2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

[Casual]

I'm reading a book about sociopaths*. I'm wondering if Gracie had one or a couple of covert ones, somewhere close enough to her in her life, which would explain her rapid deterioration and descent into mental issues. Looks textbook. She's certainly someone that those type of people would choose to target.

(*4%, i.e. 1 in 25 people, have no conscience at all, and are capable of literally anything. Most of them are never caught, and gleefully wreak havoc, manipulating, undermining and destroying the lives of those they target. Most normal people have no idea how different sociopaths are from the rest of us, or what depths of depravity they are capable of, and as a result the victims never even know what hit them.)

 

[Spiralgraph]

^^^^ That's quite a speculation and as of now there's no reason to think that a sociopath was in Gracie's life. Mental illness can happen in families that have no mental health problems or families that have just the normal problems that everybody has. Trying to imagine that a sociopath or a psychopath had victimized Gracie in some way is a road we should not go down in any way without concrete proof.

 

[fzztsimmons]

I'm reading a book about sociopaths*. I'm wondering if Gracie had one or a couple of covert ones, somewhere close enough to her in her life, which would explain her rapid deterioration and descent into mental issues. Looks textbook. She's certainly someone that those type of people would choose to target.

(*4%, i.e. 1 in 25 people, have no conscience at all, and are capable of literally anything. Most of them are never caught, and gleefully wreak havoc, manipulating, undermining and destroying the lives of those they target. Most normal people have no idea how different sociopaths are from the rest of us, or what depths of depravity they are capable of, and as a result the victims never even know what hit them.)

Sociopaths are not a thing. It is not a medical term nor a psychological one. Psychopath would be the closest term, and even that is not a valid psychological or psychiatric diagnosis. People considered as such would likely have a form of personality disorder diagnosis, however that in itself is a controversial topic and a skating forum isn't really the place for such debate.

Gracie's downward spiral is much more textbook of someone struggling with an eating disorder and depression. And she is within a sport that centers around your weight, shape, looks and where food and exercise is closely monitored. The whole system and culture in figure skating around food/weight is disordered and much more than I think is talked about. I think from interviews Gracie has given, she admits to struggling with perfectionism, which is another trait important in figure skating but also a crux of many eating disorders. Eating Disorders are also all encompassing and it is very, very easy to fall down that dark hole.

I think many people may have wanted to help Gracie and potentially tried, but until she admitted that she needed help, nothing they could do or say would help. But it seems like Gracie has been able to recognise this and is working hard to not fall into the potential traps and habits of before. It is an incredibly brave thing to do and I have everything crossed that she is able to beat her demons and acheive the goals she has set out for herself.

 

[Casual]

Sociopaths are not a thing.

Yes, they are.

As in, 4% of people have an often undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. He or she has no ability whatsoever to feel shame, guilt, or remorse, i.e., he/she is a "sociopath" ("sociopathic"), or as mental health professionals put it, has "antisocial personality disorder".

According to Dr. Martha Stout, Ph.D. - a clinical psychologist in private practice, served on the faculty in psychology in the department of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School for twenty-five years - sociopaths are a very dangerous thing that we should all know about.

These people are prone to manipulate, exploit, or violate the rights of others without any remorse. Sociopaths are often lethally dangerous to the people they target. They run the gamut from a stupid and easily caught mayhem-maker whose purpose is to "see people jump", to mass murderers, to a highly manipulative "best friend" or "relative" who undermines others in order to make them lose their livelihood or sanity.

It's a fascinating read. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Gracie was a target. She certainly fits the type (gorgeous, loved, successful... and probably easy to manipulate).

 

[fzztsimmons]

Yes, they are.

As in, 4% of people have an often undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. He or she has no ability whatsoever to feel shame, guilt, or remorse, i.e., he/she is a "sociopath" ("sociopathic"), or as mental health professionals put it, has "antisocial personality disorder".

According to Dr. Martha Stout, Ph.D. - a clinical psychologist in private practice, served on the faculty in psychology in the department of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School for twenty-five years - sociopaths are a very dangerous thing that we should all know about.

These people are prone to manipulate, exploit, or violate the rights of others without any remorse. Sociopaths are often lethally dangerous to the people they target. They run the gamut from a stupid and easily caught mayhem-maker whose purpose is to "see people jump", to mass murderers, to a highly manipulative "best friend" or "relative" who undermines others in order to make them lose their livelihood or sanity.

It's a fascinating read. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Gracie was a target. She certainly fits the type (gorgeous, loved, successful... and probably easy to manipulate).

And as a mental health professional myself, no-one would be called "a sociopath". It is not a psychological or psychiatric term featured in any diagnostic manual (DSM or ICD). It is a social buzzword made popular by the media. Yes, someone may be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder but that is what they are - an individual with a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. And the concept of "personality disorders" are in themselves controversial and questionable and as someone who works within a personality disorder service, there is a giant movement to abandon the labels altogether, although again this is not a debate for a figure skating forum.

Are there people out there who are sadistic and manipulative, yes of course.
Is there any evidence that there was someone like this in Gracie's life? Not at all.
These are unsubstantiated claims that directly contradict what Gracie herself has talked about.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Are there people out there who are sadistic and manipulative, yes of course.
Is there any evidence that there was someone like this in Gracie's life? Not at all.
These are unsubstantiated claims that directly contradict what Gracie herself has talked about.

Gracie has acknowledged the fact that she's had coaches who have had a different communication style that reflects their upbringing. What might have been acceptable 20 or 30 years ago regarding statements like losing weight are more likely to cause harm now, in part because comments on social media reinforce the negative feelings someone might have about themselves. While she's had people who have had a negative impact on her mentality, Gracie understands that, for the most part, those people didn't have bad intentions.

 

[waltzjump2]

I'm reading a book about sociopaths*. I'm wondering if Gracie had one or a couple of covert ones, somewhere close enough to her in her life, which would explain her rapid deterioration and descent into mental issues. Looks textbook. She's certainly someone that those type of people would choose to target.

(*4%, i.e. 1 in 25 people, have no conscience at all, and are capable of literally anything. Most of them are never caught, and gleefully wreak havoc, manipulating, undermining and destroying the lives of those they target. Most normal people have no idea how different sociopaths are from the rest of us, or what depths of depravity they are capable of, and as a result the victims never even know what hit them.)

She basically said that she was surrounded by people who refused to acknowledge what was going on, but I doubt there was this ‘sociopath’ you bring up. It seems to me that she struggled with mental health issues, was no given the adequate resources to deal with them at the time, and had a major downwards spiral until she finally found help. I think this ignoring or even fueling of such issues is a systemic problem in disciplines like skating (I used to dance semi-seriously and there were similar stories and a bit of a similar environment at times) where there’s this stoicism and adults actively or tacitly encouraging highly unhealthy behavior. It seems that figure skating has a culture of normalizing things that aren’t healthy/normal, and that’s a more plausible explanation than one random ‘sociopath.’

 

[moonvine]

And as a mental health professional myself, no-one would be called "a sociopath". It is not a psychological or psychiatric term featured in any diagnostic manual (DSM or ICD). It is a social buzzword made popular by the media. Yes, someone may be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder but that is what they are - an individual with a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. And the concept of "personality disorders" are in themselves controversial and questionable and as someone who works within a personality disorder service, there is a giant movement to abandon the labels altogether, although again this is not a debate for a figure skating forum.

Are there people out there who are sadistic and manipulative, yes of course.
Is there any evidence that there was someone like this in Gracie's life? Not at all.
These are unsubstantiated claims that directly contradict what Gracie herself has talked about.

I’ve been retired for awhile, but antisocial personality disorder was what was used when I was working as well. That seems an awfully high percentage as well.

I think a coach telling her she was fat was what started the whole thing and it snowballed and mushroomed from there. While not necessarily intentionally sadistic or manipulative, in my opinion this is something all coaches should receive training in from Safesport in my opinion. I have a novel to write on this later.

 

[fzztsimmons]

She basically said that she was surrounded by people who refused to acknowledge what was going on, but I doubt there was this ‘sociopath’ you bring up. It seems to me that she struggled with mental health issues, was no given the adequate resources to deal with them at the time, and had a major downwards spiral until she finally found help. I think this ignoring or even fueling of such issues is a systemic problem in disciplines like skating (I used to dance semi-seriously and there were similar stories and a bit of a similar environment at times) where there’s this stoicism and adults actively or tacitly encouraging highly unhealthy behavior. It seems that figure skating has a culture of normalizing things that aren’t healthy/normal, and that’s a more plausible explanation than one random ‘sociopath.’

:thumbsup:

 

[Casual]

It's much easier to call them "sociopaths" than "someone with an antisocial personality disorder" or "someone who does not have any conscience". That's a mouthful, don't you think?

Is there any evidence that there was someone like this in Gracie's life? Not at all.

Is there any evidence there wasn't? They usually are not detected.

I'm not insisting there was, god forbid - but I'm surprised that as a mental health professional, who knows how easy it is to manipulate someone, especially a vulnerable teenager, you'd say there definitely wasn't. How do you know? It's happened to others, it's possible it might have happened to her. Maybe not, maybe yes. I'd be very interested to know about people and influences in her life, if I was treating her - wouldn't you?

 

[Bluediamonds09]

When is Golden Spin? I thought it was always at the end of December. Is Hanna Harrell still going to pick up her season there? And wasn’t another American girl supposed to go too?

 

[frida80]

What is it about the Olympics that makes officials sell their souls? Between this, the Ciprés situation, and USAG not telling Simone or other gymnast their abuser was under investigation right before the Olympic, I’m completely disgusted how officials disregard or consent to abusive or damaging behavior for a measly medal.

 

[frida80]

When is Golden Spin? I thought it was always at the end of December. Is Hanna Harrell still going to pick up her season there? And wasn’t another American girl supposed to go too?

It’s at the beginning of December. Bradie went to the GPF and Hanna withdrew.

 

[fzztsimmons]

When is Golden Spin? I thought it was always at the end of December. Is Hanna Harrell still going to pick up her season there? And wasn’t another American girl supposed to go too?

Golden Spin has been and gone - it was the same weekend as the Grand Prix Final. No USA skaters competed in ladies.

 

[moonvine]

Golden Spin has been and gone - it was the same weekend as the Grand Prix Final. No USA skaters competed in ladies.

And there was no stream.

 

[ice coverage]

Golden Spin has been and gone - it was the same weekend as the Grand Prix Final. No USA skaters competed in ladies.

U.S. skaters did compete in junior ladies at Golden Spin :

Starr Andrews placed second.

In her international debut, Elsa Cheng placed fourth.​

---

... Are there people out there who are sadistic and manipulative, yes of course.
Is there any evidence that there was someone like this in Gracie's life? Not at all.
These are unsubstantiated claims that directly contradict what Gracie herself has talked about.

Thank you. :agree:

---

I am not pointing fingers of blame at *anyone,* but will just say that I find it odd that in speculations on GS as to who "should-have"/"could-have"/did notice and/or act upon signals of Gracie's struggles, her own family rarely gets mentioned. (Although mentions of coaches and USFS officials are numerous.)
AFAIK, in California, Gracie lived with her mother and sister. Until Carly's retirement in summer 2016, the twins also were training mates.

 

[Casual]

What is it about the Olympics that makes officials sell their souls? Between this, the Ciprés situation, and USAG not telling Simone or other gymnast their abuser was under investigation right before the Olympic, I’m completely disgusted how officials disregard or consent to abusive or damaging behavior for a measly medal.

Officials, parents, fans... Yup. It's like a shiny medal blinds people.

 

[el henry]

Just a point about Golden Spin this year: US skaters did compete in the junior ladies division, including Starr Andrews and I believe Elsa Cheng.

There was in fact a broadcast, but it appears to have been limited to Croatian TV. There are YouTube channels which have videos of some of the skates from both the television broadcast and from fan cams.

ETA: and now I see that Ice Coverage mentioned the junior ladies first, reading too fast will do that

 

[Casual]

I’ve been retired for awhile, but antisocial personality disorder was what was used when I was working as well. That seems an awfully high percentage as well.

I think a coach telling her she was fat was what started the whole thing and it snowballed and mushroomed from there. While not necessarily intentionally sadistic or manipulative, in my opinion this is something all coaches should receive training in from Safesport in my opinion. I have a novel to write on this later.

It would make for a great novel, actually.

We'll never know if it was something she came up with herself (it's entirely possible to be self-destructive all by her lonesome), or if a coach said something stupid by accident which she took to heart, or if a peer (or whomever) manipulated her on purpose out of envy, etc.

These things happen apparently more often than we think (I was shocked at 4% statistic), and IF there was some malice it would be aimed at precisely someone like her.

Whatever happened. Others could learn from it, too.

 

[Casual]

U.S. skaters did compete in junior ladies at Golden Spin :

Starr Andrews placed second.

In her international debut, Elsa Cheng placed fourth.​

Good for Starr! I like her a lot. :thumbsup: (I don't know Elsa, sorry. Good for her, too.)