2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating | Page 591 | Golden Skate

2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

Well, it is always hard to talk in retrospective. If we could go back and change things now, life would be easier. Surprisingly enough, we can‘t lol. That being said, I do not blame Eteri for not raising Zhenya‘s content in the Olympic season. I think it was a smart call, she was injured and harder content might have made her fall and injured her further.

What I do not understand, though, is why her content wasn‘t raised in the seasons leading up to the Olympics, especially knowing what Alina was capable of. Maybe they felt they didn‘t need it, that consistency + PCS would suffice. Considering how fast Zhenya‘s own PCS rose when she put out consistent performances, they should at least have figured, however... Also; when talking about BV improvements, I am not talking about +loop combos or another lutz here but more backloading. The 3F+3T in the bonus as well as dropping the +2T+2T from th 2A and putting it onto a flip instead would have done the trick. Alright, they tried it in the Olympic season, fair enough. But what about the entire 2016-17 season where she was way above anyone else and practically considered unbeatable? In my opinion, this is where they made a mistake.

As for the “pushing too hard“ I tried not to go into this because it will raise discussions that we had a lot here already. But oh well.. what I was referring to was the training regime that I feel like would not have worked anymore for an adult, already injured body, like Evgenia had it. Tursynbaeva doing biellmann spins with a known back injury while still in treatment was an example on that. I think this would have injured Zhenya even further had she stayed with Eteri. However, I put that as my own interpretations because I have no real proof for that.

I can‘t remember quoting Tarasova here but if I have (I know I talked about it in Zhenya‘s ff), it was because of another reason. I didn‘t think letting Zhenya do a 3S+3Lo during the Olympics would have been smart or even worked. She barely muscled through those 3T combos, a 3Lo combo wouldn‘t have been possible with the body, injuries and jumping technique she had. I found Tarasova‘s opinion interesting not because I necessarily agree with it but because it sort of shows that there indeed were conflicts between Zhenya and Eteri leading to that split. It was probably a factor of things that lead her to leaving and as it was such a hard thing to do, it probably took quite a few changes of opinion in between. In the end, there were reasons, though, even if we may not know them all.

This is only my opinion as a hardcore Zhenya fan, though. I can‘t speak for all of us and I‘m pretty certain we don‘t think the same. ;)

For 2016-17, i see it like this:
- Alina was nowhere close of being a contender, and she was inconsistent. So the team made a bet on clean and consistent performances. Zhenya was, like, MILES ahead of everyone else.
- It was Zhenya's second senior year, and of course there was some (actually, HUGE) pressure to prove she was not a one time wonder (you may remember all the "she is going to get puberty and will start messing up" screams back then. Tons of people eagerly expected her to finally bomb). There is no doubt the team was aware of that, so there was a long term (Olympics) and a short term (keep skating well right here right now to prove she is not second Lipnitskaya or Sotnikova).
- Puberty. While her body didn't change much, it was likely still a bit of an issue and demanded extra work. Not sure how feasible it was to improve tech on top of that.
- To be honest, it kind of looks like her olympic programs were kind of close to the max tech she could do (she didnt manage to get above that, and she did not manage the tech upgrade in the olympic season), and chances are her team was sort of aware of it. Yes improvements could be made, but it would be at cost of consistency and even health maybe, and those improvements would be still small.

Last but not least, you people kind of forget Team Tutberidze is sort of a work in progress, and Zhenya is one of the first students. And yeah, you can see them improving with each "batch": Lipnitskaya - Medvedeva - Zagitova - 3A.
 
We can hardly agree on that her scores are lower primarily due to she is not the No. 1 in russian team. Bradie is No. 1 in US team and she receives UR and edge calls (at least outside US soil :) ), Alina received such calls when she was No. 1 etc. And whatever softer spot the judges had for her before, I don't think she lost it, because e.g. in PCS Zhenya definitely still receives pretty well even when fail technically (I can't see how anyone else would receive 34 PCS in friday with such skate). But this is more subjective, from your side as well as from mine, so I wouldn't take this into consideration at all.

I did not say that. In fact, if you had read all of my posts, I have said quite firmly that Zhenya is losing unnecessary points on spins which makes her score automatically lower. If she bombs her SP and receives low scores for it, it is also clearly not because of her no longer being No. 1. I do not think that the judges have dropped her completely, but they are definitely starting to call her more harshly than they ever did with Eteri.

What should be taken into consideration on the other hand is that there is no way to excuse the results the way "she is better even when inconsistent". First, being consistent is part of being good, these are not two independent mysteria. Second, all what you call improvements - speed, flow - is partially subjective, partially depending on the program and choreo. I don't see her somehow slow, not flowing etc. at times with Eteri even when it is one of the main positions of the opposite opinion. Third, this is a sport and results counts, I doubt that Zhenya would go home and say I'm so contend with how good I was no matter I was 5th. She was there to medal, not being fast but messing the SP and probably the whole chance for GPF. I'm not predicting what would happen in the alternative universe, but in this universe Zhenya is not better skater and athlete than she was, no matter whether it is fault of Orser's bad decisions, Eteri's torturing or whatever else.

Howgh :)

This is why I clearly said "consistency makes you a good competitor, it doesn't necessarily make you a good skater". I can give you the example of Misha Kolyada. I think you would agree with me that he is a great skater, with good skating skills and impeccable jumping technique. He is, however, quite a bad competitor as he lets nerves get to him frequently. The best case is always being a good skater as well as a good competitor, of course, as you're quite right, only being a good skater but not delivering will not get you any points. Given how much of a competitor Zhenya is and that she was seriously mad at herself for that bombed SP, I don't doubt that she's not satisfied with how she did at SCI. I mean, I'm not satisfied with that SP and I'm her fan! I was and am seriously worried because performances like that just can't happen with the competition she is facing.

As for the flow and speed across the ice, I'm sorry but this is not only subjective. Judges can see that and really, anyone can if they look close enough. Can't say it any more diplomatically than that. My main point was that Zhenya is a better skater than she was under Eteri in some areas but she's not a better competitor. Only when those two come together will she reach her full potential and get high scores. With how the other Russian girls are doing, I'm hoping she manages to do that quite soon because she will need it. I think that Zhenya's primary issue is the way in she approaches competitions. She needs to find a balance there and I hope her and her team work on that. She can't allow herself to bomb her programs anymore, especially with RusNats coming up.

Now, your ending sentence: this is your opinion. I have provided quite a lot of examples and arguments to prove you otherwise but I don't have energy to fight about it. As someone who has loved Zhenya under Eteri and loves her now, I am happy to acknowledge her improvements. If others are not, then this is of course fine, too. Everyone sees what they want to see.:agree:
 
Tracy blaming former coach technique for Medvedeva's fall is SP is just precious... Who would expect her to accept responsibility for that?
Zhenyas fall was her fault not her current coaches fault and not her former coaches fault. Zhenyas old technique and new technique criss-crossed it was bound to happen which is why Orser said it would take a year and a half or so for her to become the skater she supposed to be under him.

You are being ironic... right ?!

Yes I am 100% sure she was being ironic.

On a side note why did Serafima score only 175 in Skate Canada? Her form has been pretty good so that score was shocking. I was not expecting 205 to 215 but I was expecting 190 to 200. Zhenya even with an off short program still ended up with 209 points so if she can ever Master her short program she could be scoring in the 220s or thereabouts.
 
Zhenyas fall was her fault not her current coaches fault and not her former coaches fault. Zhenyas old technique and new technique criss-crossed it was bound to happen which is why Orser said it would take a year and a half or so for her to become the skater she supposed to be under him.



Yes I am 100% sure she was being ironic.

On a side note why did Serafima score only 175 in Skate Canada? Her form has been pretty good so that score was shocking. I was not expecting 205 to 215 but I was expecting 190 to 200. Zhenya even with an off short program still ended up with 209 points so if she can ever Master her short program she could be scoring in the 220s or thereabouts.

Her PCS was rather low. And her FS wasn’t good at all - she only did one combo I think
 
Now, your ending sentence: this is your opinion. I have provided quite a lot of examples and arguments to prove you otherwise but I don't have energy to fight about it. As someone who has loved Zhenya under Eteri and loves her now, I am happy to acknowledge her improvements. If others are not, then this is of course fine, too. Everyone sees what they want to see.:agree:

Your Lutz argument is being ignored. Statistic-wise she would not been called and than you have the 150 FS score, what was her score under Eteri.
 
But their skating gets a bit more laboured and sometimes they lose levels/miss steps because of that.

That's what I was thinking of. It's not about your particular post - it's about the mood of some posters here after certain TP decisions and their attempts to do analysis and make conclusions with the assumptions that those decisions were objective.

But they were not, therefore both analysis and decisions are wrong. Trusova did not lose levels in her short program at SC because her skating got labored due to quads. She had no quads - just 3 jumping passes with 3 triples and a double axel. No, there should be some other explanation to why after she did exactly the same steps as she did just a month ago her level dropped from 4 to 2.
 
For 2016-17, i see it like this:
- Alina was nowhere close of being a contender, and she was inconsistent. So the team made a bet on clean and consistent performances. Zhenya was, like, MILES ahead of everyone else.
- It was Zhenya's second senior year, and of course there was some (actually, HUGE) pressure to prove she was not a one time wonder (you may remember all the "she is going to get puberty and will start messing up" screams back then). There is no doubt the team was aware of that, so there was a long term (Olympics) and a short term (keep skating well right here right now to prove she is not second Lipnitskaya or Sotnikova).
- Puberty. While her body didn't change much, it was likely still a bit of an issue and demanded extra work. Not sure how feasible it was to improve tech on top of that.
- To be honest, it kind of looks like her olympic programs were kind of close to the max tech she could do (she didnt manage to get above that, and she did not manage the tech upgrade in the olympic season), and chances are her team was sort of aware of it. Yes improvements could be made, but it would be at cost of consistency and even health maybe, and those improvements would be still small.

Last but not least, you people kind of forget Team Tutberidze is sort of a work in progress, and Zhenya is one of the first students. And yeah, you can see them improving with each "batch": Lipnitskaya - Medvedeva - Zagitova - 3A.

Now those are good points, thanks for raising them. I'm sure Eteri and Zhenya will have had their reasons and we probably won't know all of them. It still surprises me that Eteri would count on PCS and consistency, though, knowing that she normally is one who would not do that and instead try to make the advantage clear and obvious. Of course, Alina was not a contender in 2016-17 but I do believe Zhenya trained with her everyday. Eteri trained her. They must have seen her potential. 2016-17 was Alina's junior Worlds win season, so there's that. I still believe that Zhenya's 2016-17 form would probably have handled the backloaded second 3-3 combo just fine but there is no way to know it so arguing about that is completely pointless. In the end it happened the way it did. I don't think and have never thought that Eteri intentionally held Zhenya back and I will never believe that either. Just clarifying that in case it is needed. When I was talking about a mistake, I meant just that. It happens and in the end no one knows what would have happened anyway. All this rehashing makes me kind of tired anyway. We have 2019-20, maybe we should move on. :agree2:

I don't think we people forget that. In fact, I remember clearly reading at least two posts by andromache acknowledging just that. Zhenya was Eteri's second big star, obviously they have improved since then.
 
Your Lutz argument is being ignored. Statistic-wise she would not been called and than you have the 150 FS score, what was her score under Eteri.
underneath eteris her free skate 9/11 got at worlds 151or a little bit more point soemthing I think she isn't that far from her normal free skate score, and I think depending on how she does at her sp it think she could get around 74/75 ?there mabye more if she does a flip loop combo, s but for that she firstly needs to w2ork out what exactly is going on within herself at that point cause it is not her technique that is the reason, right now it the problem is inside her mind and she needs to work that out first.
 
That's what I was thinking of. It's not about your particular post - it's about the mood of some posters here after certain TP decisions and their attempts to do analysis and make conclusions with the assumptions that those decisions were objective.

But they were not, therefore both analysis and decisions are wrong. Trusova did not lose levels in her short program at SC because her skating got labored due to quads. She had no quads - just 3 jumping passes with 3 triples and a double axel. No, there should be some other explanation to why after she did exactly the same steps as she did just a month ago her level dropped from 4 to 2.

Honestly, loss of levels in a step sequence can happen so quickly, we mostly won't catch it while watching. Watch Yuzu's SP from Skate Canada and tell me if you would have noticed the step where he lost the level on. I know that I wouldn't. Brian and Yuzu, however, called it out immediately in the K&C. It can be one tiny turn that isn't clear, a step that is hopped...those are nuances. What I meant by giving the quad example was that I assumed tired skaters would lose focus more quickly and skate with more shallow edges and miss their turns. In the SP Sasha must have made a mistake we didn't catch but the judges/technical panel did. You can't really tell if she performed her steps as well as she did a month ago, you can only tell that her step sequence looked the same. But this doesn't mean that it was skated at the same level. This is again just assuming but maybe they simply didn't have as much time to put on step sequences yet. If you jump 4 quads and need to practice a program with that, I suppose more focus will be put on that. But I believe Eteri and her team will look into that, losing points is not like them. Sasha's and Anna's steps will be improved/fixed/practiced until the next competition.
 
I did not say that. In fact, if you had read all of my posts, I have said quite firmly that Zhenya is losing unnecessary points on spins which makes her score automatically lower. If she bombs her SP and receives low scores for it, it is also clearly not because of her no longer being No. 1. I do not think that the judges have dropped her completely, but they are definitely starting to call her more harshly than they ever did with Eteri.



This is why I clearly said "consistency makes you a good competitor, it doesn't necessarily make you a good skater". I can give you the example of Misha Kolyada. I think you would agree with me that he is a great skater, with good skating skills and impeccable jumping technique. He is, however, quite a bad competitor as he lets nerves get to him frequently. The best case is always being a good skater as well as a good competitor, of course, as you're quite right, only being a good skater but not delivering will not get you any points. Given how much of a competitor Zhenya is and that she was seriously mad at herself for that bombed SP, I don't doubt that she's not satisfied with how she did at SCI. I mean, I'm not satisfied with that SP and I'm her fan! I was and am seriously worried because performances like that just can't happen with the competition she is facing.

As for the flow and speed across the ice, I'm sorry but this is not only subjective. Judges can see that and really, anyone can if they look close enough. Can't say it any more diplomatically than that. My main point was that Zhenya is a better skater than she was under Eteri in some areas but she's not a better competitor. Only when those two come together will she reach her full potential and get high scores. With how the other Russian girls are doing, I'm hoping she manages to do that quite soon because she will need it. I think that Zhenya's primary issue is the way in she approaches competitions. She needs to find a balance there and I hope her and her team work on that. She can't allow herself to bomb her programs anymore, especially with RusNats coming up.

Now, your ending sentence: this is your opinion. I have provided quite a lot of examples and arguments to prove you otherwise but I don't have energy to fight about it. As someone who has loved Zhenya under Eteri and loves her now, I am happy to acknowledge her improvements. If others are not, then this is of course fine, too. Everyone sees what they want to see.:agree:

I can't argue with all the novel published in instalments, as you said, even when I was blamed for having too much time yesterday :) in fact I don't. I was replying to what you have written to me. Actually, losing on levels could be another thing to speak about, but that wouldn't be fair as from competitions we've seen till now lowering the levels of elements is some new specialization of tech panels :)

Kolyada. He has a potential of being good skater, even great skater. But in the situation where he messes three or four skates on one good, I can't say he is a great skater. I wouldn't say someone is a great driver when he can't go through the turn in three of four cases. Zhenya even now has better ratio of success but still not the same she had. People were talking about whether she was forced into something or not, from my obesraviton of what we were witnessing for the year and half now she and her current team were trying to show the world "look, we were able to fix it". And I'm not blaming Orser personally, I understand that there is always big ambition either in an athlete and in a coach, Eteri definitely has it the same (though, according to the results, I can say she knows what she's doing).

Speed. It would be truly necessary to measure it at the same conditions, not in different occations and programs. But even if she skates faster, it is not a value itself. Again, it is like with the driver I've mentioned above. "yes, the driver is fast, only is having accidents sometimes". It has to be equal to skills. However, I can agree on "Zhenya is a better skater than she was under Eteri in some areas but she's not a better competitor" partially. In some way I would credit her life experience, her age, ambitions, possibility to draw from different environments the best. I'm not sure whether she is "not better competitor", definitely not worse. She has still the iron will, to which, to be honest, I would credit the successful skates she had in her new team more than to Orser.

As for the last sentence, you provided me with opinions. Not saying they are completely wrong, but didn't persuade me.

And, BTW, I was hoping that all this won't be a main topic in this thread anymore. Last season, yes, it was fresh and everybody was waiting how it comes to an end. But another tens of comments about comparing Zhenya's technique B.C. (aka before Canada) and A.O. (Anno Orser) is too much for me. I admit I'm preparing for France now :)
 
Honestly, loss of levels in a step sequence can happen so quickly, we mostly won't catch it while watching. Watch Yuzu's SP from Skate Canada and tell me if you would have noticed the step where he lost the level on. I know that I wouldn't. Brian and Yuzu, however, called it out immediately in the K&C. It can be one tiny turn that isn't clear, a step that is hopped...those are nuances. What I meant by giving the quad example was that I assumed tired skaters would lose focus more quickly and skate with more shallow edges and miss their turns. In the SP Sasha must have made a mistake we didn't catch but the judges/technical panel did. This is again just assuming but maybe they simply didn't have as much time to put on step sequences yet. If you jump 4 quads and need to practice a program with that, I suppose more focus will be put on that. But I believe Eteri and her team will look into that, losing points is not like them. Sasha's and Anna's steps will be improved/fixed/practiced until the next competition.

I have not invested time into looking at Yuzuru's StSq. I have into Trusova's. I had on my big screen side by side performances Nepela-Canada at 0.25 speed. I did not see any difference. And with everything that we know about judging in figure skating I simply don't believe that those superhuman tech people in Canada in real time saw such significant differences in her steps in Canada from Nepela that they cost full fat 2 levels - the differences that I did not see at 0.25. And those super humans did not need any reviews because level 2 appeared within a second after her sequence ended.

But my point was different. Having in mind this level 2 you already started to build theories like she got tired and could not deliver. Because you like myself do not believe that Eteri and Daniil devised for their top student level 2 steps. But the thing is it was during the short program where she apparently was not tired and where she visibly delivered the planned content.
 
I have not invested time into looking at Yuzuru's StSq. I have into Trusova's. I had on my big screen side by side performances Nepela-Canada at 0.25 speed. I did not see any difference. And with everything that we know about judging in figure skating I simply don't believe that those superhuman tech people in Canada in real time saw such significant differences in her steps in Canada from Nepela that they cost full fat 2 levels - the differences that I did not see at 0.25. And those super humans did not need any reviews because level 2 appeared within a second after her sequence ended.

But my point was different. Having in mind this level 2 you already started to build theories like she got tired and could not deliver. Because you like myself do not believe that Eteri and Daniil devised for their top student level 2 steps. But the thing is it was during the short program where she apparently was not tired and where she visibly delivered the planned content.

Are you a trained technical specialist for the ISU?
 
At WC2019 Kyarha VAN TIEL (Personal Best 139.56), who was on the 40th (last) place after SP, has StSq4 in her SP
Watch it - video.
I don't think that StSq is better than Trusova's.
So I don't believe this levels reflect any reality.
 
Sooo...Maria Talalaykina scored 61.85 at Saint Petersburg Cup Stage 2. Yay!
Well, for some reason she got 0 for her StepSeq, but her 3Lz+3T worked fine and her 3Lo was great. She's on track to Q for RusNats.
 
At WC2019 Kyarha VAN TIEL (Personal Best 139.56), who was on the 40th (last) place after SP, has StSq4 in her SP
Watch it - video.
I don't think that StSq is better than Trusova's.
So I don't believe this levels reflect any reality.

The levels aren’t about how well it was executed though. That’s the GOE. The levels are about the number of different kinds of turns and steps that must be completed. Like you can’t just look at someone doing their steps and say “well that looks really good, it should be a 4”. You have to be trained to identify these different steps and turns and from my understanding it is something like 13 different ones that are required for a 4. I can’t tell you how many times I have looked at a two sequence and thought it was awesome only for it to get a level 2.
 
At WC2019 Kyarha VAN TIEL (Personal Best 139.56), who was on the 40th (last) place after SP, has StSq4 in her SP
Watch it - video.
I don't think that StSq is better than Trusova's.
So I don't believe this levels reflect any reality.

Levels are weird. They measure difficulty, not quality. StSq levels say nothing about speed or ice coverage, so you can do a level 4 that is very slow, labored, and small (a lot of skaters sacrifice these things in order to achieve all 4 features). You can get a level 4 with relatively weak skating skills (it might just not be too pretty to watch).

I suggest looking at this document to better understand how the levels work: https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...y-and-guidelines-for-marking-goe-2019-20/file

What seems like a better StSq is not necessarily worth the most points.
 
No. Saint Petersburg Cup doesn't qualify to RusNats. It is not Russia Cup stage.

Yes I know. But it was an improvement of what we last saw of her, so I think her next Stage at Russian Cup might be good. We'll see.
 
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