Stavinski Kills One, Injures three in Drunk driving accident

[demarinis5]

This thread is bordering on it's ok to drive while you're drunk but don't kill anyone. C'mon.

Oda was stopped by the Police and that is what saved him from killing somebody. i don't know why you can't understand that?

Because he was stopped, he will be charged with reckless driving. What that punishment carries in Japan, he has to face. I don't think the JSF should be adding to that, but that's my opinion.

If only the Bulgarian Police had prevented poor Max from continuing driving the accident would not have happened.

Joe

:agree:

 

[Zanzibar]

I clearly understand that it is not a popular opinion to hold, but I feel sorry for Maxim. Yes, he was reckless and did a very stupid and bad thing. But many of us in our lives have done things that could have easily resulted in the accidental death of another. Driving while talking on the cell phone...you name it. Taking chances by running a yellow light that turned red, etc., etc.

Yes, Maxim did a terrible thing - a huge mistake - by getting behind the wheel after drinking, but he is still Max - he is still a very good person who happened to have a tragic lapse in judgement. He should suffer, and he will. But it is his own mind that will probably cause him the greatest punishment for the rest of his life.

 

[yuriko]

This thread is bordering on it's ok to drive while you're drunk but don't kill anyone. C'mon.
Oda was stopped by the Police and that is what saved him from killing somebody. i don't know why you can't understand that?

Because he was stopped, he will be charged with reckless driving. What that punishment carries in Japan, he has to face. I don't think the JSF should be adding to that, but that's my opinion.

If only the Bulgarian Police had prevented poor Max from continuing driving the accident would not have happened.

Joe

(Emphasis added by yuriko.)

Joe, nobody said anything to suggest, "It's okay to drive while you're drunk but don't kill anyone." I don't know if you are aware of it, but I regret that your previous post is unnecessarily sarcastic and I hope you would take it back. Please pay respect to others enough to read their opinions carefully and try to understand them before overreacting to them. Do not ridicule them for what they have not even said as a result of your overreaction. Every one of us in the forum deserves adequate respect whether you like their opinions or not.

As far as I know, nobody has justified DUI. However, many people, including me, were discussing that the level and kinds of severity of the offenses are different for Oda and for Maxim and that they would be treated differently by the law. Such discussion is completely different from what you made up: "It's okay to drive while you're drunk but don't kill anyone." I would hope you understand the difference. All the posters I have seen in this thread made their points intelligible if you are respectful enough to read them carefully.

Again, please let me repeat that nobody said anything to suggest that it was okay for Oda to DUI or break the law. Nobody said that Oda should not be punished by the law, either.

 

[yuriko]

Forgiveness

As for forgiveness, it's hard to move forward with one's life without forgiving, whether it be the offending party or yourself for giving the offense. Anger is the biggest roadblock to recovering. Based upon an Oprah episode, those that have been left behind after such tragedies (i.e. Columbine, drunk driving accidents, etc.) have only healed after learning how to forgive and by diverting their energy into a 'cause.' Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting.

Thank you for your thoughtful post, heyang. I very much appreciate it. I basically agree with you. But I am wondering if healing comes first or forgiveness comes first. That is, a person who is healed enough to feel forgiving forgives or a person who forgives can be healed sooner. Anger is a natural, justifiable emotion felt by victims of this kind of tragic accident. Among people with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, for example, anger is one of the most common symptoms experienced by them. I am wondering how a victim of a tragedy like this “learns how to forgive”.

"In my book no forgiveness is allowed when someone's irresponsability ends up killing another. " (quote from response above)

I think that this is a harsh statement. As a born again Christian, I know that God is capable of forgiving all sins. He even restored and used great men in the Bible who had killed people. We are all capable of doing things that are terrible. Just wait until someone you know is in this situation. There is NOTHING that is unforgivable. Especially when the person wants forgiveness and is remorseful. I am glad that God has forgiven my sins and paid the penalty of sin for those who believe in him.

People can change. This will change Max, and he will need help to make it in life now. It is also part of the healing process for the victim's and their families to forgive. We cannot expect that others will forgive or show mercy if we are unwilling to do this ourselves.

Arianne

What a great faith, Arianne. I very much appreciate your sharing this.
But I am wondering how a person can reach the point to be able to say that "There is NOTHING that is unforgivable." I feel that if I were a victim of this kind of tragedy, it would be very, very difficult for me to forgive the offender.
As a third person, I have always adored Maxim’s skating, which has not changed. I still don't hate him as a person, either. But what he did was really terrible and unacceptable. As a third person who appreciated his skating so much, I can still believe that Maxim would take his misdeed very seriously and remorse deeply. I also feel that I am not in a position to say that I forgive him or not because he did not harm me. But if I were a victim, I just don't think that I could forgive him because perhaps I wouldn't be able to love and trust him enough to think that he would suffer as much as I would as a victim. Besides, he is alive whereas others are dead, which seems to make an unbridgeable gap between him and the victims. I may feel that how much he suffers, it’s not enough.

 

[bekalc]

If I were a victim...I think I would try to forgive him, because that's what I should do as a Catholic Christian.

But I would also want to see the legal system bring Max to punishment because I also think that mercy includes justice as well, and I want Max and others to be taugth a lesson so it doesn't happen again... Now, if I were the boy's parents I wouldn't seek any money. But if I were the girl's parents who is in the hospital, I would want some money if she was/is permantely injured. But I would want to make sure there was enough money to take care of Albena for the rest of her days because Albena is a victim in this too.

A part of me doesn't want to judge Max... I'm not the best driver myself. But I do think that there should be a legal punishment..

 

[SusanBeth]

I clearly understand that it is not a popular opinion to hold, but I feel sorry for Maxim. Yes, he was reckless and did a very stupid and bad thing. But many of us in our lives have done things that could have easily resulted in the accidental death of another. Driving while talking on the cell phone...you name it. Taking chances by running a yellow light that turned red, etc., etc.

Yes, Maxim did a terrible thing - a huge mistake - by getting behind the wheel after drinking, but he is still Max - he is still a very good person who happened to have a tragic lapse in judgement. He should suffer, and he will. But it is his own mind that will probably cause him the greatest punishment for the rest of his life.

I agree. You can feel compassion for someone and still hold them responsible for their acts. Compassion is not a "get out of jail free" card.

I feel for everyone involved. It's just heartbreaking.

 

[heyang]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, heyang. I very much appreciate it. I basically agree with you. But I am wondering if healing comes first or forgiveness comes first. That is, a person who is healed enough to feel forgiving forgives or a person who forgives can be healed soon. Anger is a natural, justifiable emotion felt by victims of this kind of tragic accident. Among people with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, for example, anger is one of the most common symptoms experienced by them. I am wondering how a victim of a tragedy like this “learns how to forgive”.
QUOTE]


Never said it was an overnight process. For some, it can take years. It would be wrong to deny the anger, but a balance must be struck between the anger vs the energy drain involved in sustaining the anger.

 

[Tonichelle]

It's good advice and I'm glad you follow it!
But I wouldn't say it's quite that easy, and there's some learning by experience involved for things like effects of tylonol, or cold medicine, or illness, or tiredness. And since most people with a small alcohol impairment don't feel impaired, it stands to reason that most people with a small illness/emotional upset/tiredness/general distractedness impairment would also not feel impaired, so how could you be sure that you were following this advice at all times?

Whenever I know I can't drive home from work because I am tired I do call and get picked up (After driving my truck into the arena where it can't get broken into) or catch a ride with a coworker. I'm not trying to be holier than though, I'm just saying that I'm a 'young person' who apparently doesn't have the idiot mentality of invincibility. I can't chalk it up to 'experience' I've been driving for 2.5 years (not even that). I just know my body. and I've heard/read enough horror stories that I don't want to be another statistic. I just wish that the other driver would feel the same way.

My feeling is - everyone knows, or has at least heard, that alchohol can affect your mind in peculiar ways. Grow up and act accordingly. If you're not sure, don't do it. If you are sure, still don't do it (the more drunk you are the more stupid you are).

The nap, IMHO, just shows that he probably knew he was going to be impaired and was hoping sleep would help. it didn't... would it have been that hard to get a ride from someone else?

 

[debdelilah]

The nap, IMHO, just shows that he probably knew he was going to be impaired and was hoping sleep would help. it didn't... would it have been that hard to get a ride from someone else?

No; of course he was breaking the law; of course he could have gotten a ride.
I personally am not in a position to sit in judgment on him because of what I mentioned before--how I nearly fell asleep on the road. And part of me finds it unjust that what I did(driving tired) was not illegal, even though it was in many ways worse than what he did. And so I feel there should be some more objective criteria for(and education about) impairment, not that impairment should be legal.

Violating traffic laws is a pretty good objective criteria. People who are drunk usually either drive significantly slower or significantly faster than the speed or traffic, which is grounds by itself for being pulled over. If they cut someone off, change lanes without signalling, etc., they can be ticketed and a breathalyzer can be administered, and if they're impaired because of tiredness, it's still reckless driving, and still illegal.

I don't like how the checkpoints are used in the particular part of VA I used to live in because the police always used to ask where people lived, even after looking at the driver's license, and I thought they discriminated based on what kind of housing you were living in. The local government is corrupt enough that they claimed a lot of older(and less expensive) housing had to be torn down in order to build the new Wilson Bridge; but instead of using that land for anything public, they have started building million dollar condos on it. They put sobriety checkpoints on a particular road and devote large numbers of police to questioning everyone who drives down the street, and they aren't particularly respectful even though they stop people who haven't violated any law. I personally think they're trying to harrass people they consider undesirable into moving away from the area.

It sounds like you are an extremely bright person with a very good unbringing who has made impeccable decisions. That is wonderful; my upbringing was more of a "drink coffee if you're going to be driving late or tired" sort of thing. I personally know no one who was injured in a drunk driving accident, and yet I know two people who were involved in severe crashes because they fell asleep at the wheel, so it skews things for me. My thinking is, Oda was awake at the wheel; his vehicle had a driver who may not have been perfectly alert, but was at least conscious enough to make his best attempt at driving safely. His DUI was illegal, and deserved punishment, but he did not compound the DUI by breaking traffic laws. Driving a moped makes a difference to me. Of course it can cause a fatal accident, but even the slightest collision with the actual moped is likely to cause serious injury or fatality in the driver, which makes it less likely that a driver would attempt to drive aggressively, which is a different issue than driving drunk.

 

[Jaana]

Only a danger to himself, on a moped? Ok. Supposing Oda, driving drunk on a moped, had fallen asleep, or lost control on wet pavement, or for some other reason lost control of the bike and gone out into the path of traffic...causing a car to swerve to avoid hitting him, which then hits another car, killing one person and injuring several others. At that point, was he "just a danger to himself"?

All this crap about "Oda was just on a moped" is just that, crap. He had an above limit alcohol level and was on a vehicle on a public road. Period. End of story. I am sure he is reading about this issue and thanking God that he didn't cause a similar event.

Yes, Oda had an above limit alcohol level according to the law of his country. In my opinion though he should be punished for what he did and not for what he could have done under worst circumstances. Meaning that he did not kill or injure other people. Yes, he might have, but he didn´t. His case is very different compared to what Staviski did.

Generally speaking I wonder what percentage of car accidents are caused by people driving under the influence of alcohol or some other stuff? And how many by so-called reckless (or something like that) drivers? My personal belief is that every driver can be a potential danger to other people, in one way or another.

 

[antmanb]

Better the car than the person.

But the car could have a person in it who dies as a result....what happens to the drunk who was in the road if that happens?

Ant

 

[diver chick]

If only the Bulgarian Police had prevented poor Max from continuing driving the accident would not have happened.

Joe

'If only Max hadn't gotten in the car having had alcohol the accident would not have happened'

If only's don't help the family that have lost a son, fiancee, brother.

If Maxim has a conscience then this will affect him for the rest of his life and hopefully make him a better and stronger person for it. He won't need people like us beating him up over it because he will be doing a good enough job himself. Maybe now he will take his campaigning against drink driving with the seriousness he should have done before now. I do have sympathy for Max and what this will do to his and Albena's life but I can understand why some people may not feel the same.

What I don't understand is why it is not simply illegal to drink and drive in any capacity! I *never* get behind the wheel of a car if I have had so much as a drop of alcohol and if I have had a heavy night out I do not drive the car until I am a clear 24 hours from drinking alcohol, just to be sure. This was a decision I made when I passed my driving test and is something that I stick to. I won't lie and say it has been easy, there have been evenings when I have wanted to join everyone in a glass of white wine but I just don't. I never know how it will effect me, as a female if I am hormonal I feel the effects of alcohol far more sharply and quickly than normal, if I haven't eaten or if I am tired or if I have taken medication, these are all things that will cause me to react differently to alcohol and where one day I may be perfectly fine to drive after two glasses of wine, a different day, under different circumstances I wouldn't be so I just don't take the chance.

My condolences and prayers go out to *all* the families affected by this tragedy.

 

[discoduck]

This is so sad. I feel for everyone that is affected by it.

 

[manleywoman]

But the car could have a person in it who dies as a result....what happens to the drunk who was in the road if that happens?

Ant

They made it sound like a choice between a pedestrian on the street and a parked car with nobody in it. Thats what I was basing my comment on.

 

[_Ladybug_]

"In my book no forgiveness is allowed when someone's irresponsability ends up killing another. " (quote from response above)

I think that this is a harsh statement. As a born again Christian, I know that God is capable of forgiving all sins. He even restored and used great men in the Bible who had killed people. We are all capable of doing things that are terrible. Just wait until someone you know is in this situation. There is NOTHING that is unforgivable. Especially when the person wants forgiveness and is remorseful. I am glad that God has forgiven my sins and paid the penalty of sin for those who believe in him.

People can change. This will change Max, and he will need help to make it in life now. It is also part of the healing process for the victim's and their families to forgive. We cannot expect that others will forgive or show mercy if we are unwilling to do this ourselves.

Arianne

I know it's harsh. But I'm not God. I'm very far from perfect and this is, in my opinion, something I would never forgive (although it's not up to me to forgive him or not). I can only think about a mother who is going to live without her son because Maxim decided to drive while drunk. I think about a fiancee that will not get married now (at least for now) because Maxim drunk and killed a guy. He was about my age. That's awful beyond words. I do hope he will be harshly punished by the law. Hopefully others will learn from it.

 

[yuriko]

In my opinion though he[Oda] should be punished for what he did and not for what he could have done under worst circumstances.

Absolutely. The legal system makes judgments based on tangible facts, not the "could have happened" scenarios. It could have been all possible that Oda killed somebody by his DUI. It could have been also all possible that Oda had realized he was not sober after the 50 meters of drive and had decided to get off and to take a cab. We just cannot punish without evidence. In Oda's case, we only know that he had alcohol in his system above limit.

Having said that, however, I think that DUI law in itself takes the "could have happened" factors into considerations to some extent. But the thing is that the punishment for DUI itself is not very harsh, compared to all the "could have happened senarios" in the worst cases.

I think that a solution for the perceived gap between the "could have happened" scenarios and the actual penalty for DUI would be to simply increase the penalty for DUI.

 

[yuriko]

His DUI was illegal, and deserved punishment, but he did not compound the DUI by breaking traffic laws.

Yes, if he had compounded the DUI by breaking the other traffic laws, he would have been indeed subject to severer punishment.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/酒気帯び

Driving a moped makes a difference to me. Of course it can cause a fatal accident, but even the slightest collision with the actual moped is likely to cause serious injury or fatality in the driver, which makes it less likely that a driver would attempt to drive aggressively, which is a different issue than driving drunk.

I really don't know if DUI with a moped is less dangerous than DUI with a car. But a moped seems to be subject to less monetary fine than DUI with a car in court cases.

http://www008.upp.so-net.ne.jp/ko-tu-ihan/FAQ/ihan-sake.htm

 

[yuriko]

What I don't understand is why it is not simply illegal to drink and drive in any capacity!

Yeah, I am also interested in the zero tolerance policy.

Yet, in Japan, where the limit is 0.15mg in breath (0.3 mg in blood), however, a glass of wine/beer at a dinner table easily yields the legal limit for women with average weights, thereby practically making it like the zero tolerance at least for them.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

People have dinner after a cocktail and a glass of wine while dining - not unusual. After dinner, they take a cab home.

Joe

 

[yuriko]

People have dinner after a cocktail and a glass of wine while dining - not unusual. After dinner, they take a cab home.

Joe

That's what they do in Japan, too, or take public transportation.

But I am afraid that I was talking about the legal limit, not the norms that you might have thought I was. In order to have intelligible discussions, please be aware that different dimensions of discussions are going on: social, legal, moral etc.