Rescoring of 2010 Olympics

[gkelly]

I think it is clear that the specific Scale of Values in effect each season has a significant impact on placements, and that individual judges or tech panels are not really in a position to rank the skaters overall by fine-grain manipulations of the parts of the scoring they do have control over.

 

[Blades of Passion]

So, with all the correct factoring and such, final standings from this judging panel is actually:

1. Takahashi
2. Lysacek
3. Plushenko (would drop behind Weir by .01 point if his SP spin were to be called Level 3)
4. Weir
5. Chan (could be in 3rd if it was decided the Level 1 call on his SP combo spin was incorrect)
6. Kozuka
7. Lambiel
8. Oda

Lambiel dropping from 3rd to 7th after the right numbers are inserted, heh! That's the correct placement for him though, good to see it came out like that. Sad for Kozuka to be down there lower now, but Weir also jumped up, it was disappointing to originally see him in 7th.

I think it is clear that the specific Scale of Values in effect each season has a significant impact on placements, and that individual judges or tech panels are not really in a position to rank the skaters overall by fine-grain manipulations of the parts of the scoring they do have control over.

Nah, if you are actively trying to get the result you want, you will get it. It just requires further separating of those GOE and PCS marks for the skaters. The Scale of Values definitely has an impact on "regular" judging though. The rules were probably at their overall best in the 2014-2015 season. We had good base values and +GOE values for jumps/footwork at that time, and mistakes on Quads were at least a little harsher than they had been the previous season, footwork rules were a little less restrictive than they are currently, and although the ability to fully backload programs was in the rules at the time, people weren't yet being so completely unbalanced about it.

 

[ladyjane]

I have been looking at the scores in a slightly different way. I noticed first of all that despite me not being in any way knowledgeable about judging GOE and PCS (in fact kolyadafan2002 had to point out to me some mistaken decimals before I got it right) my scores didn't stand out particularly among the others: sometimes stricter, sometimes comparable, sometimes more generous. Slightly lower in the PCS scores in most cases, but not always.

Secondly I noticed there were only 2 elements by 2 different skaters who got the same GOE score across the board (all the 'judges' gave the same score), both in the Free Skate. There were a few more examples of all GOE scores being the same but one. No such agreement at all took place among the PCS scores.

Lastly I would like to thank kolyadafan2002 for setting this exercise up, and handling all our quibbles, whether it's about factoring, presumed wrong calls or participants who turned out to be rather lacking in knowledge. I enjoyed participating, and thought it was fun to do.

 

[ranjake]

This was really fun to read; thanks to all of our judges for their hard work

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So the final standings (without manipulating the tech calls) are:

1 Lysacek (259.31)
2 Takahashi (258.36)
3 Plushenko (249.60)
4 Weir (248.71)
5 Chan (248.33)
6 Kozuka (244.63)
7 Lambiel (243.52)
8 Oda (240.11)

Lysacek still wins, edging out Takahashi for gold (which in retrospect, it would have been controversial if Takahashi with a fall beat a clean Lysacek and a clean Plushenko with quads in both programs, even though Takahashi's presentation was generally agreed as better -- we gave him way more of a PCS buffer than the judges in 2010 did though). Plushenko is almost 10 points back of gold now (lower PCS being a significant contributor) and hangs on for bronze. Tight race for bronze, and that's quite a drop for Lambiel (his PCS was still high, but we were much tougher on his GOE than the judges were).

 

[Ziotic]

So the final standings are:

1 Lysacek (259.31)
2 Takahashi (258.36)
3 Plushenko (249.60)
4 Weir (248.71)
5 Chan (248.33)
6 Kozuka (244.63)
7 Lambiel (243.52)
8 Oda (240.11)

Lysacek edges out Takahashi for gold (which is probably fine because it would have been controversial if Takahashi with a fall beat a clean Lysacek and a clean Plushenko with quads in both programs). Plushenko is almost 10 points back of gold now and hangs on for bronze. Tight race for bronze, and that's quite a drop for Lambiel (we were much tougher on his GOE than the judges were).

I mentioned earlier that I felt some were gifted marks. I was specifically referring to Lambiel. I felt he was so sloppy and I was expecting so much more based on reputation.

I also found Weir quite slow compared to others. The lace drama was quite a shame as was the silly time violation that Chan got. Not that time violations are silly but more it’s something to address before the Olympics.

While I know some are salty about Lysacek I didn’t really have an issue with his win. Although I much preferred his short program.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I also found Weir quite slow compared to others.

Depends on exactly which others we are talking about here, he certainly wasn’t the fastest out there, but I found his edge quality and overall stroking to be excellent. His steps had more consideration for quality than Lysacek/Plushenko for sure.

So the final standings (without manipulating the tech calls) are:

LOL, "manipulating". Lysacek's footwork in the LP factually did not meet the requirements to receive a Level 4 call. That alone drops him below Takahashi; don't even need to get into discussion about Takahashi's jump combo being called incorrectly, to his detriment. He still wins even with that bad call thrown on him.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

D
LOL, "manipulating". Lysacek's footwork in the LP factually did not meet the requirements to receive a Level 4 call. That alone drops him below Takahashi; don't even need to get into discussion about Takahashi's jump combo being called incorrectly, to his detriment. He still wins even with that bad call thrown on him.

If we're going to come for people's footwork, Takahashi's CiSt4 (while brilliantly performed) arguably should have been a CiSt3. His RBI (2:34) and LFO (2:39) loops were not properly executed (the exit edge on his RFI-RBI counter at 2:42 wasn't exactly textbook either), which would remove the Complexity feature of executing 5 turns in both directions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6AnaTmyarg

 

[Blades of Passion]

That first loop was certainly completed, and while the second is debatable, he does another clean loop in the opposing direction of the first one, later in the sequence. There's no rule against going up towards the toepick for choreographic effect during a loop; he does a full turn on one foot without switching edge, the entry and exit are there. Loop turns are often boring and kill the cadence of footwork; being able to do them in a quick interwoven motion shouldn't be shunned. That counter turn you brought up was fine too; starting on a deep edge, not swapping over before the transfer, and exiting on the correct edge on one foot. Should be watching a better quality video, btw! I also never brought up the Level 2 call on Takahashi's last spin, it's very sketchy they didn't credit his pike sit position. He was in a good enough position for 2 rotations, particularly considering the pike positions from many other competitors (especially Plusenko) that got credit.

I was hoping for more discussion from people about the specifics of the programs that caused them to grade the PCS as they did, or individual elements. I could have been a bit more generous for Kozuka's PCS in the LP, his demure qualities sometimes make his actual skating seem less difficult than it is, and the drive and deep flowing edges and emotional authenticity in that performance impress me every time. He was also the only guy in the competition to land each type of different jump (considering "Quad" as a jump type). One example of an annoying CoP feature, though, is the edge change he had to do in that last spin to get a level 4; it makes the last part of the spin and final pose fall just a little out of step with the music. A good scratch spin like the one he did should count for level credit, bah.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Are we going to judge something else? Maybe a ladies competition? Worlds? eace:

 

[gkelly]

If you want to do an elite IJS competition, let me recommend an Olympic-year Worlds, since most of the scrutiny and controversy at the time, and therefore most memories, from those years would have gone to the Olympic competition instead.

 

[ladyjane]

If you want to do an elite IJS competition, let me recommend an Olympic-year Worlds, since most of the scrutiny and controversy at the time, and therefore most memories, from those years would have gone to the Olympic competition instead.

Hahaha, as long as it isn't 2018 Worlds men because that was a true splatfest. Except for the winner, I think everybody had at least one fall, and most had more. The 2018 Pairs competition was much better (except for Julianne Séginn and Charlie Bilodeau who had one of the worst skates of their partnership). The Ladies event wasn't fantastic either, although Carolina had a great short and both Kaetlyn Osmond's and Wakaba Higuchi's Free skates were something else.

 

[4everchan]

Pairs Olympics 2018 could be interesting....

Should S/M be placed lower after doubling the jump in the SP?
Should Sui/Han be punished a bit more in the LP for a program that was tentative and with mistakes?
Did D/R deserve to be higher than bronze considering their execution of very difficult elements ?
What about the rest of the top 8? They were all so good except for T/M's LP.

I don't know if that would interest anyone, but I'd certainly would "watch"

 

[gkelly]

Pairs Olympics 2018 could be interesting....

Should S/M be placed lower after doubling the jump in the SP?
Should Sui/Han be punished a bit more in the LP for a program that was tentative and with mistakes?
Did D/R deserve to be higher than bronze considering their execution of very difficult elements ?
What about the rest of the top 8? They were all so good except for T/M's LP.

If you're asking those kinds of questions before anyone starts judging, then you're not asking people to judge with an open mind. You're asking them to second-guess what the official panel did.

What is the point of these rescoring exercises?

 

[4everchan]

If you're asking those kinds of questions before anyone starts judging, then you're not asking people to judge with an open mind. You're asking them to second-guess what the official panel did.

What is the point of these rescoring exercises?

you are correct... anyways, i doubt anyone would want to do pairs and... i saw these comments a lot on GS... so that's why... i am perhaps making the false assumption that these questions are common knowledge since the event is not so far behind us.

 

[ladyjane]

you are correct... anyways, i doubt anyone would want to do pairs and... i saw these comments a lot on GS... so that's why... i am perhaps making the false assumption that these questions are common knowledge since the event is not so far behind us.

You've got a point here. I started the whole rejudging the 2010 OG because it was some time ago, and it was great fun to rewatch all those skates. The only thing I did remember was that I wasn't disappointed about the winner, or even nrs. 2 and 3, but that I didn't remember the programmes very well. Oh, and I remembered being a fan of Stephane and Daisuke. Less common knowledge so to speak because I remember the 2018 OG far too well. Especially the pairs. S/M would probably get even higher points for the FS than they did from me. Terribly biased because I just loved that FS!

 

[kolyadafan2002]

That first loop was certainly completed, and while the second is debatable, he does another clean loop in the opposing direction of the first one, later in the sequence. There's no rule against going up towards the toepick for choreographic effect during a loop; he does a full turn on one foot without switching edge, the entry and exit are there. Loop turns are often boring and kill the cadence of footwork; being able to do them in a quick interwoven motion shouldn't be shunned. That counter turn you brought up was fine too; starting on a deep edge, not swapping over before the transfer, and exiting on the correct edge on one foot. Should be watching a better quality video, btw! I also never brought up the Level 2 call on Takahashi's last spin, it's very sketchy they didn't credit his pike sit position. He was in a good enough position for 2 rotations, particularly considering the pike positions from many other competitors (especially Plusenko) that got credit.

I was hoping for more discussion from people about the specifics of the programs that caused them to grade the PCS as they did, or individual elements. I could have been a bit more generous for Kozuka's PCS in the LP, his demure qualities sometimes make his actual skating seem less difficult than it is, and the drive and deep flowing edges and emotional authenticity in that performance impress me every time. He was also the only guy in the competition to land each type of different jump (considering "Quad" as a jump type). One example of an annoying CoP feature, though, is the edge change he had to do in that last spin to get a level 4; it makes the last part of the spin and final pose fall just a little out of step with the music. A good scratch spin like the one he did should count for level credit, bah.

I'm surprised nobody's complained that Plushenko got 6's on some of his PCS categories. I do think that was a little stingy.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I gave the lowest Interpretation score of the panel, to Plushenko's SP. His very brusque presentation did not fit many parts of that music, and certainly did not come close to expressing all the layers of it. Some of the moves were a hideous misrepresentation, truly ugly spin positions and ravenous gestures that had no place being there, or a few clunky slow turns in the footwork that would kill the program for a moment.

Hahaha, as long as it isn't 2018 Worlds men because that was a true splatfest. Except for the winner, I think everybody had at least one fall

Among the last flight of skaters in the LP yes, it was a dumpster fire. Kazuki Tomono had a great competition though, should have been a Silver for him, but the judges were too busy giving 9's in PCS and inflated GOE's to garbage performances from bigger name skaters. Dmitri Aliev skated pretty well and was screwed over in the SP by his 3Toe being worth 0 points because of the rules, he deserved a medal really. Michal Brezina skated one of his best LP's too, coming back from the SP, that was nice to see.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That first loop was certainly completed, and while the second is debatable, he does another clean loop in the opposing direction of the first one, later in the sequence. There's no rule against going up towards the toepick for choreographic effect during a loop; he does a full turn on one foot without switching edge, the entry and exit are there. Loop turns are often boring and kill the cadence of footwork; being able to do them in a quick interwoven motion shouldn't be shunned. That counter turn you brought up was fine too; starting on a deep edge, not swapping over before the transfer, and exiting on the correct edge on one foot. Should be watching a better quality video, btw! I also never brought up the Level 2 call on Takahashi's last spin, it's very sketchy they didn't credit his pike sit position. He was in a good enough position for 2 rotations, particularly considering the pike positions from many other competitors (especially Plusenko) that got credit.

I was hoping for more discussion from people about the specifics of the programs that caused them to grade the PCS as they did, or individual elements. I could have been a bit more generous for Kozuka's PCS in the LP, his demure qualities sometimes make his actual skating seem less difficult than it is, and the drive and deep flowing edges and emotional authenticity in that performance impress me every time. He was also the only guy in the competition to land each type of different jump (considering "Quad" as a jump type). One example of an annoying CoP feature, though, is the edge change he had to do in that last spin to get a level 4; it makes the last part of the spin and final pose fall just a little out of step with the music. A good scratch spin like the one he did should count for level credit, bah.

Hmm, guess I'm more of a stickler for technique; we can agree to disagree. With loops you're supposed to have a clear loop pattern on the ice and the only one he does that with is his 3rd loop attempt. There are too many skaters who do loops (especially forward loops) incorrectly, giving up precision for the sake of performance and the loop is rushed. A loop is supposed to have the skater coming "back" in the opposite direction they are going, and if they don't do this, then the loop doesn't have its characteristic pattern and looks like a double-3 and you see an lowercase cursive 'r' on the ice. The "loop part" should ideally be about the size of the skater's blade, which were definitely not the case on the first two loops. As for "going up towards the toepick" for choreography, I don't buy that - that's not how loops are supposed to be executed - they are to be executed on the blade and then the ball of the skate and then back to the blade. Coming up onto the toepick or "scratching/skidding" a loop is incorrect technique and often happens when a skater tries to force a loop (which Takahashi did with the first two, especially that second one which for me isn't even debatable as improper execution). This video is a pretty good overview of correct vs. incorrect loop technique. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BlVhEKyCNs#t=1m45s And since it's the TECHNICAL panel's call, they should be focusing on proper TECHNIQUE, even if you or someone else might be more forgiving. Just because they were choreographically great, doesn't mean they were executed well - or even sufficient to call it as correctly executed. It's interesting that you denounce weak/unclear positions in spins but absolve poor turn techniques in the footwork. But, hey, everyone looks for different things and has their own level of leniency or pickiness.

 

[Blades of Passion]

There's nothing in the rules that say loops need to be a specific proportion to count. If it's a full one-foot turn without swapping edge that creates a circular tracing, it's a loop. He does go back in the direction he started and he's not trying to force the turn either. It's fluid and there's still a circle created on the ice on that first one (not so much on the second one, it's right to call that incomplete, but it's not a bad movement either; I'm pretty sure he was never trying to do that as a clear loop, looking at other performances of the program). Doing a loop with more speed and a tighter lobe is not poor technique, it's just different. Some people might only be capable of doing slower loops in a "traditional" motion, and would lose flow or balance if they tried it more aggressively or stylized.