Irina Slutskaya and Olympics 2002

[Thrashergurl]

Is Irina the only skater to Win Worlds Since 1996 or 97 Without a 3/3? I remember all the fuss about her 3/3’s, but hers were always sloppy, and often under rotated. I also don’t believe she landed one worlds.

 

[Skatesocs]

I had 1. Suguri 2. Kwan 3. Slutskaya at worlds. Lol. (... I'm also not sure about 2005, but that one's at least more of a technicality)

 

[David21]

Is Irina the only skater to Win Worlds Since 1996 or 97 Without a 3/3? I remember all the fuss about her 3/3’s, but hers were always sloppy, and often under rotated. I also don’t believe she landed one worlds.

Slutskaya landed clean 3-3 combinations at Worlds in 1997 and 2005. As for skaters who won Worlds without 3-3, you can look at Kwan only one year later than 2002 lol. Also, stating that Slutskaya's 3-3s were often underrotated when we are discussing an event in which the eventual Champion for some reason got credit for a rather poor attempt at 2.75-2.5 combination is highly ironic to say the least.

As for the current discussion about Slutskaya's spirals compared to Kwan etc, there's really no value in trying to add something useful. Statements like "Everyone knew that Kwan and Cohen had the spirals in the world" are useless, revisionistic propaganda which only show hows little that particular poster knows about figure skating.

 

[Skatesocs]

2.75 rotations in a 3S or 3T is awesome

 

[Skatesocs]

IDK if Kwan's Y position between changes of position is in itself a change of position... But I think it can be counted as a difficult step in between positions, like Slutskaya's step was (she didn't do that step while maintaining the leg up, she dropped it, did the step, then changed position).

One thing I'll say about some pre-CoP spirals is that they didn't look like what some might recognize as spiral sequences today. They were even called "spiral step sequence". I loved how Chen Lu used them, but would I say they're more than or equally difficult as Sasha Cohen's? IDK. I'd rather make a choregraphic and qualitative assessment there. If Kwan's gets a level 4 and is placed on the same level as Cohen's at say 2006 Olympics in terms base value, I'm not sure what to think of that. But I'd love to hear why I'm wrong!

Also, if people had a general idea of what things were worth in 6.0 why did we create a CoP where we end up with amazing calls like Asada's level 1s...? And why don't we still have proper base value for +3Lo

 

[Thrashergurl]

Slutskaya landed clean 3-3 combinations at Worlds in 1997 and 2005. As for skaters who won Worlds without 3-3, you can look at Kwan only one year later than 2002 lol. Also, stating that Slutskaya's 3-3s were often underrotated when we are discussing an event in which the eventual Champion for some reason got credit for a rather poor attempt at 2.75-2.5 combination is highly ironic to say the least.

As for the current discussion about Slutskaya's spirals compared to Kwan etc, there's really no value in trying to add something useful. Statements like "Everyone knew that Kwan and Cohen had the spirals in the world" are useless, revisionistic propaganda which only show hows little that particular poster knows about figure skating.

Except that Lipinski won Worlds in 1997. I do remember Slutskayas 3/3 in 2005. I forgot about Kwan’s 2003 win. So after 1997 both Slutskaya and Kwan won a worlds with no 3/3. Seems like it’s almost the norm now to have at least one. Oh how skating has changed!

 

[Skatesocs]

I don't think we had anyone winning worlds with a clean 3+3 between 2002-2006 (maybe we should let Irina have it for attempting such a difficult one at 2005 though). We'd have to wait till Miki Ando (then we had a barrage of them until Asada doing "only" a 3A+2T lol, and then Ando winning with a 3Lz+2Lo the next season, and then Kostner's 3T+3T lol). Before that, Kwan actually did do a clean 3+3 in the LP in 2001 IIRC.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Statements like "Everyone knew that Kwan and Cohen had the best spirals in the world" are useless, revisionistic propaganda which only show hows little that particular poster knows about figure skating.

No, it's a statement of what every commentator in the world was saying and what judges were generally in agreement on. You are being revisionist to claim otherwise and it's laughable you try to say someone "knows little" about figure skating for calling their spirals the best. The superior qualities Kwan and Cohen had over the field on their spiral are apparent to people who do understand that figure skating move, and you should provide some kind of reasoning if you disagree.

Wow, all you have to do is kick up a couple times and you get a level feature? Sweet! Eteri's gals would be loving that.

There needs to be a significant amount of flexibility shown while doing it. Medved/Zagitova in their programs for example don't have enough extension in those types of transitions, were they to be included in a spiral sequence. It's a worthwhile skill to be able to quickly raise the leg up high, and something that fits in with a spiral sequence.

Irina's deep RBO entrance was unusual/creative in that not many spiral sequences start with the skater starting backwards, and she did the turn off her final back spiral to show that she still had control (certainly if there were GOE bullets for creativity, Slutskaya's sequence would have had it in spades - and it was far riskier than Kwan's).

Plenty of people have started with the backwards position instead of forward, Kwan did it far better than Slutskaya in her 1996 SP, and Cohen frequently did it. Slutskaya has to hunch forward and fling herself with a pendulum effect in order to get her free leg up higher. She isn't able to do as much extension on a forward spiral or without arm assist. THAT is why she started the spiral as such, not because of some kind of creative purpose. As for the end of her sequence, she does a simple turn after completely dropping out of spiral, that's not anything special. There was nothing riskier about her spiral sequence.

 

[David21]

No, it's a statement of what every commentator in the world was saying

That's exactly what I meant. No need to bother with that kind of argumentation.

 

[Mathman]

Michelle Kwan did a clean 3T+3T in the qualifying round at the 2002 World championship.

In 2001 she did 3-3 three times -- at the GP Final, in the Worlds Qualifying round, and in the Worlds free skate.

Her other 3-3s (eleven in all) were 1999 U.S. Nationals, 1999 Skate America, 1997 GP Final (Championship Series), 1997 Worlds, 1996 GP Final (Championship series) and 1995 Skate America.

If Kwan's gets a level 4 and is placed on the same level as Cohen's at say 2006 Olympics in terms base value, I'm not sure what to think of that.

Sasha's spirals were criticized on two accounts. First, her edges were shallow and not particularly secure, which detracted from the "spiraling in" aspect of the "spiral." Second, she relied on the "pendche" (leaning forward) position instead of the classic arabesque. This enabled her to get her leg higher, but at a cost to the overall position.

 

[Mathman]

"Everyone knew that Kwan and Cohen had the spirals in the world" are useless, revisionistic propaganda which only show hows little that particular poster knows about figure skating.

LOL. Do you know what "revisionistic" means?

 

[Blades of Passion]

That's exactly what I meant. No need to bother with that kind of argumentation.

Of course there is. You could start by linking to a commentator who said otherwise. I'm waiting.

 

[ManyCairns]

I have to agree with Mathman about Sasha's spirals, though I think he's putting it diplomatically. She revolutionized them in one sense with her bendy positions, but yes, she pitched forward, and I remember watching her skating foot appearing to wobble along on the flat of the blade. "Not secure" and "shallow" is the nice way of putting it. But the high leg position became something of a trademark, and certainly something that she was lauded for. It was an interesting combination of revolutionary in an eye popping way, but perhaps lacking in some basic qualities, depending on your perspective.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

LOL. Do you know what "revisionistic" means?

'Propaganda' is the word you should talk about... I understand that this forum is USA-centric, but to try to convience people how all three American ladies were far better than Slutskaya at SLC is really too much. And whatever knowledge they have about figure skating, it just makes them nationalistic, subjective or simply 'personal' about the topic, and nothing more than that...

 

[Skatesocs]

I was talking about levels/difficulty. Kwan's edging and speed on it is the best ever - but the difficulty of her 2002 spiral getting level 4 as Blades would place it with his CoP doesn't strike me as what should happen when I compare it with the difficulty of Cohen's at 2006 Olympics. ETA: yes of course I get that it's somewhat reductionist to say that edging isn't part of difficulty. But it's what we ended doing with the CoP instead of a "holistic" assessment, and that was the question to me.

but to try to convience people how all three American ladies were far better than Slutskaya at SLC is really too much.

There haven't even been those many who tried to do that...

 

[Mathman]

'Propaganda' is the word you should talk about...

Well, I would never argue with someone from St. Pierre and Miguelon. But my question was not about whether lavish praise for skaters of the past is is propaganda or not. The question is whether or not it is a revision of history to claim that commentators of that era though Kwan and Cohen had fine spirals.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Well, I would never argue with someone from St. Pierre and Miguelon. But my question was not about whether lavish praise for skaters of the past is is propaganda or not, but whether it is revisionist.

Well, it's the word we french people invented, so it's not easy to understand it

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Personally, I thought Nicole Bobek had the best all-around spiral of anyone.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Cohen revolutionized them in one sense with her bendy positions, but yes, she pitched forward, and I remember watching her skating foot appearing to wobble along on the flat of the blade. "Not secure" and "shallow" is the nice way of putting it. But the high leg position became something of a trademark, and certainly something that she was lauded for. It was an interesting combination of revolutionary in an eye popping way, but perhaps lacking in some basic qualities, depending on your perspective.

Where does she "pitch forward" in her Olympic SP on the spiral (aside from the charlotte position, which is inherent)? I see her upper body in an excellent position, and similarly on the charlotte her upper body position is better than nearly anyone who does that move.

About her edging, while it may be shallower, that's mostly inherent to doing such an extremely flexible spiral. It's nearly impossible to do a spiral on a deep edge in complete split position. I think her edging is very acceptable for the positions she is doing, I don't see it being particularly shaky. Check out some of the edge change features people were trying to do, including Slutskaya when she added that feature, for a bobbling edge...

I was talking about levels/difficulty. Kwan's edging and speed on it is the best ever - but the difficulty of her 2002 spiral getting level 4 as Blades would place it with his CoP doesn't strike me as what should happen when I compare it with the difficulty of Cohen's at 2006 Olympics.

Cohen's 2006 spiral has 6 features, so that comes down to the argument about what the maximum cap should be on levels for elements. I wouldn't be bothered by her removing the edge change from that sequence.

'Propaganda' is the word you should talk about... I understand that this forum is USA-centric, but to try to convience people how all three American ladies were far better than Slutskaya at SLC is really too much.

Too much for who? Someone that doesn't want to consider the possibility of the top Russian skater being off the podium? And why does it matter about 3 USA ladies on a podium? These 4 skaters could have been from Greenland, Taiwan, Guatemala, and Mongolia for all I care. What they did on the ice and how it should be evaluated has nothing to do with their country.

 

[Mathman]

Personally, I thought Nicole Bobek had the best all-around spiral of anyone.

Michelle deliberately modeled her spiral off Nicole's. I once visited Shep Goldberg's office (Michelle's agent -- it was also the COI office)) and this big poster was on the wall.

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.tow...db9-89c8-e001ba7eead3/54c6e43f87073.image.jpg

Where does she "pitch forward" in her Olympic SP on the spiral?

I don't kmow about her 2006 Olympic spiral, but generally throughout her career the higher she got her leg, the more forward-leaning her upper body was. I can't really complain, though:

https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/...files/2016/01/Sasha_Cohen_spiral-1200x799.jpg

Michelle: https://staffweb.nsd.org/tley/olympics/regan_heroes/michelle.jpg

I am not an expert, but I think that Michelle got her extension by roling her hip outward rather than by a flexible split.?