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- Jun 22, 2007
My dear friend, dollee.
Don't go to trouble to contradict to what some malicious people say.
I mean it would be total waste of your time.
Hatred is a powerful thing.
But still, LOVE prevails!!!
Who do you consider the most overscored women singles skater in recent history?
- Thread starter slutskayafan21
- Start date
My dear friend, dollee.
Don't go to trouble to contradict to what some malicious people say.
I mean it would be total waste of your time.
Hatred is a powerful thing.
But still, LOVE prevails!!!
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
Asada Mao was overscored in her LP(2007 wc).
She has four Flip(no 2 lutz) ,
3axel is two foot,
3-3 jump under rotation,
And low-level choreography....
Her PCS too much high.
She has four Flip(no 2 lutz) ,
3axel is two foot,
3-3 jump under rotation,
And low-level choreography....
Her PCS too much high.
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- Joined
- Aug 7, 2003
Slutskaya and Mao Asada.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
I'm not anti-YuNa; I was just expressing my humble opinion based on what I see on their performances. If I was anti-YuNa, I'd go on and on about any mistakes of hers that I see.
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- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
Life aint fair...
Kwan is simply the greatest of all time and people need to deal with that... I always feel so sorry for fans who don't appreciate the Kween... your life must be so sad Anywho... I got to thinking about this list and was amazed that the majority of skaters on it have major titles that were earned by being the best skater on that night - which is supposed to be the standard that skating is judged by... whatever.
Now, skaters who have consistency issues yet land on the podium over & over again is another issue... For example: Sasha Cohen was overmarked throughout her career and I sometimes wonder if that hindered her long-term development.
Rosalin Summers is another good candidate for the overmarked winner award. Not necessarily because of her consistency issues, but her overall skating was never than impressive and a 6.0 at the 1980(??) games was a hoot...
But the winner of this award has to go to Nancy Kerrigan... how you become the best US skater and "favorite" for the OGM because you were attacked will always baffle me... The smug attitude is another issue altogether...
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2006
Life aint fair...
This is a joke I presume?Michelle Kwan was often overmarked in my opinion.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2003
Irina Slutskaya: I never thought her presentation marks deserved some of the marks it received during her career. 1996 & 1997 her childlike programs were very much so overmarked. Then in 2000 when the Michelle vs. Irina she often had marks that were higher than Michelle Kwan who then had some very nice programs (although she started to drop off in quality presentation in her LP's in 2003). She is definately near or at the top on that list.
Elena Sokolova: 2003 Worlds, what a jokeHer programs were terrible. She is a beautiful girl, but lawd have mercy, she had no business hitting anything above 5.7 for presentation.
Michelle Kwan: my favorite skater of all time, although her results IMO were 99.9% justified, sometimes they went overboard with her marks ON THE NATIONAL scene, NOT INTERNATIONALLY. But everyone gets overmarked at nationals so umm whats the big deal about that? Furthermore her 1998 Nationals Performances were COMPLETELY justifiable marks!
Victoriya Volchkova: between 1999-2002 this girl received gift after gift. She was just your average skater who had lovely big jumps but couldn't land them all the time. Flop all over the ice and walk home with bronze medals and a slew of 5.6's and 5.7's like they completely blocked out her sprawled out on the ice. This girl barely belonged in the top 10 let alone...top 6 CONSISTENTLY.
I'm noticing a pattern of Russian Skaters being held up...
Elena Sokolova: 2003 Worlds, what a joke
Her programs were terrible. She is a beautiful girl, but lawd have mercy, she had no business hitting anything above 5.7 for presentation.Michelle Kwan: my favorite skater of all time, although her results IMO were 99.9% justified, sometimes they went overboard with her marks ON THE NATIONAL scene, NOT INTERNATIONALLY. But everyone gets overmarked at nationals so umm whats the big deal about that? Furthermore her 1998 Nationals Performances were COMPLETELY justifiable marks!
Victoriya Volchkova: between 1999-2002 this girl received gift after gift. She was just your average skater who had lovely big jumps but couldn't land them all the time. Flop all over the ice and walk home with bronze medals and a slew of 5.6's and 5.7's like they completely blocked out her sprawled out on the ice. This girl barely belonged in the top 10 let alone...top 6 CONSISTENTLY.
I'm noticing a pattern of Russian Skaters being held up...
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2006
I think many people outside the US feel that way about the American skaters.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I am trying to think of any event at which Michelle Kwan was "overmarked."
She skated only once under the New Judging System (2005 Worlds), and got 175 points (LP+SP), which I think was about right. She finished fourth and was not held up.
As for 6.0 judging, we have to remember that the 5.7s and 5.8s don't really mean a thing -- they are just place holders for ordinals. To say that a skater is "overmarked" in ordinal judging means that she received a higher ordinal than deserved.
Looking back, IMHO she deserved the first place ordinal in all of her five World Championship performances, in comparison with the perfromances of the other skaters. The only one that could have gone either way was 1996 against Lu Chen.
At 2007 Worlds Michelle was clearly second to Tara. She was not held up.
At the 1998 Olympics Michelle skated great, but the judges thought Tara was even better. Michelle was not held up.
At 1999 Worlds she skated pretty well in the LP, good enough for second behind Butyrskaya. Michelle was not held up.
At 2002 Olympics maybe she should have gotten second in the free skate ahead of Slutskaya -- but then, maybe Slutskaya should have been first in the short. Overall Michelle's bronze was certainly not an "overplacement."
At 2002 Worlds she was clearly second to Slutskaya and deserved that placement.
In all of her 9 U.S. championships she deserved the first place ordinal without question.
The only event that comes to mind where Michelle won undeservedly was the 2005 Marshall's cheesefest, where the winner was determined not by the judges (they all voted, correctly, for Sasha), but by the fans voting over the Internet for their fave.
She skated only once under the New Judging System (2005 Worlds), and got 175 points (LP+SP), which I think was about right. She finished fourth and was not held up.
As for 6.0 judging, we have to remember that the 5.7s and 5.8s don't really mean a thing -- they are just place holders for ordinals. To say that a skater is "overmarked" in ordinal judging means that she received a higher ordinal than deserved.
Looking back, IMHO she deserved the first place ordinal in all of her five World Championship performances, in comparison with the perfromances of the other skaters. The only one that could have gone either way was 1996 against Lu Chen.
At 2007 Worlds Michelle was clearly second to Tara. She was not held up.
At the 1998 Olympics Michelle skated great, but the judges thought Tara was even better. Michelle was not held up.
At 1999 Worlds she skated pretty well in the LP, good enough for second behind Butyrskaya. Michelle was not held up.
At 2002 Olympics maybe she should have gotten second in the free skate ahead of Slutskaya -- but then, maybe Slutskaya should have been first in the short. Overall Michelle's bronze was certainly not an "overplacement."
At 2002 Worlds she was clearly second to Slutskaya and deserved that placement.
In all of her 9 U.S. championships she deserved the first place ordinal without question.
The only event that comes to mind where Michelle won undeservedly was the 2005 Marshall's cheesefest, where the winner was determined not by the judges (they all voted, correctly, for Sasha), but by the fans voting over the Internet for their fave.
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- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Well at the 2000 Worlds I agreed with Michelle winning the free skate, but I would have had Irina 1st in the short over Maria, instead of 2nd in the short behind Maria as the judges had it, while Michelle was 3rd in the short. With Irina coming second in the free skate, Irina would have won the title that year. 
I also would have had Irina winning the free skate at the 1997 Worlds over both Tara and Michelle, instead of being 3rd behind both (she did have 3 first place ordinals, despite being 3rd in the long) which would have moved Irina to the overall silver, and dropped Michelle to the overall bronze, and dropped Vanessa to the overall 4th. Tara would have still won despite now being only 3rd in the free behind both Irina and Michelle.
Of course I am not unbiased. I agree Irina did not deserve to win the 2002 GP final over Michelle. She should have been 3rd in the final free skate, miles behind Michelle and Sarah, thus dropping to 2nd overall behind Michelle.
I also would have had Irina winning the free skate at the 1997 Worlds over both Tara and Michelle, instead of being 3rd behind both (she did have 3 first place ordinals, despite being 3rd in the long) which would have moved Irina to the overall silver, and dropped Michelle to the overall bronze, and dropped Vanessa to the overall 4th. Tara would have still won despite now being only 3rd in the free behind both Irina and Michelle.
Of course I am not unbiased.
I agree Irina did not deserve to win the 2002 GP final over Michelle. She should have been 3rd in the final free skate, miles behind Michelle and Sarah, thus dropping to 2nd overall behind Michelle.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
So I guess this is an example of Maria B. being overmarked.Well at the 2000 Worlds I agreed with Michelle winning the free skate, but I would have had Irina 1st in the short over Maria, instead of 2nd in the short behind Maria as the judges had it, while Michelle was 3rd in the short. With Irina coming second in the free skate, Irina would have won the title that year.
Well, she was a 6-time Russian champion and defending World Champion at the time, so I can understand why the judges might be inclined to give Butyrskaya the benefit of the doubt over Slutskaya. By a stroke of good fortune (for Michelle) this turned out to benefit Michelle more than it did Maria.
What did you think about 1998 Worlds? I can't find Slutskaya's LP on You Tube to refresh my memory (she fell on her Lutz in the SP), but Michelle didn't have her usual spark, IIRC. I remember thinking that Tara could have beaten Michelle's performance if she (Tara) had come.
I always LOVED the "benefit of the doubt" concept. As in, well, your program was at least 4th best, but since you're the reigning World Champion we're just going to assume that maybe we were just in the wrong mood or we were looking at the whole program wrong and we'll go ahead and put you first. ????????
:sheesh::sheesh::sheesh::sheesh:
[And by saying the above, I'm not saying that Maria should have actually been fourth at that competition as it's been quite a while and I can't remember after all this time where I would have personally placed anybody. I'm just saying IN GENERAL.....]
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Well my comments on the short program placings are strictly my own opinions, and as my username suggests I am a devoted Irina fan just as you are a devotee Michelle fan.
I dont recall anyone at the time commenting on the placing being wrong, or really disputing the placing, so it was probably the correct placing, just not how I would have had it. I would have had Irina first in the short on the basic of Maria's weakness in the spiral sequence and layback spin, and Irina doing a triple flip as her optional triple to Maria's triple loop. You are right you can usual expect the defending Champion to get any benefit of doubt often, which Maria was at the time.
Michelle actually skated alot faster and freely then she had in her Nagano free skate in her Worlds free skate, but also had two major mistakes, doubling a triple salchow and falling on a double axel. Irina Slutskaya and Maria Butyrskaya both turned in vastly superior free skates at Worlds, to what they had turned in at the Olympics where both had lost a 3-way split decision for the bronze medal to Lu Chen. Had Irina and Maria each not had a fall, one or both might have beaten Michelle in the free skate, since even though Michelle did have 9 first place votes the scores were extremely close.
I definitely agreed with Michelle winning though, and probably even agreed with her winning the free skate. In the short program Irina fell on the triple lutz as you said, and Maria turned her combo in a single lutz and two footed another jump. There are some who thought both were held up in the short, for Irina to be 4th, and Maria 5th, and some thought that Liashenko (6th and clean), Malinina (7th and clean) and maybe even Kwiatkwoski (8th with small step out in between triple lutz and double toe in combo) should have been higher then them. I actually ageed with the judges rankings, since I felt Slutskaya and Butyrskaya were superior enough in their programs to compensate for the major mistake compared to those others. There was definitely debate over their short prorgram placings though.
As for the free skate, Irina did two triple-triples - triple toe-triple toe and triple sal-triple loop, with a three turn out of the second jump of both but still clean. She landed 6 total triples. Her mistake was falling on a triple flip. Maria skated cleanly with 6 triples, until near the very end when she took a jarring fall doing some backwards dance steps. It was near the end, but it took her quite awhile to recover, she turned out of her last double axel, and the ending was kind of a fizzle. I think Irina and/or Maria might have beaten Michelle in the free skate without their fall. Both would have had to for one or the other to win. As it was both had higher technical marks then Michelle, but Michelle won out on the second mark. Irina beat Maria on a 5-4 split for the silver, in this case Maria won the 2nd mark slightly, Irina the tech. mark slightly. Even as an Irina fan, Irina's program lacked seriously in maturity and style, especialy compared to Michelle. Maria's fall definitely hurt her on both the tech. and pres. mark I think, since it was really a long recovery and distraction to the program.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I have heard several judges remark that this is one thing they like about the new judging system.
Under the old system, there was a certain amount of self-generated pressure along the lines of, gee, that really wasn't all that great, but my goodness, she's the World Champion so I guess the perfromance must have been better than I thought. Plus, judges didn't want to look foolish by giving a 5.2 when everyone else was giving a 5.8.
Now, so I understand, it's a lot easier just to push the buttons on the computer after each element and let the points add up as they may. Somehow there is less pressure this way.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2006
Well for Ladies I think that when the new Judging System first came out and it wasn't that developed I think that Sasha Cohen was the most overscored.
Now back to someone that posted earlier's point, Caroline Zhang; well say what you want about her being overscored but I think she's great but i hate to say it but when she goes from a girl to a lady she's going to have SOOOOOOOOOOO much hell because as a girl her body can take all of those triples but when she grows up they are going to be sooooo much harder to do. and her getting two senior GP assignments this next season came as a bit of a shock to me as she was only the Junior Silver Medalist at nationals but then again the World Junior Champion later so we'll see what happens.
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For Men (although I know this is completely off topic) but OMG his SP was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO over scored at the Worlds this last season.
Jumps: Triple axel--fall triple flip--glitz quadtoe-tripletoe was a tripletoe-doubletoe and he was still 5th or so after the short, i assure you if he wasn't the reigning world champion he would've been a good 11th or lower NO MAN can get away in the short program with having a triple toe-double toe as a combination and expect to place very high lol.
Now back to someone that posted earlier's point, Caroline Zhang; well say what you want about her being overscored but I think she's great but i hate to say it but when she goes from a girl to a lady she's going to have SOOOOOOOOOOO much hell because as a girl her body can take all of those triples but when she grows up they are going to be sooooo much harder to do. and her getting two senior GP assignments this next season came as a bit of a shock to me as she was only the Junior Silver Medalist at nationals but then again the World Junior Champion later so we'll see what happens.
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For Men (although I know this is completely off topic) but OMG his SP was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO over scored at the Worlds this last season.
Jumps: Triple axel--fall triple flip--glitz quadtoe-tripletoe was a tripletoe-doubletoe and he was still 5th or so after the short, i assure you if he wasn't the reigning world champion he would've been a good 11th or lower NO MAN can get away in the short program with having a triple toe-double toe as a combination and expect to place very high lol.
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