Yuzuru Hanyu Will Compete With His 2017-18 SP & FS At 4CC

[TontoK]

Wow, he must be the most unfortunate figure skater ever in history. The world is clearly out to get him.

Also, his free program choreographer has been based in the USA for at least a decade. Check your facts.

Yes, I agree.

Imagine how difficult it must be for Yuzu to toil in obscurity for years, getting no recognition for his work or any acclaim for his efforts.

I know, like me, you're joking. But an unfortunate mindset can come into play when people become too attached to skaters that they become fans of the individual as opposed to fans of the sport.

 

[monidi]

In general, it's fine if some fans feel disappointed to not see "something new" every time. People are different and everybody prefers different things. And also everybody has right to express their opinion. But honestly, why so much unconstructive critisism and "he is lazy" and "ISU should ban repeating" before you actually see him skate or read his interviews?

His FS layout will have a lot of major changes. And we already could see today that his SP has some small details changed, too. He also explained his reasons in great details. And it's crazy but he was actually considering for a moment to do two completely new programs but realized it was not possible at this point of the season.

Hanyu
FS 2008-9 to 2009-10 Rhapsody Paganini 10 times
SP 2012-3 to 2013-4 Parisienne Walkways 15 times
SP 2014-5 to 2015-6 to 2017-8 to 2018-9 Ballade Chopin 18 times
FS 2015-6 to 2017-8 to 2018-9 Seimei 12 times
FS 2018-9 to 2019-20 Otoñal 7 times
SP 2018-9 to 2019-20 Origin 7 times

Well at least with Yuzuru you posted a lot of incorrect numbers:
Ballade Chopin: 6 + 6 +3 + 4CC2020 & W2020 = 17
Seimei 6+ 3 + 4CC2020 & W2020 = 11
Otonal 4 + 5 = 9
Origin 4 + 5 = 9

 

[4everchan]

again.. it's not the number of times that matters... i mean Liza, the year she won worlds competed in about every single competition ever... that must have brought up the number of times she performed her programs... the issue to me, is when a skater drags a program more than 2 seasons.... 2 seasons is really a limit....

it is about long term memory.... the longer a program lives on... in this case Yuzu's Chopin is VERY old now... i mean 2014-15.... that's far far away... it just makes it boring as it is happening regularly over and over the years... very different from seeing the same program 20 times but in the span of one season or two

 

[1111bm]

Why does the criticism have to be constructive?

This is a message board, people are just expressing their thoughts and feelings, and it's an exchange of opinions. We're not Yuzu's coaching team or family members giving him advice or complaints that can or will affect his decisions and how he proceeds. So we're not goal-oriented, is what I mean, and if someone just feels like venting and expressing their disappointment or annoyance, that should also be acceptable.
Of course, for the sake of a good discussion, the criticism should be descriptive and specific, i.e. go beyond "this is stupid" or "I don't like this"
(tell us why or what exactly about it you don't like).

 

[TallyT]

But an unfortunate mindset can come into play when people become too attached to skaters that they become fans of the individual as opposed to fans of the sport.

Okay, I'll bite, because I am finally sick to the back teeth of this sort of thing.

So. Flippin. What. (and yes, that was bowdlerised and yes, you know what I meant).

Or do you also like to sneer about the millions of folk worldwide who follow one football team? One tennis player? One musician? One actor? One writer? One anyone?

I used the word 'pecksniffian' earlier in this thread and this exemplifies it. People can choose to take anything they damn well want from a sport and if other parts of it - if other competitors in it - don't move them, that's not on the fan, nor on the sport. Just as it is not on a ladies' skating fan if they get nothing from or give a toss about men or ice dance. Or a Chan or Chen fan who gets nothing from Yuzuru. It's recreation, and you don't get to dictate or get toffee-nosed about how other people like their recreation. And if they choose to follow one - or two - or a hundred - footballers - or skiers - or golfers - or actors - or musicians - or skaters, because others don't do for them what theirs do, that is a perfectly valid way to enjoy what they do.

Capice?

There is nothing wrong with being a bigger fan of one skater than of the sport. It's sport, by its nature ephemeral.

And also, there is probably not a single poster in the entire history of this or any other sporting board who has not thought their particular darlings were hard done by at one time for reasons that seemed good to them and not to others. Yuzuru has had a rough, injury-ridden, pressure-cooker two years, he's doing this for reasons that he believes in, fans worldwide love him for his brilliance and bravery and are therefore protective of him: others resent the fact that he gets that level of love and others don't, or just don't see what the fuss is.

 

[1111bm]

I don't understand why everyone keeps summing up how many times in total each program was performed (also, does it really matter in the end, if it was 17 vs. 18 or 11 vs. 12 times...? ).

A program repeat still equals no new material from a skater in a given season. No matter how often it was ultimately skated.
(sure, if it was just one outing, go ahead and repeat... but if it's been several competitions over the course of a season, be it 3, 4 or 5... then it feels like a whole season and makes me crave something new, no matter the exact number)

Or arguing that changes in the jump layout, a new music cut or little choreographic or transitional differences are somehow making it a different program and reusing it more acceptable.
(wow, if layout changes count as a 'new program', then I know a certain skater who basically has a 'new' program at each competition )

All of this doesn't change the fact that it's still the same piece of music, the same style being portrayed, the same mood, the same theme... so what if Yuzu adds a few new gestures to Seimei? I'm sure he's not gonna bust out the can-can during its performance...

I also don't understand why it matters or somehow exculpates his decision, when Yuzu has valid, understandable reasons to go back to these old programs. I'm sure he has, why else would he be doing it? Doesn't change the fact that many people will be unhappy with his decision or feel that it still reflects badly on him.

For me personally it just reads like a weakness, clinging to two of his most successful programs like that. It's like admitting that he needs the comfort of past accomplishements and/or can't make other programs work for him (not even ones that feel so similar to his classics and that he's been trying to make work for 1,5 seasons already).

I'm not saying that I believe he's actually incapable of skating new programs successfully, I certainly don't. And if he ends up slaying with his oldies, no one's gonna care anymore about his recycling, anyway.
I'm just talking about appearances and how it's coming across, and I think this is a big part of what's bothering me about it (besides the part where I'm simply disappointed with his lack of diversity).

 

[rabidline]

Uno
SP 2017-8 to 2018-9 Winter 11 times
FS 2015-6 to 2017-8 Turandot 19 times

Seriously? Seriously. Stop equating Uno's number of competitions = Uno's number of skates.

He didn't do Turandot 1.0 in GP France 2015-2016 because of the Paris attacks that canceled the competition and he didn't do Turandot 2.0 in Olys Team Event because Keiji Tanaka was assigned for the FS portion of that competition.

He also didn't do Winter at Japan Open because that was a FS competition only.

I have my own opinion that I won't post here about the sudden influx of fans defending recycling by mentioning how many times some programs have been skated in a season or two, as well as the apparent refusal to acknowledge that Shoma's two Turandots are different programs with completely different costumes that don't look similar, different music cuts, different tenors singing Nessun Dorma. At least do some research or at least read the whole thread before posting. Then again, I don't think anyone mentioning Shoma and Turandot here cared enough about it aside from his high number of competitions being convenient enough to bring up to justify recycling a program that hadn't been skated as much as Shoma skated Turandot.

Turandot 1.0 (8 times): US Classic, JO, Skate America, GPF, JNats, 4CC, Worlds, TCC.

Turandot 2.0 (9 times): Lombardia, JO, Skate Canada, IDF, GPF, JNats, 4CC, Olympics Individual, Worlds.

That brings it to 17 instead of 19. Please give me these 2 (two) additional competitive Turandots from Shoma if you can find them, I don't like missing his skates. Also after the high number of complaints at Shoma during the Olympics Season about Turandot 2.0 having a worse music cut and composition compared to Turandot 1.0, they are 2 (two) different programs.

 

[fallingsk8er]

I’m glad he’s ditching those programs. They weren’t that impressive at the GPF or nationals. He’s always amazing on the ice and as long as he skates clean and with passion, he will be just fine at worlds. And that’s what matters.

 

[TontoK]

Okay, I'll bite, because I am finally sick to the back teeth of this sort of thing.

So. Flippin. What. (and yes, that was bowdlerised and yes, you know what I meant).

Or do you also like to sneer about the millions of folk worldwide who follow one football team? One tennis player? One musician? One actor? One writer? One anyone?

I used the word 'pecksniffian' earlier in this thread and this exemplifies it. People can choose to take anything they damn well want from a sport and if other parts of it - if other competitors in it - don't move them, that's not on the fan, nor on the sport. Just as it is not on a ladies' skating fan if they get nothing from or give a toss about men or ice dance. Or a Chan or Chen fan who gets nothing from Yuzuru. It's recreation, and you don't get to dictate or get toffee-nosed about how other people like their recreation. And if they choose to follow one - or two - or a hundred - footballers - or skiers - or golfers - or actors - or musicians - or skaters, because others don't do for them what theirs do, that is a perfectly valid way to enjoy what they do.

Capice?

There is nothing wrong with being a bigger fan of one skater than of the sport. It's sport, by its nature ephemeral.

And also, there is probably not a single poster in the entire history of this or any other sporting board who has not thought their particular darlings were hard done by at one time for reasons that seemed good to them and not to others. Yuzuru has had a rough, injury-ridden, pressure-cooker two years, he's doing this for reasons that he believes in, fans worldwide love him for his brilliance and bravery and are therefore protective of him: others resent the fact that he gets that level of love and others don't, or just don't see what the fuss is.

My goodness, I certainly didn't intend to strike the nerve I obviously have.

But, in any event... I'll try to address the meat of it.

What I meant is that we often see that when devotion is lavished on an individual skater, those fans can sometimes defend their favorites at all cost and be blind to things that are clearer to a more detached observer.

In sport, all sport, the torch gets passed. Yuzu's hold on the torch is more tenuous than it's been in a while. I don't know if he'll hand it off this year, and I don't know who he'll hand it off to. I don't know if the torch will be passed gracefully in retirement, or if someone is going to rip it from him on competitive ice. But he's going to pass the torch eventually. He has to, it's the nature of the sport.

I don't sneer at anyone who exhibits blind devotion to only one skater... I sincerely try not to sneer at anyone... but I do feel badly for them. I think they're closing themselves off to the possibility of new excitements, new performers, new directions in the sport.

My first loves in men's skating were John Curry and Toller Cranston, but if I'd acted as if they were the end-all, be-all of the sport, I'd have missed out on a pretty thrilling ride for the following 40+ years and counting. Instead, I let them introduce me to something new in my life, something completely unknown to a young boy in my time and place. I'm forever grateful for them, but also glad for the wisdom to not let my appreciation for them divert me from enjoying Robin Cousins, Scott Hamilton, the Brians, Yagudin and Plushenko... and, yes, Yuzu... and, yes, Nathan Chen. All of these skaters built on the technical and artistic foundations of their predecessors, but still found a way to contribute something new. I'd have missed all that I'd walked away from the sport when my first loves did.

I certainly didn't mean to hurt your feelings. By all means, take from the sport what you like. If you're ride-or-die for Yuzu, I hope you enjoy it, and perhaps you'll find another reason to love the sport once he's not in it. I hope so, it's meant a lot to me and I wish that for all fans.

 

[dalenofff]

You think you can beat me -- beat Seimei!!![/QUOTE]

But Seimei was beaten.. the only reason he won was because Chen mess up the SP so bad he was 17th.. LOL

 

[lzxnl]

Well, you're also comparing a Hanyu that was skating on painkillers to a Chen that was injury-free. Yuzuru only had two types of quads back then, which meant 4 quads and 1 triple axel, vs 6 quads and 1 triple axel. Now it'd be 4/5 quads and 2 triple axels vs 4/5 quads and 1/2 triple axels.

 

[oatmella]

Nathan also beat Yuzu and Seimei at Rostelecom Cup 2017. The program that he could possibly find intimidating is Chopin. But the Olympics seem like a long time ago - so much has happened since then.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I’m sure the topic has been talked to death by now, but I’ll weigh in anyway.

I totally understand why people would be fed up with recycling programs in general, and specifically from Yuzu since he’s done it before. However, in this case I honestly don’t think he felt he had a choice. Origin has not been working for him. Whatever your thoughts on the program, its choreography or composition, he’s never been at his best while skating it and he seems to be visibly drained by it. If he feels the same way about Otoñal, I’d have to disagree with him because I think it’s one of his best SPs ever. But he wants to win and there is no way he would change his programs mid-season to anything other than what’s absolutely familiar - something where the muscle memory is probably ingrained into his very DNA at this point.

Whatever else people think of Yuzu and recycling, he isn’t stupid. Changing music mid-season is already super risky. He wouldn’t jeopardize his chances by choosing LGC (which he never skated perfectly) or something new (which would be insane). So it kind of had to be Chopin & Seimei.

I’m gonna miss Otoñal tho, not gonna lie.

I wouldn’t say he hasn’t had success. He won both Grand Prix events and posted a personal best under the new system. He also landed 5 quads for the first time with it.

If the measure of success with a program is winning every competition then fine... but even with Seimei he wouldn’t have won the GPF.

If his rationale was to compete a program he skated perfectly then why go back to Chopin when he’s had perfect SPs?

Last season would have made sense to switch his FS but this year he’s had good results. And popping/falling on the 3A costing him points at the GPF or a title at Nats was because of the jumps not the program.

 

[DSQ]

Looking at what people having been bringing up here recently I’ll give my 2c.

When it comes to repeating a program I think where a skater skates it can make all the difference. For example some skaters are lucky if the skate in one CS a season along side a couple of senior internationals. So they might skate it the same eight or so times a top skater like Samerin might (two CS’s, two GP, GPF, Nationals Euros and Worlds) but we’ll have access to perhaps only the CS and Nationals. Repeating in that case is prudent because they save some money and get to perfect it. We’re not all tried of it by seeing it at every major competition.

I think the second reason for changing is if a program is particularly celebrated in a season (like last season I’d say Kihira’s Beautiful Storm was) then it’s best to let it go before it becomes to attached to you and fans (and sometimes judges) become unable to accept any other style.

Looking at Hanyu’s reasons for repeating they are admirable (“I’m skating for myself”) however it doesn’t change how I felt when I heard the news - disappointed. Despite what people think I very much like Hanyu and there are so many different and moody pieces of music I daydream him doing.

I’m excited for 4CC though. It’s a shame, as I said before, Uno, Chen and Zhou aren’t there.

 

[alexaa]

Nathan also beat Yuzu and Seimei at Rostelecom Cup 2017. The program that he could possibly find intimidating is Chopin. But the Olympics seem like a long time ago - so much has happened since then.

Nathan lost FP to Seimei at Rostelecom 2017. Nemesis won Chopin Ballad by more than 5 points, which helped Nathan to win the competition.

Speaking of injury free, Nathan also suffered injury during Olympics which prevented him training 4lz, which was the reason there was originally no 4lz planned. Until this date, Raf still attributed Nathan’s disastrous SP at Olympics to Nathan’s decision to add 4lz on the day of SP. He had avoided 4lz after Skate America 2017. Nathan just didn’t like to mention injuries. It is Raf revealed the injury during his interview, and there were pictures posted by a doctor or therapist’s office after the Olympics

For those expecting 100 percent Yuzuru vs 100 percent Nathan, I am not sure if you can count Nathan as 100 percent after he went to school. He is a “part time skater” as the Eurosport commentator referred to him, and trains mostly by himself. He didn’t have any training with Raf between nationals and worlds 2019. You probably have to wait for him to quit school and trains with Raf full time before you can expect a 100 percent Nathan

 

[hisori]

Yuzuru is one of the few skaters who can elevate any program he skates, turn it into a masterpiece. That's why it's disappointing to see him not trying anything new just for the sake of completing a medal collection.

 

[tafattsbarn]

I'm convinced some people refuse to even read or listen to Yuzuru's interviews about this (or about anything for that matter) as the way people talk about him and this subject clearly indicate they don't have the slightest grasp of the type of person he is and what he values in this sport nor how he navigates it.

 

[wintersmith]

I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if someone already posted a link to Yuzus interview about the program change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3VrUOzrFz0&t=0s

He basically says that the reason for the change is that he felt something wasn't quite right about his current programs, and when he skated to Seimei at Medalist on Ice he felt like "himself". He considered finding new music, but there was no time. More than winning, he wants to find his own skating, and furthermore through these programs, and this competition, he can discover if he can become even stronger.

I watched Medalist on Ice and you can see the smile on his face, so I'm actually not surprised about this at all.

 

[monidi]

Why does the criticism have to be constructive?
This is a message board, people are just expressing their thoughts and feelings, and it's an exchange of opinions. We're not Yuzu's coaching team or family members giving him advice or complaints that can or will affect his decisions and how he proceeds. So we're not goal-oriented, is what I mean, and if someone just feels like venting and expressing their disappointment or annoyance, that should also be acceptable.
Of course, for the sake of a good discussion, the criticism should be descriptive and specific, i.e. go beyond "this is stupid" or "I don't like this"
(tell us why or what exactly about it you don't like).

Simply because I sometimes see a little difference between unconstructive criticism and hate. Again, I repeat, being disappointed is OK for whatever reason and it's OK to discuss it, including 'i find it boring because...'. But posting passive aggressive comments about him or his fans is not quite it.

I don't understand why everyone keeps summing up how many times in total each program was performed (also, does it really matter in the end, if it was 17 vs. 18 or 11 vs. 12 times...? ).

Sure, it doesn't matter much. But it's always better not to post incorrect information.

Or arguing that changes in the jump layout, a new music cut or little choreographic or transitional differences are somehow making it a different program and reusing it more acceptable.
(wow, if layout changes count as a 'new program', then I know a certain skater who basically has a 'new' program at each competition )

All of this doesn't change the fact that it's still the same piece of music, the same style being portrayed, the same mood, the same theme... so what if Yuzu adds a few new gestures to Seimei? I'm sure he's not gonna bust out the can-can during its performance...

I think this really depends on what you are looking for in figure skating in general. Everybody can enjoy and absorb performances on different levels. I think they are all valid. Some love athletic side of it. Some love artistic side of it. Some want to have fun and watch new and creative moves. Some might just watch it to kill their time while e.g. cooking.
Personally, what I love about skating and specifically about Yuzuru the most, is watching how he uses music, how he interprets the smallest nuances. But these are things that obviously need time to develop. These are things that come from within him, it's not because his choreographers told him 'now look there, smile and do this or that hand movement'. It comes from his heart and soul and it feels natural. Yes, the music and character stays the same, but Yuzuru as a person grows each season, and there is always something little that gives me chills even if the programs remain same. I find watching him doing this inspiring as I'm a dancer myself.
But again, I understand if not everyone cherishes these details but just express it without offending anyone.

I also don't understand why it matters or somehow exculpates his decision, when Yuzu has valid, understandable reasons to go back to these old programs. I'm sure he has, why else would he be doing it? Doesn't change the fact that many people will be unhappy with his decision or feel that it still reflects badly on him.

People can be unhappy but isn't it better to understand his reasons first? He explained it in great details.

For me personally it just reads like a weakness, clinging to two of his most successful programs like that. It's like admitting that he needs the comfort of past accomplishements and/or can't make other programs work for him (not even ones that feel so similar to his classics and that he's been trying to make work for 1,5 seasons already).

But people expect him to bring back 4Lz, do 5 quads, land 4A, have new programs and do his usual magic. Last 2 years he spend more time off the ice than on the ice. The fact that he is still competing and fighting and always coming back doesn't seem like a weakness to me. Admitting his tribute programs didn't work took a lot of courage. And the decision to bring back those two iconic programs created for him huge pressure:
1. do it better than last time
2. do not ruin them by bad performance

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Nathan also beat Yuzu and Seimei at Rostelecom Cup 2017. The program that he could possibly find intimidating is Chopin. But the Olympics seem like a long time ago - so much has happened since then.

OMG I remember that - the girl in the Seimei cosplay costume.

Until Hanyu upgrades his SP jump content, no SP of his will ever be intimidating for Chen.

Chen isn’t concerned about Hanyu’s program - he’s concerned about jump content. When Hanyu toyed with the 4A at the GPF practice that motivated Chen to add another quad - and that earned him a record FS/total score (under any system).

Chen is clearly so far beyond in maturity compared to the Olympics too, having won his last 11 competitions and clearly taking a measured thoughtful approach to competing. At this point what’s helping him win is his planning moreso than any opponent’s programs.