M/F: No PCS score, only GOE.
Artistic Figure skating: PCS 70% or more of the score, no more than 7 jumps, no quads.

Why just "no quads"? No jumps. Pure artistry stripped of these infamous and unaesthetic elements.

 

[TallyT]

Popularity of fs raised manyfold comparing to previous years - exactly in last two seasons which were pinnacle of "prepubescent wunderkinders" success - at least in Russia.

In. Russia. And only when they win (witness that little girl in the Russian thread who was bluntly told to GTFO and stop embarrassing herself by taking up the competition spot she'd damn well earned). Few people outside your country - even people who like skating - can confidently tell the 3A apart, and reading the Russian ladies' thread makes it clear that even in your country not many care to. Why bother? Chances are they'll be obsolescent as well as pubescent before the next Olympics.

And you really think big international sports don't need big stars? Please. Look at every. single. major. mass. sport in the world. They all have them, create, celebrate and benefit from them, it's the nature of the game (and I speaketh of what I know, I come from a country where the two greatest sporting historical stars are a cricket player... and a horse).

Look, I said we need the people who can do the sublime jumping thing as well as people who can, you know, actually do the sublime skating thing. But what's the harm in wishing for those rare incandescent immortals who combine both? You sound rather dog in manger "my favourites can't do it, so no one should be admired for it!!!"

I have said before (and history has shown before), any pasttime which is only for a few countries will end up in a few countries. I know you are feeling on top of the Fortuna wheel because your girls are currently trouncing the field and why not? - to tell truth, both of my favourite men, Yuzu and Javi, went for the upping the tech level in their time as a way to compete against then skating nonpareil Patrick Chan.

But nothing lasts forever, mate. What happens when Eteri's professional arteries start hardening, as happens to us all? Will you all turn on them if someone finds a way around them? Or even if Rika or Alysa take Olympic gold? Well, we know what'll happen in the wider world because the disgusting online displays of non-sportsmanship towards Alysa made that clear.

(By the way, a nonsequitor: Yuzuru's audience indeed include a large number of Japanese, who scrimp and save to follow him all over the world and fight like banshees to get tickets the minute they are issued, but so are there fans and a lot of them from all over the world. There's a good reason why Citizen are paying him big bucks to be their Chinese spokesman. But as I said, Yuzu is a special case, even among superstars)

 

[TallyT]

But in many sports, fans were perfectly content to give continuing loyalty to the team even though the players are different each year.

True. But with two important caveats - firstly even in team sports they develop individuals as stars (hell even cricket - cricket!! has them) where intense loyalty spills from star to team and vice versa. We're human, we like to see people triumph. And the rewards are individual, and can be great.

Secondly, a lot of team sports have or develop ingrained 'tribal' loyalty where you follow them through thick and (sometimes heartbreakingly) thin. Since Tutberidze is possibly skating's first real team, we have no way of telling of that sort of loyalty is going to develop along the way... or what will happen if team fractures appear in the chase for what is definitely NOT team glory, whether Olympic or Worlds.

 

[yude]

(By the way, a nonsequitor: Yuzuru's audience are indeed mostly Japanese, who scrimp and save to follow him all over the world and fight like banshees to get tickets the minute they are issued, but so do fans from all over the world. There's a good reason why Citizen are paying him big bucks to be their Chinese spokesman. But as I said, Yuzu is a special case, even among superstars)

It's kind of amusing to see all companies Yuzuru made contract with like Kose, Citizen, Lotte on the board at the competitions

 

[Mathman]

I come from a country where the two greatest sporting historical stars are a cricket player... and a horse).

Well, naturally. Horses are innately cool.

Human athletes? Meh.