2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

I agree, maybe she needed something stronger to represent her natural fierce and determined expression. Like a powerful movie soundtrack (Kill Bill and 5th Element were perfect matches last year), energetic classical piece (like Peer Gynt) or maybe rock/metal hit. IMO it should very hard to choreograph and even harder to skate to the pieces that were chosen, especially for a debuting senior.

As for Evgenia, part of the problem certainly seems to be her mixing old and new technique that she has been taught. She really tried to fix lutz edge and her whole axel technique, and these were the jumps that caused troubles. There were certain improvements after moving to Orser (axel when it's landed and +3Lo) and some drawbacks (loss of consistency) as well. But we can't take a look at alternative reality where she stays with Eteri and see whether her situation changes in any way. Also, the competition is much, much stronger than it was in her prime years so that may play a role as well. Today a layout with one lutz, no loop combo and no 3.5+ rotations will hardly give you a chance for a medal, while in 2016 and 2017 it easily brought Zhenya every gold.

It's not just the layout and ultra-c elements. With this layout there were results around 150 TSS and over in free program and 230 in total. Even without 3Lz in SP and one in free. It's how it is ececuted. E.g. Evgenia with old scores would defeat Rika with her two 3As at GP Canada this weekend. But I'm saying this only to the question of elements, not to the question of teams, because we really don't know how it would have developed, we can guess and that brings mess

 

[Arbitrary]

I'd say a spine injury is a fully justified reason to end your FS career. Absolutely justified.
I know pretty well what is the real spine injury...

 

[fabienne1996]

Tracy blaming former coach technique for Medvedeva's fall is SP is just precious... Who would expect her to accept responsibility for that?

She didn't blame it, she said zhenya in the short did go back to her old technique which just doesn't work for her anymore, and when she tries it she falls badly.

 

[Fluture]

I read it before countless times, and you and Luna alluded to it here, that Eteri wasn't careful with Evgenia's back letting her do bielman and now she lost it.
Guess it qualifies for 'pushing her too hard'. And then y'all love to quote how Tarasova said 'Evgenia wasn't allowed to do harder content, because Eteri forbade her'
So the question is, which one is it? I'm asking you as her hardcore fan, did Eteri push her too hard or did she hold her back?

Well, it is always hard to talk in retrospective. If we could go back and change things now, life would be easier. Surprisingly enough, we can‘t lol. That being said, I do not blame Eteri for not raising Zhenya‘s content in the Olympic season. I think it was a smart call, she was injured and harder content might have made her fall and injured her further.

What I do not understand, though, is why her content wasn‘t raised in the seasons leading up to the Olympics, especially knowing what Alina was capable of. Maybe they felt they didn‘t need it, that consistency + PCS would suffice. Considering how fast Zhenya‘s own PCS rose when she put out consistent performances, they should at least have figured, however... Also; when talking about BV improvements, I am not talking about +loop combos or another lutz here but more backloading. The 3F+3T in the bonus as well as dropping the +2T+2T from th 2A and putting it onto a flip instead would have done the trick. Alright, they tried it in the Olympic season, fair enough. But what about the entire 2016-17 season where she was way above anyone else and practically considered unbeatable? In my opinion, this is where they made a mistake.

As for the “pushing too hard“ I tried not to go into this because it will raise discussions that we had a lot here already. But oh well.. what I was referring to was the training regime that I feel like would not have worked anymore for an adult, already injured body, like Evgenia had it. Tursynbaeva doing biellmann spins with a known back injury while still in treatment was an example on that. I think this would have injured Zhenya even further had she stayed with Eteri. However, I put that as my own interpretations because I have no real proof for that.

I can‘t remember quoting Tarasova here but if I have (I know I talked about it in Zhenya‘s ff), it was because of another reason. I didn‘t think letting Zhenya do a 3S+3Lo during the Olympics would have been smart or even worked. She barely muscled through those 3T combos, a 3Lo combo wouldn‘t have been possible with the body, injuries and jumping technique she had. I found Tarasova‘s opinion interesting not because I necessarily agree with it but because it sort of shows that there indeed were conflicts between Zhenya and Eteri leading to that split. It was probably a factor of things that lead her to leaving and as it was such a hard thing to do, it probably took quite a few changes of opinion in between. In the end, there were reasons, though, even if we may not know them all.

This is only my opinion as a hardcore Zhenya fan, though. I can‘t speak for all of us and I‘m pretty certain we don‘t think the same.

 

[andromache]

Both. Pushed too hard in the Grand Prix season, it would have been better not to go GP Japan since her foot started to hurt earlier. Held back because 3F3T not in the bonus zone.

Going to NHK in 2017 might have been a mistake, but I think it's a reasonable one that any coach might have made. Plenty of skaters compete with injuries all the time, and it can be difficult to tell when an injury is ok to skate on and when it's not. A painful foot might be a pretty normal pain for a skater. I'm not going to blame Eteri for that.

I'm also gonna assume that the 3F-3T in the second half was not consistent enough for Eteri to allow it. Which is also reasonable.

I don't love Eteri, but I don't hate her either. I question some of the decisions they have made, but these all seem fine.

 

[nussnacker]

2. Do you think Elisabet doing Biellmans at the Shanghai Trophy was a good idea? Yes or no.

ummm... what? Are you asking me for an opinion on something I have 0 information about (just like you).
I can't make a judgement on it, because I don't know what her injury was. how it was treated, when it happened, what she should train... I guess, you have to have a medical degree and do some x-rays to say that? :scratch3: and since, i'm not a medical professional and I can't have any access to her medical information, I can't say any conclusion whether it's good or not.

 

[Mathman]

Honestly, at this moment I regret trying to answer your question.

Sorry. I apologize.

 

[el henry]

You will easily understand everything if you look at the start date of these topics on the forum. 10/27. A few hours after the FS Sasha. Or will someone argue that this is a coincidence?

No, I don’t understand. that means nothing to me. Can you explain this?

ETA: I’m sorry, I didn’t read all the posts.

People in a good mood do a little trolling? Really? :noshake:

I don’t even have the words to reply. Sigh.

 

[andromache]

ummm... what? Are you asking me for an opinion on something I have 0 information about (just like you).
I can't make a judgement on it, because I don't know what her injury was. how it was treated, when it happened, what she should train... I guess, you have to have a medical degree and do some x-rays to say that? :scratch3: and since, i'm not a medical professional and I can't have any access to her medical information, I can't say any conclusion whether it's good or not.

Everything we post here is an opinion on something we know nothing about. We can make guesses based on the little information we do have.

Your previous post seemed to suggest that you think her team made the right decision, so I was just trying to confirm that.

 

[Good Vibes Only]

Going to NHK in 2017 might have been a mistake, but I think it's a reasonable one that any coach might have made. Plenty of skaters compete with injuries all the time, and it can be difficult to tell when an injury is ok to skate on and when it's not. A painful foot might be a pretty normal pain for a skater. I'm not going to blame Eteri for that.

I also want to add to this that stress fractures don’t show up on x-rays or don’t cause extreme pain until they start to heal. Evgenia may have been skating on one at NHK, but the medical staff at Sambo might not have detected it because it didn’t show up on the x-rays or MRI. Zhenya also might have been able to skate on it because it was not healing yet. But then again I am not a doctor nor do I work at Sambo (I wish I did), so I am just guessing.

 

[Fluture]

It's not just the layout and ultra-c elements. With this layout there were results around 150 TSS and over in free program and 230 in total. Even without 3Lz in SP and one in free. It's how it is ececuted. E.g. Evgenia with old scores would defeat Rika with her two 3As at GP Canada this weekend. But I'm saying this only to the question of elements, not to the question of teams, because we really don't know how it would have developed, we can guess and that brings mess

Now this is another interesting point; thank you for making it. I wanted to address it in my first post but since it was already called a “whole novel“ I think I was right not to add it as well.

Anyway, scores. I do not think it is necessarily fair to compare the scores Zhenya got with Eteri to the ones she currently gets with Brian. Why? Well, first of all there is the thing that with Eteri Zhenya was Russian #1. Even until the Olympics she was considered at least a co-favourite with Alina. Judges overlooked certain of her issues; such as that lutz edge, which I think we all know of by now lol. This season, when she‘s barely Russian 5th, judges have started to call her lutz, URs and other problems way more frequently than they ever did with Eteri. Her lutz edge is especially obvious there. It wasn‘t better with Eteri yet hardly got e. And last season, when Russia still kind of “needed“ her, it also didn‘t get e at Worlds. Now that she‘s down in the ranking and more skaters are ahead of her, suddenly the technical specialists have better eyes? I have no proof, of course, but I do not believe that.

This is why I personally think that we should mainly focus on the skating instead of the scores. Which leads me back to the whole novel I wrote already, so no reason to repeat myself further here.

 

[nussnacker]

Everything we post here is an opinion on something we know nothing about. We can make guesses based on the little information we do have.

Your previous post seemed to suggest that you think her team made the right decision, so I was just trying to confirm that.

I think adults can make informed decisions and take responsibility for it. She's nearing 20, she has her whole family to advise her.
Her team consists not only of her coaches, but of medical professionals and her family.
If they went for it collectively, they either were allowed to do it by doctors, or they weighted all pros and cons in advance. IMO

My post should suggest: I think they know more about her condition than us and I think think they know what to do better than I do.

 

[skatingfan200]

Going to NHK in 2017 might have been a mistake, but I think it's a reasonable one that any coach might have made. Plenty of skaters compete with injuries all the time, and it can be difficult to tell when an injury is ok to skate on and when it's not. A painful foot might be a pretty normal pain for a skater. I'm not going to blame Eteri for that.

I'm also gonna assume that the 3F-3T in the second half was not consistent enough for Eteri to allow it. Which is also reasonable.

I don't love Eteri, but I don't hate her either. I question some of the decisions they have made, but these all seem fine.

But are you going to risk it if you know that the Olympics are only 4months away? Pretty sure Zhenya was by a doctor before NHK, so they knew the risk.

It´s your assumption. I think she would have been able to.

 

[eterialskater]

Oh, sorry, how could I forget that? How stupid of me...



What I find quite funny is that you managed to read all that out of my post even though I didn’t even mention anything like that.

You also managed to conveniently mentioned how Eteri girls(Trusova and Shcherbakova) are losing levels in step sequences and concluding it's their poor SS that's the reason. It's only this year that's been happening FYI. And of all people Eteri would know how important it is to hit level 4 in every spin and the step sequence so please put the faux outrage in the can by the end of the year her girls will be hitting max levels. Also where were you last year when Medvedeva's footwork was all over the place. That is quite hypocritical from a fan of a coaching team that allowed Yuna to lose levels not just on her atrociously slow step sequences but also her spins for several seasons which BTW includes all her step sequences and her joke of a layback across 2 programs in her "controversial" loss at Sochi. Goodness!

 

[Lunalovesskating]

I read it before countless times, and you and Luna alluded to it here, that Eteri wasn't careful with Evgenia's back letting her do bielman and now she lost it.
Guess it qualifies for 'pushing her too hard'. And then y'all love to quote how Tarasova said 'Evgenia wasn't allowed to do harder content, because Eteri forbade her'
So the question is, which one is it? I'm asking you as her hardcore fan, did Eteri push her too hard or did she hold her back?

Where did I mention Eteri in my post or the TAT quote you are quoting here?
My post was a reply about Alina's and Evgenia's situations not being comparable as you can see below.

Alina had no permanent back and spine injury nor a fractured foot like Evgenia had during and after the Olympics.

 

[skatingfan200]

Alina has always had better jump technique than Zhenya ever did (even at the same age), and less injuries.

Everyone will agree that Eteri has improved with every new "generation" of girls. I think Zhenya was probably the borderline case - good enough to last longer than Yulia and through the Olympics, but maybe not good enough to make it through much longer than that. I assume Zhenya herself felt that way as well, which is why she left.

Explain to me why Anna S. for example has the better jumping technique? I think it´s too early to compare, let´s see how they do in their fifth senior year.

 

[el henry]

You also managed to conveniently mentioned how Eteri girls(Trusova and Shcherbakova) are losing levels in step sequences and concluding it's their poor SS that's the reason. It's only this year that's been happening FYI. And of all people Eteri would know how important it is to hit level 4 in every spin and the step sequence so please put the faux outrage in the can by the end of the year her girls will be hitting max levels. Also where were you last year when Medvedeva's footwork was all over the place. That is quite hypocritical from a fan of a coaching team[
that allowed Yuna to lose levels not just on her atrociously slow step sequences but also her spins for several seasons which BTW includes all her step sequences and her joke of a layback across 2 programs in her "controversial" loss at Sochi. Goodness!

I would like to put a thought out there, without speaking for Fluture.

I am not a fan of a coaching teams. I could care less about coaching teams as such.

I am a fan of *skaters*. When the skater leaves a coach, I stick by the skater. I follow the skater and support the skater.

Now, I do care about the team surrounding my fav skaters. I have become a Zhenya fan because she trains with my favorite skater. But I’m here for the skaters :agree:

 

[Fluture]

You also managed to conveniently mentioned how Eteri girls(Trusova and Shcherbakova) are losing levels in step sequences and concluding it's their poor SS that's the reason. It's only this year that's been happening FYI. And of all people Eteri would know how important it is to hit level 4 in every spin and the step sequence so please put the faux outrage in the can by the end of the year her girls will be hitting max levels. Also where were you last year when Medvedeva's footwork was all over the place. That is quite hypocritical from a fan of a coaching team that allowed Yuna to lose levels not just on her atrociously slow step sequences but also her spins for several seasons which BTW includes all her step sequences and her joke of a layback across 2 programs in her "controversial" loss at Sochi. Goodness!

This post is so much outrage all at once that I don‘t know where to start. I might have to start with your last point, however. Yuna left Brian before her “controversial“ (nice!) loss in Sochi. So you might want to blame another team for her “atrociously slow“ step sequences in that competition.

As for me being a fan of Team TCC. I wasn‘t, actually, before Zhenya moved there. Frankly spoken, I‘m quite thankful because she made me watch all the amazing skaters and people such as Yuzu, Jason, Katia Kurakova or Jun there. But generally spoken, I‘m a fan of athletes. From Eteri‘s team, from team TCC and from other teams. Country and coach don‘t matter to me as much as the athletes themselves, I‘ve said that a lot already.

As for the rest: I have not shown faux outrage over Trusova or Shcherbakova losing levels on step sequences, at least not that I remember of. What I have said before was that they tend to get slower towards the end of their programs when they skate with multiple quads. They get tired, it‘s normal. But their skating gets a bit more laboured and sometimes they lose levels/miss steps because of that. I have also said that their but especially Shcherbakova‘s skating skills need work. I stand by that. I don‘t know why it was mentioned in response to my post about Evgenia, however, but okay.

As for where I was last year when Evgenia‘s step sequences were a mess? Here, on this very forum; thanks for your concern. Frankly spoken, I do not like being called a outraged hypocrite in a post that‘s full of outrage itself but nevertheless, here we go: Yes, Zhenya‘s step sequences last season were often a mess as well. Why would I deny that? She kept missing her levels when she lost concentration. Now, I suspect you only wanted to call me a hypocrite and not hear any reasons but anyway, I do believe it was because of her mental issues that were even worse last year as well as the work with Tracy only having started and her not having been used to it yet. Zhenya‘s improvements in skating skills is one of the biggest I saw and I doubt it is finished yet, so this might be reflected in her levels and scores, thankfully.

As for Anna and Sasha. I have no doubts that they will be hitting level 4 in their step sequences not only at the end of the season but in their next competition already. Knowing Eteri, she will not leave any points on the table and rightfully so!

 

[andromache]

Explain to me why Anna S. for example has the better jumping technique? I think it´s too early to compare, let´s see how they do in their fifth senior year.

With the 3A generation it's a little different...instead of 1 girl, we have 3, and they all jump differently. And yes, time will tell as to which technique works the best long-term. Out of the 3A girls, Anna S. has been with Eteri the longest, and Alena K. has been with her the shortest. In fact, Anna S. has been with Eteri longer than Zagitova has! This of course also has an impact on each girl's technique.

But it's also true that all of the 3A have surpassed the previous generations in terms of technical difficulty - all with a quad or triple axel.

 

[flanker]

Now this is another interesting point; thank you for making it. I wanted to address it in my first post but since it was already called a “whole novel“ I think I was right not to add it as well.

Anyway, scores. I do not think it is necessarily fair to compare the scores Zhenya got with Eteri to the ones she currently gets with Brian. Why? Well, first of all there is the thing that with Eteri Zhenya was Russian #1. Even until the Olympics she was considered at least a co-favourite with Alina. Judges overlooked certain of her issues; such as that lutz edge, which I think we all know of by now lol. This season, when she‘s barely Russian 5th, judges have started to call her lutz, URs and other problems way more frequently than they ever did with Eteri. Her lutz edge is especially obvious there. It wasn‘t better with Eteri yet hardly got e. And last season, when Russia still kind of “needed“ her, it also didn‘t get e at Worlds. Now that she‘s down in the ranking and more skaters are ahead of her, suddenly the technical specialists have better eyes? I have no proof, of course, but I do not believe that.

This is why I personally think that we should mainly focus on the skating instead of the scores. Which leads me back to the whole novel I wrote already, so no reason to repeat myself further here.

We can hardly agree on that her scores are lower primarily due to she is not the No. 1 in russian team. Bradie is No. 1 in US team and she receives UR and edge calls (at least outside US soil ), Alina received such calls when she was No. 1 etc. And whatever softer spot the judges had for her before, I don't think she lost it, because e.g. in PCS Zhenya definitely still receives pretty well even when fail technically (I can't see how anyone else would receive 34 PCS in friday with such skate). But this is more subjective, from your side as well as from mine, so I wouldn't take this into consideration at all.

What should be taken into consideration on the other hand is that there is no way to excuse the results the way "she is better even when inconsistent". First, being consistent is part of being good, these are not two independent mysteria. Second, all what you call improvements - speed, flow - is partially subjective, partially depending on the program and choreo. I don't see her somehow slow, not flowing etc. at times with Eteri even when it is one of the main positions of the opposite opinion. Third, this is a sport and results counts, I doubt that Zhenya would go home and say I'm so contend with how good I was no matter I was 5th. She was there to medal, not being fast but messing the SP and probably the whole chance for GPF. I'm not predicting what would happen in the alternative universe, but in this universe Zhenya is not better skater and athlete than she was, no matter whether it is fault of Orser's bad decisions, Eteri's torturing or whatever else.

Howgh