Johnny and the quad

[Tinymavy15]

I know that there has been a a lot of talk about wheather or not johnny wier would try the quad at nationals and worlds last year. At the olympics, reports of him landing quad triples with great ease abounded. We have yet to see a clean one. However, I feel that if johnny continues to try it and go for it in all his competitions it couldl really help him. Jeff Buttle has used a unavailabe quad to his advantage. By going for it and falling, he has been able to get a medal at worlds and the olympics.... more than Mr. Wier has been able to acomplish.
If i remeber correctly, johnny has tried the quad twice and double footed it both times. a double-footed quad surley must gather more points than a fallen one. So even if johnny ALWAYS double foots his quad, he woud still get more points than a triple. I think that always inserting the jump in his programs would be a good idea... and who knows... if he really and land them that well in pratcice, he might do a clean one in competition!

thoughts?

 

[Kasey]

A double-footed quad is downgraded to a triple, I believe. And then negative GOE for two footing it. So I believe as CoP works, he would get less points for a double footed quad than he would for a well-done triple.

 

[Tinymavy15]

A double-footed quad is downgraded to a triple, I believe. And then negative GOE for two footing it. So I believe as CoP works, he would get less points for a double footed quad than he would for a well-done triple.

so he would get fewer points for a 2 footed quad than for a quad that he fell on? Another major error in CoP!! So unless you are sure that you will land clean, don't bother fighting for the landing, but sit down?

 

[Mafke]

A double-footed quad is downgraded to a triple, I believe. And then negative GOE for two footing it. So I believe as CoP works, he would get less points for a double footed quad than he would for a well-done triple.

No. An underrotated (according to the caller) quad is downgraded to a triple and thus treated as overrotated _and_ gets hammered in GOE.

Two-footing a jump is no great sin in COP unlike 6.0 where it was supposed to nullify the jump. It get's maybe a loss of a point or so on GOE (inconsistently).

I'm not sure what the point differential is between a fully rotated quad with a fall vs. a cleanly landed but slightly underrotated quad would be.

As I always write, I loathe quads. Nevertheless, the judges have made it perfectly clear they don't want podium finishers who don't do one, no matter how ugly they are and how much the rest of the program suffers.

As for Weir, I believe reports that he has a quad (and combinations with quad) in practice. But he's scaled down in compeition so often that that's become a habit he needs to break.
Therefore, if Weir is serious about finishing on the podium he needs to start putting the quad into his performances, counting on the fact that it'll take some time to be consistent in competition, I'd say assume the first five attempts will not be clean (IIRC Tonya Harding tried the 3axel something like 8 times before landing it cleanly in competition). Waiting until nationals or worlds to put it in is _not_ a good idea. Sacrifice the GPF if necessary but go full out and try it in every single performance (LP and SP) until it's there.

 

[psycho]

Johnny is a perfectionist. He often said that unless the quad has been absolutely perfect in practice, he won't put it in. He has said that he would never jeopardize the quality of the program he's skating by inserting a "quad-fall" element. That is why we haven't seen the quad often in competition.

He also has some kind of mental block about it in competition when he does choose to do it.

However, I think that he'll land one this year. He's way overdue, and it's not like he can't do one. It's not rocket science, it's a quad.

 

[icejunkie]

I think along with Johnny's quad issues, he also needs to land that 3 loop that's been giving him problems. Strangely the axel, which has always appeared to be one of his best jumps, has also been giving him problems. His biggest problem is consistency at this point. I hope he works hard to get them back!

 

[Mafke]

He has said that he would never jeopardize the quality of the program he's skating by inserting a "quad-fall" element.

No, but he will jeopardize the quality of the program he's skating by leaving out jumping passes and being undertrained and not-very-focused.

Don't get me wrong, he's probably my favorite male skater currently, though that's not saying much since Klimkin's apparently retired : (.
But, he's a little too good at finding excuses for not doing things he doesn't want to.

 

[psycho]

No, but he will jeopardize the quality of the program he's skating by leaving out jumping passes and being undertrained and not-very-focused.

Don't get me wrong, he's probably my favorite male skater currently, though that's not saying much since Klimkin's apparently retired : (.
But, he's a little too good at finding excuses for not doing things he doesn't want to.

You realize he doesn't leave jumping passes out on purpose, right?! He freaks out and starts changing his program around and either does too many and or too few jumping passes. You're making it seem like he's sits there before competition and decides. "Today, I will be unfocused. Also, triple flip-you're out for the day." I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen. He's not the only one who changes things around like that. Oda suffers from the same problem. It happens.

Why is it an excuse? It's an explanation. He does not feel he can land the jump perfectly, so he doesn't want to ruin the artsy program with a fall. That sounds reasonable. It's not like he doesn't train the quad in the meantime. He's been training quads since he was 17 and landing them consistently for many years now.

What makes you think he doesn't want to do the quad?! What's the point of damaging your body and training them in practice then?

 

[Ptichka]

I'm not sure what the point differential is between a fully rotated quad with a fall vs. a cleanly landed but slightly underrotated quad would be.

Quad toe loop - base 9.0, GoE of -3 subtracts 3.0 result --> 6.0. However, if I read the rules correctly, then additional 3 points are to be deducted for a fall on landing. So essentially, you only get 3.0 added for the given element.

Assuming quad was underrotated enough to be counted as a triple: base=4.0. The rules also do have a point about "under roated and downgraded". If that is what's meant, than it's a negative GoE, plus between 1 and 3 points deducted from the program. Assuming jump only gets -1GoE, we subtract 1 point. Essentially, it all gets the skater between 2 and -1 points for the given element.

Personally, I don't see why such a high deduction for a downgraded jump. To me, a well executed underrotated jump does not disrupt the program; should just get the GoE that the jump (the downgraded version I mean) deserves as performed.

 

[GoldMedalist]

You get 5 points for falling on a Quad; a point or so less if it's clean but underrotated.

 

[Mathman]

Quad toe loop - base 9.0, GoE of -3 subtracts 3.0 result --> 6.0. However, if I read the rules correctly, then additional 3 points are to be deducted for a fall on landing.

I think it's just an additional 1 point. Like Goldmedalist says, no matter how bad every phase of a quad toe is, including the world's worst belly flop on the landing, if you complete the rotations you get 5 points.

You get 5 points for falling on a Quad; a point or so less if it's clean but underrotated.

As far as I can see from the protocols, a downgraded jump always gets a substantial negative GOE on top of the downgrade. Whether, as Mafke points out, for "overroatation" of the lesser jump, or some other reason.

But when the skater plans a quad, but changes his mind and does only a triple instead, there is no penalty for that, and in fact, it might even get a positive GOE (presumably for being a REALLY BIG triple, LOL.)

I agree with Ptichka. The penalty for underrotation seems out of line with the penalties for other errors.

1. Fully rotated quad ( = three-and-three-quarters turns in the air, less pre-rotaion) with a fall: 5.0 points.

2. Valiant try but a little short on the rotation, saves the landing: usually 3 points or less.

3. Forget the quad and do a triple: 4 points plus GOE.

 

[Ptichka]

I think it's just an additional 1 point. Like Goldmedalist says, no matter how bad every phase of a quad toe is, including the world's worst belly flop on the landing, if you complete the rotations you get 5 points.

Well, may be I am misunderstanding the ISU communication. Take a look in http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISUCommunication1396.pdf, page 7:
Element - Jump
Error - "Fall on landing"
Reduction of other - "-3, -GoE".
I read this to mean that 3 points are deducted from the program, and a negative GoE is given. Base 9, maximum negative GoE, and -3 would give us 3.

 

[Mafke]

Personally, I don't see why such a high deduction for a downgraded jump. To me, a well executed underrotated jump does not disrupt the program; should just get the GoE that the jump (the downgraded version I mean) deserves as performed.

I totally agree. I think of it as the "Sarah Hughes" rule. A prominent Russian coach (or Piseev?) made a big deal in an interview about how she _never_ could have won SLC with COP specifically mentioning her notoriously underrotated combinations (implying that Slutskaya should be regarded as the 'real' winner?)

Anyway, I think an otherwise well-executed underrotated jump should get dinged in GoE and nothing else. The bizarre over-penalization of underrotation is a huge weakness of COP.

 

[Sylvia]

I read this to mean that 3 points are deducted from the program, and a negative GoE is given. Base 9, maximum negative GoE, and -3 would give us 3.

No. -3 GOE is given by all the judges for a fall. A fall on a rotated quad toe is worth 6 points, minus 1 point for the fall = 5 points (as GoldMedalist posted above).

 

[Mafke]

You realize he doesn't leave jumping passes out on purpose, right?! ...
Why is it an excuse? It's an explanation. He does not feel he can land the jump perfectly, so he doesn't want to ruin the artsy program with a fall.
What makes you think he doesn't want to do the quad?! What's the point of damaging your body and training them in practice then?

Whether or not he leaves out jumping passes on purpose (of course he doesn't) the result is the same. He leaves a lot of points on the ice.
I think the 'not wanting to ruing the program' thing sounds like a rationalization.
What I think happens: He's inadvertently trained himself to not do the quad in competition and it's become a very big mental block. Sort of like Sandhu inadvertently training himself to pop the 3-axel (not what he intended to do but in the stress of competion it's what his body memory did whether he consciously wanted it to or not).
I think he doesn't want to the quad because he .... doesn't do the quad in competition. When he starts doing them regularly (no matter the result) I'll believe he wants to do it.

In terms of pure skating, I'd rather he didn't do the quad. If he could deliver a clean program with the full gamut of triples and jumping passes allowed with excellent posture, musicality and skating skills I'd be there and he'll finish 8th (the fact that I enjoyed his program more than all the quadsters put together would be irrelevant).

If he wants to finish on that worlds podium though ... well the judging panel wants what it wants, and what it wants is big ugly quads.

 

[psycho]

I think he doesn't want to the quad because he .... doesn't do the quad in competition. When he starts doing them regularly (no matter the result) I'll believe he wants to do it.

Well, if you use this logic, then you can say that skaters who don't do clean programs don't want to do them because they don't do them in competition. It's a circular argument, and it's unfair because you can want something very much, and not do it in competition.

I do agree that he's psyching himself out with the quad. In fact, I think that he wants it too much, that's why he has trouble with it. If he treated it just like any other jump, he would have landed it by now.

Johnny has said that he hates falling most of all. It is evident in his programs that he would rather downgrade a jump than fall. That's the way he approaches the situation, and I don't think it's fair to say that he doesn't want it enough or doesn't try. Just because you try something and fail at it, does not mean you are not trying.

 

[Hsuhs]

2007 US Nats Results:
http://spokane2007.usfigureskating.org/News/EventNews/~/media/F64E4C8F2ADA412FBDAF2BCC8EA8EC5C.ashx

Johnny, FS:
4T: 9.00(BV) - 1.57 (GOE) = 7.43

Which is still a bit too much, b/c there's a standard -2 GOE for 2footing a jump.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I totally agree. I think of it as the "Sarah Hughes" rule. A prominent Russian coach (or Piseev?) made a big deal in an interview about how she _never_ could have won SLC with COP specifically mentioning her notoriously underrotated combinations (implying that Slutskaya should be regarded as the 'real' winner?)

Of course, only the Russians saw how notorious her 3x3s were. That competition was for Irina. What else can a fan say?

I also noted Emily's underrotations in other competitions as I have of every skater who didn't quite make the full rotations on occasion. It happens, and there were no under rotations in that LP.

And the pre-under rotations are the most notorious on just about every skater.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Well, may be I am misunderstanding the ISU communication. Take a look in http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISUCommunication1396.pdf, page 7:
Element - Jump
Error - "Fall on landing"
Reduction of other - "-3, -GoE".
I read this to mean that 3 points are deducted from the program, and a negative GoE is given. Base 9, maximum negative GoE, and -3 would give us 3.

Yeah, this ISU shorthand is hard to figure out. But now I am pretty sure that

"-3, -GOE"

means: Take 3 points off GOE for the error. But if other aspects of the jump warrant a positive GOE to compensate, then the total GOE for the element might end up as -2 or -1.

However, the "-GOE" at the end means, you must give a negative GOE total for the element, no metter how excellent the rest of the jump might have been.

But the rule is different this year. (Publication #1396 should be replaced by Publication #1445):

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-183415-200633-121139-0-file,00.pdf

The new rule for a fall on the landing is "-3 GOE" period. In other words, the judges have no leeway and the computer automatically enters -3 GOE for them.

Besides this, there is the 1 point fall deduction taken off at the end, independent of other considerations.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

On topic - I've seen Johnny hit 4T clean at practice, but he puts too much pressure on himself in the warm up if he misses, and so he'll leave it out.
There are those who believe a Quad is not necessary especially with everthing else about Johnny.

I see clean Quads from Daisuke, Joubert, Lambiel and maybe Plushenko A good chance of more quads by other skaters would be Verner, Lysacek, Li, and Lindenman. Possible clean quads by Johnny and Jeffrey.

The Old Question: Can a guy win a comp without one? Can he podium without one?

Joe