Yuzuru Hanyu Will Compete With His 2017-18 SP & FS At 4CC

[Mentis]

ETA: and btw, I believe you were the one who brought up scores in the first place, to prove how dominant Yuzuru still is. Now, only one post later, you suddenly argue against the significance of scores??

I'm confused.
When or where did I say that Yuzuru was dominating?

If you could re-read, you'd see that I claimed that he wasn't being utterly dominated.
Logically, the bar is much higher for one compared to the other.

"Not being dominated" is a such a low bar that I think margin doesn't matter because the very fact that he holds the world record at all is sufficient to show he hasn't been completely dominated. Note that nowhere in that statement does it imply he is dominating.

"Dominating" is an extremely high standard. There are many times where there is no undisputed dominating skater in a discipline, for example I'd argue the ladies field right now.
It makes sense that if numbers are used to justify that claim, then they would be scrutinized to see if they really are sufficient proof.

Let's put it this way. Chen holding the FS world record score is perfectly sufficient as proof that he isn't being dominated by Hanyu. But I wouldn't agree that those numbers alone prove that he is dominating Hanyu.

 

[1111bm]

I'm confused.
When or where did I say that Yuzuru was dominating?

I didn't write that you said this, as in used these exact words. I wrote that you used his record SP score as proof that he is still dominant as a skater.
Since to me not yet being surpassed implied still dominant, based on your post.

Because, if you could re-read, you'd see that you also said: '...if anyone is as utterly dominant as certain fans claim...' when in fact, no one had used the word 'dominant' up to that point and you were the first one to introduce it. Meanwhile other posters had merely used the words 'technically surpassed' (which btw, I would argue doesn't even have to refer to the whole score, it could refer to the TES only or even the mere base value, if someone chooses to look at the naked numbers sans execution).

So you'll have to forgive me for getting the wrong impression from your post, that you seemed to equate not being surpassed with dominant, which prompted me to use that term in the first place.

 

[4everchan]

Even if Hanyu loses to Chen at Worlds, Hanyu is still The Artist.

an artist doesn't paint the same painting over and over again...
an artist doesn't sing the same song over and over again...

Yuzuru is a very meticulous athlete, reaching for perfection and high scores rather than creativity. Considering figure skating is a sport, there is nothing wrong with his mindset but it is NOT an artistic mindset.....

 

[Interspectator]

an artist doesn't paint the same painting over and over again...
an artist doesn't sing the same song over and over again...

Yuzuru is a very meticulous athlete, reaching for perfection and high scores rather than creativity. Considering figure skating is a sport, there is nothing wrong with his mindset but it is NOT an artistic mindset.....

Actually, --both of those things are not really true?

Monet's paintings of waterlilies, and haystacks just to name the first thing that comes to mind (and my favorite), -but there are lots more instances.
And countless musicians repeated performances of the same music over the years of their career

Repetition of a subject to achieve perfection is part of an artistic pursuit. Very much ingrained in the artistic mindset. It's not the ONLY way to be artistic but by no means is it uncommon.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Even if Hanyu loses to Chen at Worlds, Hanyu is still The Artist.

Uh, actually that would be Denis Ten (RIP).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually, --both of those things are not really true?

Monet's paintings of waterlilies, and haystacks just to name the first thing that comes to mind (and my favorite), -but there are lots more instances.
And countless musicians repeated performances of the same music over the years of their career

Repetition of a subject to achieve perfection is part of an artistic pursuit. Very much ingrained in the artistic mindset. It's not the ONLY way to be artistic but by no means is it uncommon.

So then why don’t more figure skaters keep the same programs the expanse of their career, and keep trying to perfect it?

 

[Interspectator]

So then why don’t more figure skaters keep the same programs the expanse of their career, and keep trying to perfect it?

That's the skaters choice. Some skaters do retain their programs for 3-4 seasons over the course of their careers. Michelle Kwan? Brian Joubert?
I am not saying that there is a 'right' or 'wrong' when considering recycling music, but in as far as artistry is concerned, this is a well known path to artistic development and maturation across various disciplines, of which there are many to choose from.

No doubt the sporting aspect is also considered as well as the myraid of other aspects a skater needs balance when making their choice. It's valid to say 'I'm tired of seeing this program again, please do something else' -the audience or spectators opinion of a performance or art is part of the experience, but the creator or performer must make the decision and chart the path forward themselves. Whether it is to branch out into as yet un-tried subjects and styles or to reiterate the same subject or style so as to grow within that specialty.

I will say though, that with younger artists or beginner artists, the general wisdom is to branch out as much as possible and experience and try as many things as possible, and for more seasoned artists there is a move towards specialization and deeper connection with chosen subjects, styles, materials etc. In general, but not always.

from this point of view, it is not inherently a superior or inferior artistic choice to repeat a program. If the skater makes the considerations of sport, art, health, time, inspiration (and money too for those who struggle with support) and decides that this is the best way forward, for them it IS the best way.
The audience in general prefers novelty. I know I do. But I do not think that novelty will automatically be better for the skater. Just more interesting for me.

 

[tafattsbarn]

[...]

Stop projecting. Yuzuru has adressed many of the things you bring up in your post. It feels a bit like you're stuck in 2013.

Actually, --both of those things are not really true?

Monet's paintings of waterlilies, and haystacks just to name the first thing that comes to mind (and my favorite), -but there are lots more instances.
And countless musicians repeated performances of the same music over the years of their career

Repetition of a subject to achieve perfection is part of an artistic pursuit. Very much ingrained in the artistic mindset. It's not the ONLY way to be artistic but by no means is it uncommon.

I think Katsushika Hokusai's The great wave of Kanagawa is another spectacular example of this! What if he had stopped at the initial iterations of it and not continued to develop the concept? Would it still be called a masterpiece?

 

[4everchan]

Actually, --both of those things are not really true?

Monet's paintings of waterlilies, and haystacks just to name the first thing that comes to mind (and my favorite), -but there are lots more instances.
And countless musicians repeated performances of the same music over the years of their career

Repetition of a subject to achieve perfection is part of an artistic pursuit. Very much ingrained in the artistic mindset. It's not the ONLY way to be artistic but by no means is it uncommon.

Monet's paintings are different many are studies to reach new standards. They are not the same painting over and over. Go to Orsay. You will see how monet is not a one trick wonder. For performing artists : of course they will perform a song or an album many times but their public is changing. That is called touring. Figure skaters who do Stars on Ice or shows, that's the equivalent... Active competitors though do not perform in one venue at a time.. they perform for the entire world to see... so it does get boring and repetitive when a skater uses the same material year after year... In yuzu's case only the exécution is perfected. Not the concept. His chopin looks pretty much the same every time he performs it, even if he changes a couple turns and steps.. or the jump layout.. that is not creativity... really... jump layouts are changed all the time and sometimes on the spot to accommodate ankles or knees or confidence issues... etc...

 

[surimi]

Recycling means one is not a 'true' artist? Subjective, not a universal truth.
Well, Skateluvr, using Yuzuru's quirkiness as an example of how old fashioned he is, must be a new low. Apparently someone's short of better arguments. Oh and I didn't know the number of thumbs up makes your post somehow more valid. An opinion approved by fellow posters who have bones to pick with Yuzuru and/or don't like him, is still no more than an opinion. IDK why you'd bring likes into the equation at all.
Yuzuru doesn't owe anyone anything. I hope he continues next year, and if he does so with two brand new programs, I'll be even happier.

 

[Interspectator]

Monet's paintings are different many are studies to reach new standards. They are not the same painting over and over. Go to Orsay. You will see how monet is not a one trick wonder. For performing artists : of course they will peform a song or an album many times but their public is changing. That is called touring. It is about showing their creative work all over the world to make a living. However, after a tour, they do step back and prepare new material. In yuzu's case inly the exécution is oerfected. Nkt the concept. His chopin looks pretty much the same every time he performs it.

Neither is Yuzu's Chopin exactly the same program. He changes the choreography, the costume and the placement of the elements from season to season and competition to competition. Yuzu's SP reaches new standards (or judges scores) when he further perfects it. This is not a perfect match to a painting of course, because there is the sport aspect as well. But as far is the artistry is concerned, he makes progress in the way he has chosen. The emphasis and mood also changes. However, also, like musicians and artists and other performers, it's not the only program he has. Otonal, Chopin, Let's go Crazy, Parisienne Walkways, Etude and White Ledgend are all parts of his Senior SP repertoire Yuzu is also not a one trick wonder.

For a little look at different kinds of repitition in visual art, see here https://www.widewalls.ch/repetition-in-art-artists-photography/

 

[4everchan]

Neither is Yuzu's Chopin exactly the same program. He changes the choreography, the costume and the placement of the elements from season to season and competition to competition. Yuzu's SP reaches new standards (or judges scores) when he further perfects it. This is not a perfect match to a painting of course, because there is the sport aspect as well. But as far is the artistry is concerned, he makes progress in the way he has chosen. However, also, like the musicians and artists and other performers, it's not the only program he has. Otonal, Chopin, Let's go Crazy, Parisienne Walkways, Etude and White Ledgend are all parts of his Senior SP repertoire Yuzu is also not a one trick wonder.

I personally think of other skaters when creativity and artistry are mentioned. Yuzu has plenty of qualities but creativity is definitely not in my opinion his forte. Ymmv

 

[Interspectator]

We can have vast differences of opinion on what constitutes art and creativity in this wide world. :agree:
That is what makes it interesting- and lets a thread like this stretch to 9 pages.

 

[DSQ]

I think this topic is dead now. Let’s not be uncivil with each other.

 

[eppen]

I apologize for the mistakes in the repeat program calculations - but I did write I did not check them. And actually it turned out to be a lot more work than what I expected because so many skaters repeated programs. Despite mistakes in some cases, the general quantities remain the same...

I readily confess, that I have always had a black hole when it comes to Hanyu - have seen him skate live some of his greatest achievements (like Barcelona 2015, Helsinki 2017; lesser competitions Finlandia Trophy 2012 and GPF 2016 in Marseilles), but have never connected with his performances in any way. I remember Helsinki vaguely, most vividly the mistake in the combo and then the FS is like an overtly long and boring bit of sausage... And it is the programs that in some way touch me that I remember - even skaters that I don't usually like can do that sometimes.

This Chopin went back to its 2015 layout apart from slight changes in the step sequence that are probably due to changes in the rules (what is needed for a level 3-4 step sequence) rather than anything else.

I watched the 2015 GPF and this side by side and then later back to back, but could not really see any differences in the artistic side - the technical execution is at top level in both. It was as if nothing had really happened in the almost 4 full seasons in between. The arm movements were maybe better in 2015 IMO, a tad more control compared to yesterday.

I agree with 4everchan in his opinion that Hanyu is a great technician and able to execute to near perfection, but I fail to see his artistic development in this occasion as well as generally. He is choosing very similar pieces of music (amazingly enough even Prince was used just about the same way his SP's always work), the emotional arc and interpretation inside the programs gets repeated time and again.

Also, changing the order of elements is not really a question of artistic choice, is it? For example, the previous Chopin was backloaded because there were more points to get from that than from keeping the 2015-6 layout. Now there is no motivation to do that (and seemingly having the combo in the second part to max out TES points does not work for him for what ever reason).

Comparing repetition of competition programs to works of art or music or dance seems a little funny to me, because in those it is the interpretation that changes. Monet's bridges and waterlilies looked different depending on light and time of year, he might have used different techniques in different paintings. Recently I went to an exhibition on one of the greatest Finnish artists ever, Helene Schjerfbeck and one room featured most of her self portraits and they were all so different from each other, but not just because she got older, but because her interpretation of what she saw and even her painting technique changed a lot over her life. Musicians might perform the same song, but there is often a different arrangement or something to keep them also interested in doing it over and over again. Dancers can do a role to technical perfection in their youth, but repeating it later on with maturity and perception for emotions can make those later performances surpass the earlier ones.

So those of you who see Hanyu with different eyes, what are the things that make this repetition different from the past ones artistically? Can you explain it to me?

E

 

[Interspectator]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY-BxLWR7Wo　here is a compilation of 4 Chopin performances together. For me, the distribution of elements DOES affect the mood and look of the choreography significantly. And I see a lot of changes in presentation especially between the jumps and the arm variations in the spins and in where he pauses on the ice. The level of attack or languidness is different in each, conveying different intensity and this is not the full range of variations either.
However one can have the opinion that it’s still too similar and not see the changes as significant. This is where the art discourse will probably not find a consensus amongst strongly held opinions.

 

[eppen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY-BxLWR7Wo　here is a compilation of 4 Chopin performances together. For me, the distribution of elements DOES affect the mood and look of the choreography significantly. And I see a lot of changes in presentation especially between the jumps and the arm variations in the spins and in where he pauses on the ice. The level of attack or languidness is different in each, conveying different intensity and this is not the full range of variations either.
However one can have the opinion that it’s still too similar and not see the changes as significant. This is where the art discourse will probably not find a consensus amongst strongly held opinions.

That was difficult to watch because of the screen division, but very interesting. Thanks! I agree on the intensity with the backloaded version in 2017-8, the match with the music is actually much better than in the other layouts. But that is also still part of the way his programs are put together usually: slower and solemn start and a mad intensity in the end to rack up the PCS. Thinking about the subtle changes in timing of movement - there are differences in the length of strokes, some turn does not go as well as planned and the next thing is slightly early/late. The program has to be calibrated to a bigger or smaller rink, so things might take place slightly differently even simply based on that. the skater can even forget a gesture/movement they have practised a thousand times (I remember how a pair skating team messed up an entire lift because she forgot how to place her hands during the competition.) Can the differences really be motivated as varying interpretation of the music?

The languidness I have to disagree on as I regard it as one of Hanyu's primary faults as a performer - his upper body and arms looks sloppy. And IMO it is the main reason why they are selecting the same kinds of pieces of music always. I don't think he could do something requiring upperbody sharpness and precise arms moves - I would love to see him try once, but am not holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

But what I was particularly interested in was a comparison of the two similar layouts performed within 4 years of each other. Is there a difference?

E

PS And, no, I probably cannot be converted to a Hanyu fan after all these years of merely (less than?) lukewarm interest, but I am very interested to understand how his fans see him beyond the pure emotionional response.

 

[monidi]

And, no, I probably cannot be converted to a Hanyu fan after all these years of merely (less than?) lukewarm interest, but I am very interested to understand how his fans see him beyond the pure emotionional response.

Well, i did see some differences yesterday. In mood, in emotions, just like Interspectator wrote. Maybe it's because i have rewatched his older performances at least a hundreds times and know each version of his Chopin performance by heart. I noticed some nuances in music performed differently, change of his face expressions, some movements were done more sharply or some on the contrary softer. It gets deeper every time, it feels more matured, calmer and it's just so him. I had chills watching it. I felt the same with Notte Stellata at GPF or PW at SC this year. Probably to less degree with Origin and Otonal, although he had a couple of great performances, too. Can't wait to see what happens with Seimei.

If you couldn't see it yourself i doubt anyone can explain it so you would suddenly go 'oh, right, i see'. Art has to be felt after all. And different people respond to different types of art, that's normal actually. I like reading other people's opinions. Even if i disagree with them. Because it helps me to think about my feelings and why they are different. Of course, as long as the discussion remains polite and without condescending tone.

The languidness I have to disagree on as I regard it as one of Hanyu's primary faults as a performer - his upper body and arms looks sloppy.

Actually i love this To me it seems natural when he moves like that and just so unique Yuzuru style. I think that's one of the reasons his movements seem to be so effortless and ethereal and his upper body looks relaxed.

And IMO it is the main reason why they are selecting the same kinds of pieces of music always.

He has found the style that suits him the most and tries to develop it further. But in his senior career he has done a lot of different styles: classic, blues, rock, japanese, dramatic, lyrical, musical/movie characters...

 

[solani]

I hope he only does this to regain his confidence, because I don't want to see those programs again at the next Olympics.

 

[Nachi]

This seriously feels less like a constructive discussion instead of little kids crying around "my mommy is FAR better than yours." This tells ME once more what sports or fans are NOT about: sports. You don't actually care about the sport. Most of you seem so very biased that you despise each other and let it seep through your posts. I can't understand why so many people care so much that THEIR favourite deffinitely NEEDS to be better than somebody else. Yes, figure skating is a kind of an edgy sport. It's about athlethism AND artistry. Some might like skaters who are more like athletes, some like the artists, some like it in between. But is it SO hard to admit when a skater/athlete was actually better than another? Same in football! "I hate club XY and they just won their game out of sheer luck and a sh**ty referee." Sounds familiar? Come off of your high horses! YOU are the one watching and you're NOT competing.