Quads in women’s SP

[Yuna Luna]

Hi everyone. Sorry if this is not the right place to ask. I was wondering if anyone knows how many men had landed an international quad by the time quads were legalised in the men’s short program , or else how I can go about collecting this information. I know I will have to look at data from pre IJS seasons but I don’t know how or where to do it.

I’m asking because so far 16 women from 4 countries have landed a clean quad internationally and I wonder if this is enough justification to allow quads in women’s SP. I’m interested to hear other’s opinions too. What do you think about it?

 

[gkelly]

Quads were first allowed in the men's short program in the 1998-99 season -- as the solo jump only, which at that time was required to be preceded by steps or other skating moves.

Are you looking for how many different men had successfully landed quads as of the end of the 1998 season? If so, how should "successful" be defined, given that there were no IJS protocols at the time? Or do you also want to include those who had attempted in competition but not succeeded?

 

[Yuna Luna]

Quads were first allowed in the men's short program in the 1998-99 season -- as the solo jump only, which at that time was required to be preceded by steps or other skating moves.

Are you looking for how many different men had successfully landed quads as of the end of the 1998 season? If so, how should "successful" be defined, given that there were no IJS protocols at the time? Or do you also want to include those who had attempted in competition but not succeeded?

Yes, that’s what I’m looking for!! I’m not sure how success was defined pre IJS but I know that for example another man landed a quad before Kurt Browning, but it was later disqualified because his free leg touched the ice so Kurt got credited with the first quad. So basically I’m looking for successfuly landed and ratified quads not just attempts.

 

[4everchan]

@eppen
is your person with data about quads.

 

[gkelly]

Here's a web page with a good history:

The Great Leap Forward: Establishing the Quads in the 1990s – Fascinatio glaciei

 

[Jontor]

Quads makes everything uncertain. The men proves that again and again with high profile skaters bombing every other event. After the big rule changes introduced in the 2018/19 season with the +5/-5 GOE system, it turned unsuccessful quads into a negative. Before that, you could fall on a quad and still get the points. Now a failed quad is less worth than an average triple.

Introducing quads in the short for women seems fair. But remember, you can't win the competition in the short, but you can certainly lose it.
So adding quads for women will only make them as unpredictable as men.

 

[DougDorsey]

I’m asking because so far 16 women from 4 countries have landed a clean quad internationally and I wonder if this is enough justification to allow quads in women’s SP. I’m interested to hear other’s opinions too. What do you think about it?

Limiting this to quads landed internationally doesn't nearly reflect the state of the womens discipline as a whole. Many of the most talented skaters in the sport in recent years have not had the chance to compete internationally – due to age, bans, limits on entries per country, etc..

43 women have landed a clean quad in competition, whether internationally or domestically. That's about 2.7x your data point.

I would use that, as it presents a more accurate and compelling case for why it's time to bring about gender parity in the sport, and for the ISU to stop pretending like women can't do what men can.

 

[eppen]

The data available is basically videos on YT, online rink-side reports from fans, some fs history sites etc. And the online data often also disappears. Some of the sites I used in the late 2010s when I started collecting quads have since vanished.

My count from 1983 to end of 1997-98 is 136 attempts - this includes also Bonaly. 124 without Bonaly. 30 skaters altogether. About 47 of those attempts were cleanish, looked/reportedly fully-rotated and were otherwise ok. 15 skaters behind the good attempts. There are probably some domestic attempts that we cannot know about, particularly Russia and China, maybe also USA and Canada, and the actual tally is probably higher.

The late 1990s and pre-IJS 2000s were a time of really quick development for quads. In the 1998-99 season, there were already 79 attemps (14 in the short), 1999-2000 124 attempts (44 in the short) etc. I have wondred for a long time what triggered this, but it happened...

The number of women who have attempted quads in competition is 114 since 1990 when Bonaly kicked it off. 43 of them have gotten at least one fully-rotated and positive GOE jump in their competetive careers. These are ofc mostly since 2017-18 and mostly Russians. (16 internationally, yes, but from 5 countries: AZE, JPN, KAZ, RUS, USA.)

It feels a little funny that quads are forbidden in the short for women - what exactly are the grounds for it I really don't know (are they known??). Theoretically, it could be about protecting particularly young skaters from training physically hard stuff before they're fully developed.

However, just about anyone who follows the sport knows this is not happening. And women particularly have started to do ultra-cs younger and younger. It is also happening to a certain extent with boys, but unlike girls, boys tend to be able to maintain and even learn new jumps after they reach their adult height and form. Women very rarely manage to keep their quads after puberty - there are so far 3 good quads by women older than 17 years of age. It remains to be seen whether the current girls can change this.

At the moment, if you don't look at what is happening in Russia, very few women, juniors and seniors, are attempting quads. There were 13 quad attempts internationally last season by 5 skaters, only one in the seniors. Who would try quads in the short?

ADD: The rule change would be for senior women since juniors cannot do quads in the short. In the 2022-23 season when age limit was changed there were six senior women who attempted quads in the world. Of these two got fully-rotated and GOE+ jumps - Samodelkina and Petrosyan. In 2023-24, there were three senior women who attempted quads and again and only Petrosyan got any good ones. The same in 2024-25. (The other two are Safonova and Sumiyoshi.)

This season, the seniors in Russia will also include Akatyeva, Gorbacheva and Sadkova who have a less stellar quad record than Petrosyan. But let's see where they are when they start to show their form. No additions in the international front, Sumiyoshi and Safonova maybe continue (Rion has already started) and they are even worse than the Russian women. Well, Samodelkina, but will she be able to get her ultra-cs back?

So maybe not really great pressure to change things?

What could be changed is junior girls having to do a 3A combo in the short when boys can do just a single 3A. That is just stupid.

 

[gkelly]

It feels a little funny that quads are forbidden in the short for women - what exactly are the grounds for it I really don't know (are they known??). Theoretically, it could be about protecting particularly young skaters from training physically hard stuff before they're fully developed.

I don't think it's so much about actively forbidding quads, but rather not making it a priority to actively change SP rules that have been around for decades to now start allowing them.

I.e., it's not that they have a specific reason to forbid short program quads. But rather that they don't have a specific reason to allow them.

If a good enough reason comes along and convinces enough of the decision makers, they'll change the rules. Meanwhile, the status quo remains.

However, just about anyone who follows the sport knows this is not happening. And women particularly have started to do ultra-cs younger and younger. It is also happening to a certain extent with boys, but unlike girls, boys tend to be able to maintain and even learn new jumps after they reach their adult height and form. Women very rarely manage to keep their quads after puberty - there are so far 3 good quads by women older than 17 years of age. It remains to be seen whether the current girls can change this.

Valid point.
If quads were to be allowed in women's short programs, it would start with senior women's short programs. And so far there have not been dozens of women doing quads, especially with the recent senior age changes.

What could be changed is junior girls having to do a 3A combo in the short when boys can do just a single 3A. That is just stupid.

Have there more junior women doing 3A (in free skates and in SP combinations) in recent years than there were
junior men doing 3A in those places ca. 2008, the last year before junior men were allowed to triple their solo SP axel?

Remember also that the SP jump rules for junior women do not even require any triples at all. It is perfectly legal for junior women to skate legal short programs with only doubles, with the double axel as the hardest jump. For the majority of junior women around the world (but, obviously, not the majority of those who challenge for top spots on the JGP and at Junior Worlds), only doubles or an easier triple in the combo but double of the required solo jump is challenge enough.

 

[Mathematician]

I do not want quads in women's SP. It would be tragic to the sport.

The FS is volatile enough with them.

I think leaving SP quadless allows the girls who jump quads to prove themselves without them and demonstrate they aren't one tricks but have artistry, spins, sequences, PCS, etc...

They already have a 3A to fairly reward the skaters who are ahead of the pack technically. Its especially fair because it requires extra talent to jump both 3A and quads since they are very different techniques.

Right now we have the perfect balance requiring all of the girls to be well rounded. As it is said you can lose the tournament in the SP. That means if a girl has to drop a beautiful SP to win a tournament, and the SP has no quads, then nobody can take away what a girl who jumps quads accomplishes in winning an event since she competed on their level in the SP and still won.

If you allow quads in the SP, the field will truly turn into the strawman some have created about ladies' quadsters in that they just hail Mary into quadruples and gamble a win every other event while crutching on the BV of a failed yet rotated quad. Very few senior women have stable quads. It makes the FS exciting and makes it that much more special when a girl flawlessly jumps 3+ ultra-c in a program and stuns the world with a seasonal record. However at the same time, we often get programs which would otherwise be gorgeous starting off with a fall, which ruins the impression and also demotivates the skater. Its a perfect balance as is, but if you introduce the same dynamic to the SP, it will be a disaster IMO.

Maybe in a few years if this new generation (Bazyluk, Streltsova, Kostyleva) maintain the incredible consistency, we can consider quads in the SP since we will have a reasonable amount of consistent, clean quad performances. For now though, I think only Adeliia and Sadkova have stable quads in seniors. The latter is not even that stable. It is not worth it yet at all. It would just be a wash for one skater. Wouldn't even be interesting. They would basically change the rules specifically to buff one skater who already has an enormous advantage, while also taking away her opportunity to prove herself without quads. Its literally a lose-lose for everybody.

 

[eppen]

It is always a bit difficult to make comparisons btw different periods of skating - the early IJS was brutal to bad jumps and skaters tended to try their best jumps only, but for the junior men there were 18 skaters who tried 3As at international competitions in the short for 2005-06 to 2007-08. The same for the past 3 seasons for women is ony 3, but it would be higher if the Russians could compete internationally. There are 20 who have tried 3As in the short and most of them are Russian.

Yeah, and I forgot that the jump requirements for the short even for senior women are considerably lower than for men. Maybe for a reason.

 

[Skating91]

The 3A is the most overvalued jump element in skating, and it's value becomes even more outsized in a short program.

If they don't want to open up the SP to quads, then maybe have a rule where a skater that includes a quad must jump a 2A, if a skater jumps or attempts a 3A they can't attempt a quad.

I don't really understand any argument against a quad in a short program when a 4T is only 1.5 points more than a 3A, but the 3A is 2.1 more than a 3Lz. Makes no sense right, unless there are other reasons for maintaining the status quo if you understand me

 

[Yuna Luna]

The data available is basically videos on YT, online rink-side reports from fans, some fs history sites etc. And the online data often also disappears. Some of the sites I used in the late 2010s when I started collecting quads have since vanished.

My count from 1983 to end of 1997-98 is 136 attempts - this includes also Bonaly. 124 without Bonaly. 30 skaters altogether. About 47 of those attempts were cleanish, looked/reportedly fully-rotated and were otherwise ok. 15 skaters behind the good attempts. There are probably some domestic attempts that we cannot know about, particularly Russia and China, maybe also USA and Canada, and the actual tally is probably higher.

Thank you this is so helpful!! I’m guessing most of those 15 men who landed a quad were seniors - do you have a list of who they were? Sorry for asking a lot but do you also happen to know how many women have done the 3A until now? I’m just curious how it compares to quad jumpers!

I don't think it's so much about actively forbidding quads, but rather not making it a priority to actively change SP rules that have been around for decades to now start allowing them.

I.e., it's not that they have a specific reason to forbid short program quads. But rather that they don't have a specific reason to allow them.

I wish there was a clearer criterion. Because for example when the triple axel was allowed in the women’s short there were hardly any women doing it (just one to be exact and her attempts were mostly unsuccessful but they still changed the rules). So it feels like these decisions are arbitrary as quite a few women have landed a quad by now.

 

[gkelly]

Thank you this is so helpful!! I’m guessing most of those 15 men who landed a quad were seniors - do you have a list of who they were? Sorry for asking a lot but do you also happen to know how many women have done the 3A until now? I’m just curious how it compares to quad jumpers!

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_jump)

As of March 2025, 27 female figure skaters have completed a ratified triple Axel (with positive GOE for those performed under the new judging system). After Midori Ito first performed it in 1988 and then Tonya Harding in 1991, over 10 years passed before more female skaters started performing it, starting with Yukari Nakano and Ludmila Nelidina, and then Mao Asada (the first one to land three triple Axels in one competition), Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Rika Kihira, and Mirai Nagasu.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_jump#cite_note-25"><span>[</span>25<span>]</span></a> Since then, Alysa Liu, Alena Kostornaia, Young You, Kamila Valieva, Wakaba Higuchi, Hana Yoshida, Rinka Watanabe, Anastasiia Shabotova, Varvara Kisel, Mana Kawabe, Sofia Akateva, Amber Glenn, Mao Shimada, Inga Gurgenidze, Ami Nakai, Yu-seong Kim Yu-jae Kim, Sophie Joline Von Felton, and Hana Bath have landed the jump successfully in international competition.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_jump#cite_note-26"><span>[</span>26<span>]</span></a> Most recently, Alexa Gasparotto landed the jump at the 2025 Maria Olszewska Memorial, but it received a negative Grade of Execution.

I wish there was a clearer criterion.

Yes, it would be nice.
But should the ISU come up with guidelines now to set parameters for how to decide when to increase jump content in short programs (separately for seniors and juniors, women and men) in the future, without knowing how the sport will develop not only in terms of jumps but also in terms of everything they want to emphasize in other skills and overall performance?
Should those guidelines also include rules for when to increase the minimum requirements as well as the maximum content allowed?
What kind of guidelines would you set now to address adding jump content in the future, whether any particular criterion might be met by 2026 or not till 2036 or later?

Because for example when the triple axel was allowed in the women’s short there were hardly any women doing it (just one to be exact and her attempts were mostly unsuccessful but they still changed the rules).

Well, Yukari Nakano had also been doing it as recently as 2008 and hadn't officially retired while they were initially having the conversation in 2010, even if she had by the time of the actual vote at the 2010 ISU Congress.
Most of the other skaters who had been trying it in the 2000s, in practice or unsuccessfully in competition, were also Japanese.

But I agree, it did seem unnecessary to make that change at that time, given the state of 3A attempts in the women's field at the time.

So it feels like these decisions are arbitrary as quite a few women have landed a quad by now.

It may feel like that.

But again, I think it's not so much a decision as a lack of decision.
I.e., there has been no sense of urgency on the part of the ISU to change the current longstanding rules. I don't know if there has even been much discussion at all about SP quads. If it hasn't been a priority to discuss, then there's no decision to be made.

 

[Mathematician]

The 3A is the most overvalued jump element in skating, and it's value becomes even more outsized in a short program.

If they don't want to open up the SP to quads, then maybe have a rule where a skater that includes a quad must jump a 2A, if a skater jumps or attempts a 3A they can't attempt a quad.

I don't really understand any argument against a quad in a short program when a 4T is only 1.5 points more than a 3A, but the 3A is 2.1 more than a 3Lz. Makes no sense right, unless there are other reasons for maintaining the status quo if you understand me

Yea but the argument isn't about value its about program quality. It should and will be allowed in the future. I dont see the field as being ready yet. The juniors are but the seniors aren't. Don't you enjoy how the SP is now? Sophisticated and clean? Adding quads will just have half of them demoralized from their opening fall and hyper-focused on that one element. Think about it this way: do you remember Kamila's last season? She kept attempting a quad in the FS and didn't land it once. Her SP was marvelous and really exhibited how unparalleled she is by certain metrics, but if she was bombing it by falling on a 4T at the start every time like the FS it would ruin the impression. Gorbacheva and Sadkova are similar in this regard. Their SPs demonstrate their incredible dancing. If they opened up with a failed quad it would be terrible! Look at how Dzepka broke down at test skates as well. Imagine that were the case in her incredible SP. Her quad is clearly a total gamble. No thank you!

I don't think the "status quo" will suffer one way or another. The gap between certain skaters is still like 30-50 points. There's no hiding that even by keeping quads out of the SP. Even in the AAA era the female category was basically split into two different disciplines without quads in the SP. The people that deny the gap won't deny a 100 point gap any less.

But should the ISU come up with guidelines now to set parameters for how to decide when to increase jump content in short programs (separately for seniors and juniors, women and men) in the future, without knowing how the sport will develop not only in terms of jumps but also in terms of everything they want to emphasize in other skills and overall performance?
Should those guidelines also include rules for when to increase the minimum requirements as well as the maximum content allowed?
What kind of guidelines would you set now to address adding jump content in the future, whether any particular criterion might be met by 2026 or not till 2036 or later?

I don't think you can possibly standardize that. Especially considering "in terms of everything they want to emphasize in other skills and overall performance". Too multifaceted. If you get a season with multiple girls consistently cleaning up the FS with quads, its time to level up. That is not happening right now. Well, it is in juniors, but not in seniors, and leveling up the juniors without the seniors would be terrible optics.

 

[eppen]

Thank you this is so helpful!! I’m guessing most of those 15 men who landed a quad were seniors - do you have a list of who they were? Sorry for asking a lot but do you also happen to know how many women have done the 3A until now? I’m just curious how it compares to quad jumpers!

Barna, Browning, Gastellu, Goebel, Guo, Honda, Kostin, Kulik, Liu, Plushenko, Stojko, Urmanov, Walia, Yagudin, Zhang. Guo and Goebel jumped good quads as juniors. Internation junior skating really took off only after this period when the JGP was established in 1997-98, so again it is difficult to compare the situation to what happens now.

As it happens I do know something about women and 3As... 141 women have so far attempted 3As in competition. This is from 1984 when Midori Ito attempted it the first time in the NHK Trophy. About 40 women have attempted both a quad/quads and 3A in competition.

It is worth looking at how the requirements have changed over time and Skate Guard blog has collected the 6.0 era short program requirements into a blog: https://www.skateguardblog.com/2025/02/short-program-required-elements.html

Thinking of the jump development timeline, both the 3A and quad became allowed in the short for men in the 1998-1999 season. The first clean 3A is fom 1978 and the quad from 1988. Men - and some women - had done 3As in the short in combination before that.

 

[gkelly]

Barna, Browning, Gastellu, Goebel, Guo, Honda, Kostin, Kulik, Liu, Plushenko, Stojko, Urmanov, Walia, Yagudin, Zhang. Guo and Goebel jumped good quads as juniors. Internation junior skating really took off only after this period when the JGP was established in 1997-98, so again it is difficult to compare the situation to what happens now.

My count from 1983 to end of 1997-98 is 136 attempts - this includes also Bonaly. 124 without Bonaly. 30 skaters altogether. About 47 of those attempts were cleanish, looked/reportedly fully-rotated and were otherwise ok. 15 skaters behind the good attempts. There are probably some domestic attempts that we cannot know about, particularly Russia and China, maybe also USA and Canada, and the actual tally is probably higher.

Barna, Browning, Gastellu, Goebel, Guo, Honda, Kostin, Kulik, Liu, Plushenko, Stojko, Urmanov, Walia, Yagudin, Zhang. Guo and Goebel jumped good quads as juniors. Internation junior skating really took off only after this period when the JGP was established in 1997-98, so again it is difficult to compare the situation to what happens now.

Had Chengjiang Li landed any successful quads as of the end of 1998 season? He certainly had it in his repertoire in 1999. And there were certainly others who added it that year.

For "cleanish" in the sense of standing up without major disruption, but perhaps underrotated and/or with touchdowns, but not bad to a casual viewer as opposed to an expert, I'd also include Sabovcik, Boitano, Michael Weiss (only domestically as of that date?) -- no worse than Barna's in Albertville. (But had Barna done it cleaner elsewhere?)

 

[eppen]

The question was about who got clean ones before the quad was allowed in the short, so I looked to the end of 1997-98. I have recorded for the pre IJS jumps a verbal description of any mistakes that might have occurred based on videos or other data available. I excluded falls, the ones that were deemed/visibly clearly underrotated, hand(s) down, major step-outs, turns at the ends etc. The ones deemed clean/cleanish in my list are already fairly good or very good jumps :-D

Barna did a clean one in Nations Cup 1989 according to media reports and might have gotten a cleanish one already in the 1988 worlds.

Chengjiang Li started in 1998-99 - probably did them domestically before but China...

Boitano tried four times in competition - fell once, twice hand down with a stepout and the last was twofooted with a stepout. I would not include him.

Sabovcik I was thinking about and the only attempt he got looks way better than any of Boitano's of Weiss's, so could be included. It did merit weeks of observation by the ISU after all...

Weiss had 7 attempts by the end of 1997-98 - four were international. One was a fall. The rest were so clearly twofooted that it is hard to regard them as even cleanish compared to the ones mentioned already. So a no to Weiss also.