Tuktamysheva's scores

[[email protected]]

I agree with you. But i don't think of Russia only ladies Grand Prix final will happen I think four is doable five possible.

Well, speaking about SA in particular, there was a LOT of questionable judging that certainly did not favor the Russian skaters. Liza is not the only one who got hosed. In general, though, seeing these boring watered down Mishin programs year after year and comparing them to the much more complex programs of Eteri's girls and some of the Japanese girls, it's very easy to see why the judges are over it. She's not the only 3A in town now and the others have much more to offer.

Dima was dealt a crappy hand at SA, too, and he did not throw attitude or sulk. He accepted it calmly. Everyone is human and we can't always control our emotions, but I don't personally feel inclined to feel sorry for someone who seems to be developing an entitlement complex. Pay attention to the message you're being sent, and go work on your weaknesses. That's the only thing that is going to make a difference.

All Mishin's skaters look very old-fashioned now. He's too set in his ways to change his approach, or he would have done it already when Eteri's school started to rise. So Liza will just need to decide what she really wants and make some difficult decisions.

There are big differences between Dima's and Liza's dynamics. Dima had a bad last season. Now he is finding his mojo. Looks like he is going to be the leading man with Kolyada's unclear health status. I am sure that another performance like SA and his scores will start to rise.

With Liza we all remember what was not back in 2015 but just a season ago. She won SC scoring similarly to today but with just one 3A landed and 3T-3T as the key combo. Then she scored 219 at NHK with 2 3As but the second one did not have a good landing. Finally, she scored 215 at GPF. Without a good 3A in 2 programs she became third at GPF. She was on the rise. It looked like what she only needs is bringing 3 triple axels and getting them stable. Then there was pneumonia. Then there was Russian Cup controversy. Finally, she appeared at WTT and delivered 2 clean 3As. Her score was 234 and we cannot just laugh at WTT. Bradie was there and received 225 - 9 points less. Rika was there and lost to Liza. That's how the last season ended. This season Liza starts with 3 triple axels. I am sure that she expects score above 230 but she ends up with 205. It is very different indeed with Dima's situation.

As for Russia only GPF, yes, now it won't happen. Liza was a real threat at the very beginning of the season. Once again, without good 3A she was third at the previous GPF losing only to Kihira whose injury status was not known when this season started. And she beat Rika at WTT. Scores are scores but Rika was competing and lost. Now Liza is no longer a threat. It just happened.

 

[Mishaminion]

Liza only has herself to blame. 2015 was not as competitive, and she has not improved certain aspects of her skating since then, in fact in some areas she seems to have gone backwards.

 

[Orlov]

You have no idea where the tech panel's camera is. And yet you try to claim that a 2D image that looks UR from your POV must also be UR for the tech panel, and if it's not, then a skater is being unfairly favored! Very constructive and productive and objective.

How do you know those lines drawn "on the ice" are actually on the ice when all you have is a blank white canvas of ice and a camera in continuous movement? How did you analyze at which angle the camera is filming the skater's blade against the ice? Are you an AI? Do you have access to an AI, or the exact angles so you can plot them into a mathematical equation or 3D mapping software? Do you have direct access to the streaming/TV camera's 3D position at any given moment? No, what you have is a line you drew free-hand on a blank surface of low resolution which you're looking at from an angle you didn't even bother to try to calculate. At least you could do us all the favor of keeping this contained to youtube, but no, you can't even do that.

First, I drawn the red line near the blade on take-off. Secondly, I drew the line so that at the time of landing the blade was also near to the line. To everything else, this will lead to the fact that the red line will coincide with the direction of flight. In addition, we have one more additional control - the line is drawn parallel to the direction (approximately of course) of the blade just before the push. Thirdly, we see the angle of rotation of the blade after landing.

And the fourth. Yes, you are right - the viewing direction can distort angle. But in this case, it cannot turn an acute angle into an obtuse angle. It's simple - using thumb and forefinger, make a angle, just right now. The thumb is the red line in my video, the forefinger is the purple line. And now tilt the plane of your angle (just turn the hand). See? You cannot make an acute angle an obtuse angle.

So, all your "smarty" words it's just attempt to confuse.

 

[theharleyquinn]

Respectfully disagree about Kerrigan, I lived in the United States in 1994 and for two years after and there was huge backlash against her. Her comments(something like Oksana was holding up the ceremony redoing her make up even though she'll "only end up crying again") on Oksana were uncalled for and straight up bitchy. Oksana was not off "doing god knows what" they were trying to find the Ukranian anthem...hence the delay.
That she deserved gold is also your own opinion. There's no question Nancy was a victim of a horrible attack and fought back admirably but her behaviour following her Olympic FS and at Disneyworld was not that of a fully grown woman or a true champion.

I hope there isn't an all Russian GPF, it isn't that they don't deserve it but that we all want there to be more skaters stepping up to challenge them. Makes it more interesting and gives other country's fans something to cheer for

I wish people could enjoy skaters because of their skating and not which country they represent. There is always Worlds and Euros/4CC for more countries to be represented. I like that the GPF rewards those who skated well and doesn't limit participants.

 

[TontoK]

That may be true, but I don't think that there is anything "a lot of people" can do about it. Numbers are numbers.

Yep. Let 'em skate. Whoever does the best goes.

And who, exactly, are these people who seem to have printed the programs for the GPF before Skate America started?

Do people not realize these competition actually have to be skated? Do they think it's a paperwork activity?

Lots of things... LOTS... can happen over the course of a season. Including, hopefully, the emergence of a new star that nobody saw coming.

There could be an all Russian final. There could be a NO Russian final. Time will tell, and all the forum posturing in the world isn't going to change the outcome.

 

[silverfoxes]

WTT scores are always inflated, nobody takes them seriously. Yes, she has a great and stable 3A. But again - what about the rest of the program? Now there are multiple other girls with quads or 3A, and they are not one-trick ponies. One element is not going to save you if everything else is just average. Not when the field is as deep as it is now.

 

[Mishaminion]

I wish people could enjoy skaters because of their skating and not which country they represent. There is always Worlds and Euros/4CC for more countries to be represented. I like that the GPF rewards those who skated well and doesn't limit participants.

That is true but people do want to see their own national skaters do well.

 

[composer]

I think Liza may indeed have missed the memo last year that the 3A were coming... among the senior Russian ladies isn’t she the only one who hasn’t lost a competition to the 3A until this season (having missed RusNats last season)?
If we are thinking conspiracy I’m more inclined to think that the RusFed simply has more skaters to push this year and could only spare so much politicking for her... while all the other federations have more ... concentrated ... resources so to speak.
It’ll be interesting to see how Evgenia does next week.

 

[[email protected]]

WTT scores are always inflated, nobody takes them seriously. Yes, she has a great and stable 3A. But again - what about the rest of the program? Now there are multiple other girls with quads or 3A, and they are not one-trick ponies. One element is not going to save you if everything else is just average. Not when the field is as deep as it is now.

That's my whole point which is quite convenient for some to call "conspiracy". The non-russian field is not deeper now than a season ago. In fact in Japan there are Rika, Kaori, and Satoko. Satoko has reached the limit and her maximum score is more or less predictable - it is below 220. Kaori may be brilliant. But she is not only inconsistent - she does not have big jumps. Last season started with Wakaba as a world silver medalist and Mako was on the rise. There were hopes that Eunsoo Lim would make a difference. We saw them all at SA and no, this is not their season. So in fact, non-Russian field is not deeper - it is shallower than the last year. There are no new names. And Liza could beat all the incumbents but Rika comfortably. It was just a year ago and Liza is better now. Well, she is not worse in general and she has 3 triple axels. She could but now she cannot.

The only key difference is that Russian field with 3A coming of age has become insane. And it can surely spillover. That's were comes my "conspiracy". If it were like the last season for her efforts Liza would have received at least 220. Thus Rusnats, Rusnats, Rusnats...

 

[temadd]

I have always been a fan of Liza's light, lofty lutz and toe. But to be honest, I was at Skate America and for some reason those 2 jumps were much less impressive than usual. They looked just average to me. Has she been working on the axel so much that she has neglected the others?

 

[RemyRose]

I think Liza may indeed have missed the memo last year that the 3A were coming... among the senior Russian ladies isn’t she the only one who hasn’t lost a competition to the 3A until this season (having missed RusNats last season)?

She lost to Kostornaia at Senior Nationals 2018 (2017-2018 season) when Alena won bronze. Tukt finished 7th.

 

[Lipea]

Last time I looked at the results last season, Alina beat Liza at the GPF, so I don't understand why you're comparing them.

I'm not here to rehash the decision that was made last year. I'm only noting that Liza's inability to command a high PCS score compared to the top of the field last season (Zagitova, Kihira, Sakamoto, etc.) was a liability to a team where it was not certain how Zagitova could perform. The federation trusted Medvedeva as a PCS anchor. Whether you agree with it or not, there was data that made it a rational decision.

What data?
Regarding Alina beating Liza at last year GPF - please go and rewatch those performances if you don’t remember them. This was one example of unfairness towards her.
But okay, that was an Olympic Champion. However, now it went beyond all possible explanations. Now she gets nonexisting URs, and with 3 triple axels loses 12 points to a winner-of-nothing-internationally Tennell, who didn’t skate clean, messing up her last combination; thus making only 6 triples in LP.

Medvedeva is slow, extremely slow. And her last year programs had no more choreography than Liza’s. Neither it had TES content comparable to Tuktamysheva’s. And their final two skates of the last season (and the scores) showed, who should have gone to the Worlds.

Liza is a great performer. Nearly everyone I heard from who watched her live confirmed it. Her performance and interpretation marks shouldn’t be lower than others. It’s really only Eteri girls, Satoko and Kihira, who have the difficulty of programs in terms of the choreo a head above than others. Not Medvedeva, Tennell, and Sakomoto.

 

[Mishaminion]

What data?
Regarding Alina beating Liza at last year GPF - please go and rewatch those performances if you don’t remember them. This was one example of unfairness towards her.
But okay, that was an Olympic Champion. However, now it went beyond all possible explanations. Now she gets nonexisting URs, and with 3 triple axels loses 12 points to a winner-of-nothing-internationally Tennell, who didn’t skate clean, messing up her last combination; thus making only 6 triples in LP.

Medvedeva is slow, extremely slow. And her last year programs had no more choreography than Liza’s. Neither it had TES content comparable to Tuktamysheva’s. And their final two skates of the last season (and the scores) showed, who should have gone to the Worlds.

Liza is a great performer. Nearly everyone I heard from who watched her live confirmed it. Her performance and interpretation marks shouldn’t be lower than others. It’s really only Eteri girls, Satoko and Kihira, who have the difficulty of programs in terms of the choreo a head above than others. Not Medvedeva, Tennell, and Sakomoto.

Oh boy, you claimed you actually like Tennell and I'd hate to see how you talk about a skater you don't like. Your extreme bias is fully on display here, even dragging Alina and Evgenia into it now... who were not even at SA

 

[Lipea]

WTT scores are always inflated, nobody takes them seriously. Yes, she has a great and stable 3A. But again - what about the rest of the program? Now there are multiple other girls with quads or 3A, and they are not one-trick ponies. One element is not going to save you if everything else is just average. Not when the field is as deep as it is now.

The WTT scores of last season were just as generous as Worlds scores. Look at nice pluses on Medvedeva’s “lutz”.

 

[Lipea]

Oh boy, you claimed you actually like Tennell and I'd hate to see how you talk about a skater you don't like. Your extreme bias is fully on display here, even dragging Alina and Evgenia into it now... who were not even at SA

It’s not my bias. It’s bias of everyone who is trying to explain why Liza is being judged so low in TES using the same, subjective words not-TEs related. Your biases are based on judges biases who play politics, rejecting any kind of rational analysis.
I have no hate towards Tennell, I just gave an argument example to someone’s explanation of why Alina was put ahead of Liza at GPF last year.

 

[Mishaminion]

It’s not my bias. It’s bias of everyone who is trying to explain why Liza is being judged so low in TES using the same, subjective words not-TEs related. Your biases are based on judges biases who play politics, rejecting any kind of rational analysis.
I have no hate towards Tennell, I just gave an argument example to someone’s explanation of why Alina was put ahead of Liza at GPF last year.

Because Alina was better. Simple.

If you have no hate towards Bradie, stop using phrases like winner-of-nothing. It's very unfair

 

[theharleyquinn]

What data?
Regarding Alina beating Liza at last year GPF - please go and rewatch those performances if you don’t remember them. This was one example of unfairness towards her.
But okay, that was an Olympic Champion. However, now it went beyond all possible explanations. Now she gets nonexisting URs, and with 3 triple axels loses 12 points to a winner-of-nothing-internationally Tennell, who didn’t skate clean, messing up her last combination; thus making only 6 triples in LP.

Medvedeva is slow, extremely slow. And her last year programs had no more choreography than Liza’s. Neither it had TES content comparable to Tuktamysheva’s. And their final two skates of the last season (and the scores) showed, who should have gone to the Worlds.

Liza is a great performer. Nearly everyone I heard from who watched her live confirmed it. Her performance and interpretation marks shouldn’t be lower than others. It’s really only Eteri girls, Satoko and Kihira, who have the difficulty of programs in terms of the choreo a head above than others. Not Medvedeva, Tennell, and Sakomoto.

At the end of the day, Liza wasn't chosen for Worlds. WTT was roughly one month after Worlds, and Rusfed decided in February that Liza was not ready to skate at Worlds in March. Russia got one of the best results they could've hoped for: gold and bronze and 3 spots maintained. We'll never know how she would've skated there, but we can talk about how she is skating now.

I have seen Liza skate live and she is very slow with limited ice coverage and a lot of two-footed skating. You keep talking about her TES and performance and interpretation, but that does not make up an entire score. Liza performs basic choreography well. Other skaters perform more difficult choreography well and their scores are higher as a result. Bradie and Kaori have more complex transitions than Liza.

Liza did not deliver triple triples. Her programs are missing high value technical elements outside of the 3As, so she's already working at a deficit compared to some others. Three 3As can only do so much. They're not a guarantee for a medal. You are being unreasonably biased.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I do think Bradie got a home event scoring boost which is natural and always happens. And perhaps she got the benefit of doubt on some things that she wouldn't anywhere else which is natural as well. I do believe though on neutral soil the final Bradie and Liza scores would have been closer. If the end result changes or not I can't say

 

[Mathman]

Oh, come on. I know that I myself play this game sometimes. But I know about it when I try to be impartial at least with myself. There are no fully objective numbers when there are human callers.

I took your reference to what "lots of people" don't want as meaning, well, us. If you mean, lots of ISU judges and technical callers (and their supposed puppeteers), I don't know. "In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." In every sport, some calls go in your favor, some go against you.

Anyway, what I mostly believe is this. With so many skaters trying quads and triple Axels, base value ("numbers") trumps everything, and it will be increasingly difficult for conniving judges to deny the top skaters the scores that they earn, or at least it will be more and more transparent if they try to do so.

 

[Mathman]

First, I drawn the red line near the blade on take-off...

Why?

The game is in the books. On to Skate Canada!