2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Shayuki]

if we compare last Junior to first Senior competition, indeed Zhenya increased with 7.95 compared to Alina's 5.31.
However, in her first senior season, Zhenya 's scores increased with 5.18 - gradually from 67.16 to 72.34.
Alina's - with 7.51 from 67.52 to 75.03 with very sharp jump after the GPF - with 4.88/ 4.6 for EC/ OG compared to GPF; after that she never achieved such PCs.

What?

Zagitova's indeed was 67.52 but Medvedeva's PCS in her first competition was 58.40.

 

[icestorm]

Mind you that there is no single mention in the rules that consistency and momentum and medals earned at previous events should automatically guarantee higher components even with simpler choreography.

I didn't say that consistency and momentum and medals earned at previous events should automatically guarantee anything. I said Higuchi didn't win anything because she was not good enough. Zagitova was.

The whole "Higuchi who couldn't win anything in her career is not a paragon of PCS" perhaps is the best reflection of how wrong is the way these scores are given.

These scores were given according to reality. Can't see nothing wrong with it.

I mentioned that program cause even looking back, i think especially in terms of choreography Wakaba's 17-18 FS is one of the bests in years of Ladies Figure Skating and very underappreciated just because like you said she didn't have gold medals going in.

Not much people can recall Wakaba's 17-18 FS. Zagitova's 17-18 FS is one of the most memorable programs in the history of the figure skating.

 

[Mawwerg]

1) it's a junior program with an added frontloaded choreo sequence, that for me was an issue to begin with: there should be a big enough differentiation in skating quality between seniors and juniors otherwise why separating the two categories. Transitioning into senior with a reworked junior program was a bad look in my opinion (not the judges obviously)

I think it's quite clear there are two groups of juniors - first one is separated from seniors by skill and the second one by age. So when skaters from the second group enter senior competitions they are successful there.

 

[flanker]

Well the difference is you only did math, without even considering what is the program anyway,

Actually I said:

Second, through the GP events, Alina's PCS rose normally as her performance got better. Big increase was just between GPF and Europeans, and completely deservedly, because the quality Alina has shown there and at Olympics a month later was astounding from the perspective of interpretation, perfect tempo synchronized completely with the music, expression etc.

I am completely aware of what makes programs distinguished (even thoughnot every time recognized by judges).

which was my main issue with the free (the short was fine):

1) 67 pts in components is a lot at the first event of the season in the senior debut. 5 pts between GPF and Europeans in a matter of what? 6 weeks?

It's actually you who is doing just the math and not considering the performance itself at all. The quality of the performance at Europeans (and olympics) was way higher than at GPF.

2) it's a junior program with an added frontloaded choreo sequence, that for me was an issue to begin with: there should be a big enough differentiation in skating quality between seniors and juniors otherwise why separating the two categories. Transitioning into senior with a reworked junior program was a bad look in my opinion (not the judges obviously)

Nothing like junior or program, rather junior or senior interpretation. It's nothing "juniorsish" in Alina's performances at the competitions you try to slander now.

BTW it's not an isolated case when a program from junior season becomes a program in senior season (just look at Aliona's SP, though nobody has ther impudence to call it "junior program").

3) For a program based on a ballet theme, there are a lot of unrefined rushed movements in that program and the hunch during crossovers, not a lot of flow and speed during the steps sequence when ballet is about fully extended positions, and straight posture.

4) Transitions in between the jumps are very lacking due to the backloading (which is only half acceptable as an excuse cause we saw from the same group, other backloaded programs with more transitions): she has like one split jump into the 3sal and one rocker into the 2a, that's mostly it.

In your world. It's more like an attempt to score paintings or compositions. Musical critics, speaking as figure skating fans, would look like this: "In my book early Mozart's works are too juniorish compared to Haydn's late ones, I give only 6.5 out of 10" or something like that

In the end i think most of that PCS rise from to the backloading and consistency, the novelty that made some of these jumps effective cause they were in sequence basically and the 10% bonus on all of them.

Contrary to you, I can't speak for the judges and can't say what precisely made them to rise Alina's PCS. I can, on the other hand, say, that Alina's improvement in performance of the program, interpretation and obvious self-confidence (which always adds much to the program) is undeniable, which is basically what I've quoted above. As was said, ALina's olympic skate is totally distinct, one of a kind, not interchangeable with anything before and after (in a best sense of the word). I'm sorry to say it but I've never seen Wakaba's from time to time (not only in relation to the olympic season) claimed uniqueness.

If we go back to "doing the math", than Alina's PCS score raised for 20 % between junior worlds and olympics, which more or less fits my impression of the two performances seen SBS, if the impression can be converted into numbers. Similarly we could compare Alina's performance with other performances of the 23rd of february, which, in fact, would the most relevant thing. From that point I can say that her performance from the point of components was one of the two best of the day, and if you would like to see the components somewhere around 70 or wherever, than other components should be reduced the same way, incl. the highest one. There still can be 2.44 difference, if you like, but than I give Alina 70 and 72.44 to Zhenya.

I hope this is the last comment about the story that is returned by certain people back over and over again about how "long time ago in a Galaxy far away the wrong russian girl won the olympics" (at least in 2019/2020 RLT season).

 

[Jeanie19]

What?

Zagitova's indeed was 67.52 but Medvedeva's PCS in her first competition was 58.40.

Don't count Nepela competition competition that competition that year had computer issues, read the thread about that competition that year. Apples to Apples start with Skate America. 67.16.

 

[mdl]

For me Zhenya’s 38.4 and 77.5 for PCS in Olympics was ridiculous. What about them?



What are you talking about? Zhenya's PCS increased in her first senior season from 58.4 to 72.34 in just 2 months. This is a world record that will probably be eternal. In the Olympic season PCS grows in all skaters. It's normal that Alina no longer achieved 75 points for PCS. Alina fully deserved PCS she received at the Olympics for her amazing programs and outstanding performances. I don’t understand why people here belittle Alina's excellence demonstrated at the Olympics?

If you are referring to Ondrej Nepela 2015, she did mistakes in that program. In such situation for a just become senior competitor, skating an entirely new program, is difficult to keep good PCS in the very first competition. That comes with experience.
Alina at the same time had her previous season to become accustomed and completely comfortable with her LP.


Anyway, that does not exclude the big jump in Alina’s PCS scores for 2 competitions only, Euros and OG, scores, that she never reached again.

 

[mdl]

First Zhena's senior season wasn't the olympic one, right? Zhenya and Alina even didn't compete each other at 2015/2016 season, right? It's unworthy to create a "complot" about "they wanted Alina to win" by comparing Zhenya's PCS from 2016 Worlds with Alina's 2018 Olympics. On the other hand, for the olympic free skate Zhenya has received 77.47 points in PCS, 2.44 point more than Alina. You can believe in fairy tales about who "should have won", the fact is their chances were pretty equal.

As for Alina's postolympic PCS, for the worlds 2019 FS Alina received 74.26 and 74.96 for Nebelhorn 2018 (also 74.23 for JO 2018), which is perfectly in the reach of her 75.03 for the olympic free skate (and remember that the system was changed). And again, if one of the pillars of your speculations is that "after that she never achieved such PCS", even Zhenya didn't receive "such PCS" after the olympic FS (worlds 2019 72.97, for instance, so the slump is much more significant than with constantly denigrated Alina).

All in all, you overslept two years with complaining about who should have won 2018 olympics.

where do you see I complain?

It was not me that brought up the comparison between the first seasons of post juniors Alina and Zhenya as sort of reasoning, what i did is to develop and to bring figures, which speak for themselves.
Yes, Alina almost reached this PCS in 2 competitions in her second season, never reached completely or improved.
Zhenya in her second season improved her scores from the first season

 

[Tolstoj]

Actually I said:

I am completely aware of what makes programs distinguished (even thoughnot every time recognized by judges).

It's actually you who is doing just the math and not considering the performance itself at all. The quality of the performance at Europeans (and olympics) was way higher than at GPF.

I edited that comment few minutes after i posted it (my apologies), it's from an hour ago, so maybe next time it would be nice to re-read those comments.

I stand by my opinion that it shouldn't be about the math, but even if you consider that the rise in components were very big, the biggest coincidentally at the Europeans held in Moscow, even though it was a better performance i'd give you that. (but what she did at Cup of China was not better than Higuchi in my opinion)

Nothing like junior or program, rather junior or senior interpretation. It's nothing "juniorsish" in Alina's performances at the competitions you try to slander now.

BTW it's not an isolated case when a program from junior season becomes a program in senior season (just look at Aliona's SP, though nobody has ther impudence to call it "junior program").

In your world. It's more like an attempt to score paintings or compositions. Musical critics, speaking as figure skating fans, would look like this: "In my book early Mozart's works are too juniorish compared to Haydn's late ones, I give only 6.5 out of 10" or something like that

I did mention specifics areas lacking in that program tho, it's not all because "it's coming from junior", but more like those contents were junior level in my opinion.

The lack of flow in the steps sequence, the lack of transitions in between the jumps, the messy posture during crossovers for a supposedly balletic program. I don't see the counter argument to this besides "looks good to me", which is just subjective and that's ok.

I didn't say that consistency and momentum and medals earned at previous events should automatically guarantee anything. I said Higuchi didn't win anything because she was not good enough. Zagitova was.

You did implied that higher PCS were justified by the momentum going in

"And since then Higuchi who couldn't win anything in her career is a paragon of PCS? She was just regular second year senior. Zagitova was JWC and in her first senior season won more golden medals than Higuchi in her all seasons."

Components should not be judged by the number of medals you win, as it's not present in the criteria.

Contrary to you, I can't speak for the judges and can't say what precisely made them to rise Alina's PCS. I can, on the other hand, say, that Alina's improvement in performance of the program, interpretation and obvious self-confidence (which always adds much to the program) is undeniable, which is basically what I've quoted above. As was said, ALina's olympic skate is totally distinct, one of a kind, not interchangeable with anything before and after (in a best sense of the word). I'm sorry to say it but I've never seen Wakaba's from time to time (not only in relation to the olympic season) claimed uniqueness.

Not much people can recall Wakaba's 17-18 FS. Zagitova's 17-18 FS is one of the most memorable programs in the history of the figure skating.

I did recall italian and german commentators being a bit angry at those scores at Cup of China thinking Wakaba should have won there.

Wakaba's FS from Worlds is actually a very memorable program many figure skating fans remember (maybe not russians idk), obviously Olympics bring more exposure to a performance, let alone the gold medal which is a big reason why Zagitova's FS is more watched and recognized.

However much like the absolutely nonsensical argument that gold medals makes a program more artistic, i also don't agree that a more watched program is automatically more artistic.

 

[mdl]

What?

Zagitova's indeed was 67.52 but Medvedeva's PCS in her first competition was 58.40.

already commented above on that point.

 

[Alex65]

.... more watched program is automatically more artistic.

Return Sasha her PCS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ZSHKUSwyc

 

[surimi]

Not much people can recall Wakaba's 17-18 FS. Zagitova's 17-18 FS is one of the most memorable programs in the history of the figure skating.

Speak for yourself. I doubt you've done any actual research I'm not happy that Wakaba was brought into the Russian ladies thread and realize it was not you who brought her up, but sheesh, the way you speak of Wakaba one would think she was a B tier skater.

 

[icestorm]

Speak for yourself. I doubt you've done any actual research I'm not happy that Wakaba was brought into the Russian ladies thread and realize it was not you who brought her up, but sheesh, the way you speak of Wakaba one would think she was a B tier skater.

I think she IS a B tier skater with below ordinary jump content (forget about tano or rippon, repeating 3T in FS!), with pretty poor spins, slow on StSq, with stereotyped choreography, running from one telegraphed jump to another.

 

[TallyT]

I think she IS a B tieter skater with below ordinary jump content (forget about tano or rippon, repeating 3T in FS!), with pretty poor spins, stereotyped choreography, running from one telegraphed jump to another.

With all due respect, you seem to made only three posts in all for the sole purpose of bashing a Japanese skater in the unrelated Russian ladies' thread. Any reason why?

 

[icestorm]

You did implied that higher PCS were justified by the momentum going in

Plz don't tell me what I did imply. I explicitly told you what I did imply.

 

[icestorm]

With all due respect, you seem to made only three posts in all for the sole purpose of bashing a Japanese skater in the unrelated Russian ladies' thread. Any reason why?

Do you mean this thread is for bashing Russian skaters and praising Japanese ones, and I should keep silence reading such things here? Didn't know that.

 

[TallyT]

Do you mean this thread is for bashing Russian skaters and praising Japanese ones, and I should keep silence reading such things here? Didn't know that.

No, this thread is for discussing the Russian ladies, and in case you are not aware, Wakaba is not Russian.

 

[macy]

Do you mean this thread is for bashing Russian skaters and praising Japanese ones, and I should keep silence reading such things here? Didn't know that.

there is no place for Japanese skaters in a thread about Russian ladies. if you would like to discuss your opinion on Wakaba's skating, please take it to the Japanese ladies thread.

bashing any skater is also not allowed on the forum, which you have already done in your first five posts ever here.

 

[icestorm]

No, this thread is for discussing the Russian ladies, and in case you are not aware, Wakaba is not Russian.

It was not me who brought Higuchi in this thread, describing how bad Zagitova is in comparison with Higuchi. So I can't see why I can't express the opposite opinion.

 

[renebaebae]

For me Zhenya’s 38.4 and 77.5 for PCS in Olympics was ridiculous. What about them?



What are you talking about? Zhenya's PCS increased in her first senior season from 58.4 to 72.34 in just 2 months. This is a world record that will probably be eternal. In the Olympic season PCS grows in all skaters. It's normal that Alina no longer achieved 75 points for PCS. Alina fully deserved PCS she received at the Olympics for her amazing programs and outstanding performances. I don’t understand why people here belittle Alina's excellence demonstrated at the Olympics?

I don't know why people keep putting words in my mouth. I am not making this a Zhenya vs Alina debate. I am simply saying that Alina did not deserve the sudden PCS jump in just ONE competition and right before the Olympics. Alina performed the same program the entire season and very conveniently right before Olympics is when the judges thought she suddenly needed a boost in PCS points with about 4.5 points. As I was saying in my original comment, the judges can decide to give anyone they want the PCS points they need to win and they would get away with it because people would still jump through hoops to justify it. They saw it happen in the previous Olympics without any consequences so why would they stop.

 

[macy]

i do think timing and luck was very much on Alina's side in her senior debut season. being the olympic season absolutely helped her PCS shoot up, Zhenya lost her Russian national and Euro crowns to Alina while she was off injured and she had huge momentum going into the olympics. i think things would have looked a little different if it were a non olympic season.