JGP # 2 - Rumänien

[persimmon]

short program protocol:
http://www.isufs.org/results/jgprou2007/JGPROU07_JuniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf

long program protocol:
http://www.isufs.org/results/jgprou2007/JGPROU07_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf

As you can see, she only did a triple loop in the short, and a triple loop and a triple salchow in the long.

 

[chuckm]

JGP ROU Ladies SP protocol:
http://www.isufs.org/results/jgprou2007/JGPROU07_JuniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf

JGP ROU Ladies FS protocol:
http://www.isufs.org/results/jgprou2007/JGPROU07_JuniorLadies_FS_Scores.pdf


Myriane Samson attempted the 3F in the FS and fell on it. Later, she did a 2F combination. All 3 of her lutz attempts failed (fall, underrotated, doubled). All told, she landed one triple in the SP (a 3L) and two in the FS (a 3S and a 3L).

Her relatively high placement in JGP events over the past few years has helped Myriane to keep a decent ISU ranking (42nd, at present). But since she has now turned 19, Myriane is no longer eligible for the JGP after this season.

Sure, Skate Canada can give her more time to develop, but where can they send her at the Senior level? Her JGP ROU total score of 117 would put her at 61st on the Seasons Best list, right below Phaneuf, who didn't receive any GP invitations. With international scores rather consistently under 120, she'd be unlikely to place in the medals at the bigger International "B" competitions (the ones that garner ISU ranking points), so her ISU ranking would drop.

 

[nadster]

Sure, Skate Canada can give her more time to develop, but where can they send her at the Senior level? Her JGP ROU total score of 117 would put her at 61st on the Seasons Best list, right below Phaneuf, who didn't receive any GP invitations. With international scores rather consistently under 120, she'd be unlikely to place in the medals at the bigger International "B" competitions (the ones that garner ISU ranking points), so her ISU ranking would drop.

First of all , I admit Samson had a rough first JGP this year. However she has performed much better at nationals over the years. She scored 145.73 at the last nationals. So yes she has put the stuff together at competition just not at the international level. This is the form Skate Canada hoped would materialize on the JGP this year so that she could make the JPGF.

Of course it failed to materialize this time. It is more important for some Canadian lady to step up and show that form at Junior Worlds. It is because of that failure last season that Canada was reduced to 7 JGP slots this year while other countries have 8 or 16 slots.

Next year, I feel Skate Canada might just invite her to Skate Canada and she will also probably get Nebelhorn as well ; just like Phaneuf this year. Phaneuf was the ONLY lady to get a senior B international this year which shows you that Skate Canada does not consider any of its "overage" senior ladies who don't already have a GP to be up to snuff at that level.

 

[skatingfan04]

I think that Sampson has potential. She's still young, so I think that Skate Canada is doing the right thing by giving her experience. Lesley Hawker is a great example of someone who was a late bloomer, as was previously posted, and Sampson is much younger than her. 20 isn't old. Sampson is a senior national team member, so she earned every assignment that she's given with her great performance at nationals in January. I think the federation is right to help her develop, especially given the state of Canadian women's skating.

 

[nadster]

I think that Sampson has potential. She's still young, so I think that Skate Canada is doing the right thing by giving her experience. Lesley Hawker is a great example of someone who was a late bloomer, as was previously posted, and Sampson is much younger than her. 20 isn't old. Sampson is a senior national team member, so she earned every assignment that she's given with her great performance at nationals in January. I think the federation is right to help her develop, especially given the state of Canadian women's skating.

Totally agree with you . I disagree with chuckm's suggestion of slamming the door on Samson. We must support both the young ones and the late bloomers. The best example of a late Bloomer is Maria Butraskaya of Russia. Remember when she was 19 she failed to give Russia a ladies spot in the Olympics. In her late 20's she was World Champion for the first time.

Does he/her think that we should replace her with someone who is likely to finish near the bottom of a JGP and therefore no ISU points etc. I have shown him how a bombed Samson performance is still way better than our top juniors ladies at nationals even when the juniors skate a clean program. And I also posted her national score which is more indicative of what she really is capable of.

Skate Canada in the past has tried pushing the young ones out to JGP sometimes. When they have those girls have often finished 15th or lower and those girls don't improve from the experience. In fact, there have been several regressions of girls in the junior ranks who get an assignment before they are ready.

None of our top junior ladies at nationals have shown that level of talent. They not only lack the jumps, but their skating basics are so weak that they look more like pre-novice skaters than junior ladies.

 

[childfreegirl]

I just watched the Adam Rippon tape on YouTube & agree with Joe. He's clearly channeling Johnny Weir & no, he isn't Johnny but considering that he's only 17 I think he'll catch up. ( I, also, think we have a Jr. Ryan Bradley in Austin Kanallakan). That's one of the reasons I love to watch/follow Jr. skating.

Wow, I hope they can hang in there until seniors. I'd love to see Austin and Ryan "face off". Can you imagine?

 

[childfreegirl]

Not snarky, netnuts--just expressing your opinion and observations. However - if Lesley Hawker were written off at 18 or 19 - where would Canadian senior women be now? She didn't get her triples until then - and is still improving in consistency and quality....and she's now a ripe old married lady!!! lol

Excellent point! I've seen her skate and I like her style. Go Lesley!

 

[nynyfee]

Don't count Samson out. She's capable of doing all the big jumps. I watched her skate all summer long. She can do triple triple as well, including triple lutz/ triple loop. :agree:

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

Joannie Rochette never had a stellar junior career, but it didn't prevent her from finishing 5th at the big O. Cynthia Phaneuf did win more JGP medals than her, but in the long run, in their 20's, Rochette faired better.

Samson has the goods, she still can do the jumps (apart from the 3 toe).
Senior-skating-as-junior skaters have a much heavier schedule than senior skaters who get their first important competitions in October, whereas August for the first JGP. They have to be confrotable in these programs much faster than the seniors.

Dube/Davison usually always have dismal performances during summer... injuries by fall, and have a blast by the end of the season at canadians and Worlds. Rochette had an awful fall competition the year she had that magic program at Canadians (which she won) - finishing 3rd behind Samson and another girl... Who knows what Samson will do by the end of this season?

 

[skatingfan04]

Joannie Rochette never had a stellar junior career, but it didn't prevent her from finishing 5th at the big O. Cynthia Phaneuf did win more JGP medals than her, but in the long run, in their 20's, Rochette faired better.

Samson has the goods, she still can do the jumps (apart from the 3 toe).
Senior-skating-as-junior skaters have a much heavier schedule than senior skaters who get their first important competitions in October, whereas August for the first JGP. They have to be confrotable in these programs much faster than the seniors.

Dube/Davison usually always have dismal performances during summer... injuries by fall, and have a blast by the end of the season at canadians and Worlds. Rochette had an awful fall competition the year she had that magic program at Canadians (which she won) - finishing 3rd behind Samson and another girl... Who knows what Samson will do by the end of this season?

It's true. These Jr.'s are expected to have competition ready programs while the Sr.'s are still refining. Sampson performed really well at last year's Nats, after a fairly dismal JGP season. She won both FS's, but was so far behind after the short that she finished 4th. (I think...correct me if i'm wrong) Her short at nats was excellent, and clean. She can definately improve throughout the season. Dube and Davison are a fine example. They had bad summer comps before stellar seasons. I wish Sampson the best. Concearning the Canadian ladies, I know there wasn't much depth in Jr's, but how are the novices? Rika Inoda, who was also given assignments this year, had a great FS at nats, and from the clip that I saw of Rebecca Addison (2nd place novice), she had amazing flair and musical interpretation. Those two have potential as well. I agree with an earlier post. Skate Canada shouldn't slam thje door on any developing athletes. A lot of our better Sr, skaters (like Buttle and Rochette) didn't have great jr. careers but soared as Sr's. Putting develpoment into our young ones now could pay off in spades later on. BTW, did Addison compete in Thornhill?

 

[nadster]

Rika Inoda, who was also given assignments this year, had a great FS at nats, and from the clip that I saw of Rebecca Addison (2nd place novice), she had amazing flair and musical interpretation. Those two have potential as well. I agree with an earlier post. Skate Canada shouldn't slam thje door on any developing athletes. A lot of our better Sr, skaters (like Buttle and Rochette) didn't have grea jr. careers but soared as Sr's. Putting develpoment into our young ones now could pay off in spades later on. BTW, did Addison compete in Thornhill?

Rika had a great summer skate in BC scoring around 115 points ( SP + FS score). Unfortunately the BC section did not publish the protocol. Rebecca Addison did compete in Thornhill scoring 92.20 ( SP + FS score). Personally when I saw nationals I thought Rika and Rebecca had more talent than the top juniors.

The reason there is more pressure on these assignments is because the ISU ranking is used to determine starting order for the SP at junior Worlds. So if Skate Canada sends someone to JW who either fared badly or didn't do the JGP , they get stuck in the early group which would put them at a huge disadvantage especially on PCS marks. And JW results do determine how many JGP slots each country will have next year.

I know Nagasu won JW silver with no ISU ranking going in and therefore had to skate early, but she wouldn't have been affected the same way since the judges know that she had already beaten Zhang at US junior nationals.

Rochette and Buttle never had the pressure of accumulating ISU points as juniors in order to eventually get invites to the GP circuit in the long term. They were much freer to develop at their own pace.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Same deal with Mira Leung. She was 14th in one JGP, 8th next year and got invited to GP series the year after. In her first senior GP, she was 7th....

 

[Sandra_persch]

And me hopes that Myrian get one of the Senior B competitions this season too!

 

[chuckm]

Rika Inoda finished second to Carolyn Ann Alba at the BC Summer competition. Carolyn finished 7th in the Roumania JGP.

 

[chuckm]

Same deal with Mira Leung. She was 14th in one JGP, 8th next year and got invited to GP series the year after. In her first senior GP, she was 7th....

After winning bronze at 2004 Nebelhorn (126.43), in the 2004 GP Mira had two 7th places finishes (SC, 123.96 and CoC 128.9). In the 2005 GP, Mira had two 6ths (at SA, 125.82 and SC, 134.80). Last season, she was 8th at SA (128.07) and 6th at SC (150.92). This year she skates again at SA but her second event is TEB.

Mira competed in the JGP way back in 2002 and 2003, finishing 14th and 8th. She was not sent to 2004 Junior Worlds (Phaneuf went and finished 10th). Mira finished 8th at 2005 Junior Worlds with a score of 132.66.

There's no comparison between Mira and Myriane, at least as far as their international scores are concerned. Myriane has scored below 120 in all of her international outings (117.92 JGP 2007; 111.04 JW 2007; 106.18 and 112.17, JGP 2006; 99.99 JGP 2005; 87.78 JGP 2004) while nearly all of Mira's scores have topped 125.

Myriane would have to kick it up several notches to medal in a "B" International.

 

[nadster]

There's no comparison between Mira and Myriane, at least as far as their international scores are concerned. Myriane has scored below 120 in all of her international outings (117.92 JGP 2007; 111.04 JW 2007; 106.18 and 112.17, JGP 2006; 99.99 JGP 2005; 87.78 JGP 2004) while nearly all of Mira's scores have topped 125.

Myriane would have to kick it up several notches to medal in a "B" International.

Grant you Mira has COMPETED better in international competition but Samson at least has scored in the 140's at the last nationals.

So Samson has delivered much better in competition ( albeit a national one) in the past. She also won junior ladies at nationals ( beating 2 time JGP - ladies medallist Jessica Dube BTW ) a few years back landing all the triples except for the toe loop. Jessica had won at least one JGP ladies medal by the time of that nationals.

Her assignments are based on actually delivering in national competition, not merely based on a monitor's report of a practice session ( which is how some other skaters get chosen)

Who knows, if Samson controls her nerves better she can go far internationally as well. I am not saying Myriane is better than Mira at this point but at least Myriane has shown genuine potential at national competitions.

Also if you notice the scores that you posted there has been improvement with each season. So she is going in the right direction.

Besides chuckm, if Samson didn't get a JGP, who would you choose instead? It is not like Canada is loaded with talented junior-age ladies. Samson was our ONLY lady who even had a top 5 finish in any JGP last year. Many of our ladies last year didn't even finish in the top 10 in their assignments so they wouldn't have received any ISU points anyway.

 

[chuckm]

Skating well at Nationals influences just one thing: getting international assignments. But ISU judges are not impressed by National placement. They score based on what they see at an international event. Although they appreciate Samson's presentation, they have to mark based on what she actually delivers in performance. And Myriane just does not deliver in international competition.

Myriane obviously had the skate of her life at 2007 Nationals, and in the subsequent competitions she's been unable to come close to it.


Similarly, Joannie Rochette had the skate of her life at 2005 Nationals (60.81 SP and 123.12 FS) and she has yet to duplicate it.

The one thing Mira has over Myriane is consistency. Mira does land most of her jumps. And Mira had a new personal best at 2007 Nationals, scoring 159.59. Her subsequent placement at 2007 Worlds was horrid, but she STILL scored more than 120 points.

 

[skatingfan04]

Rika had a great summer skate in BC scoring around 115 points ( SP + FS score). Unfortunately the BC section did not publish the protocol. Rebecca Addison did compete in Thornhill scoring 92.20 ( SP + FS score). Personally when I saw nationals I thought Rika and Rebecca had more talent than the top juniors.

The reason there is more pressure on these assignments is because the ISU ranking is used to determine starting order for the SP at junior Worlds. So if Skate Canada sends someone to JW who either fared badly or didn't do the JGP , they get stuck in the early group which would put them at a huge disadvantage especially on PCS marks. And JW results do determine how many JGP slots each country will have next year.

I know Nagasu won JW silver with no ISU ranking going in and therefore had to skate early, but she wouldn't have been affected the same way since the judges know that she had already beaten Zhang at US junior nationals.

Rochette and Buttle never had the pressure of accumulating ISU points as juniors in order to eventually get invites to the GP circuit in the long term. They were much freer to develop at their own pace.

Thanks for the info.

 

[nadster]

Skating well at Nationals influences just one thing: getting international assignments. But ISU judges are not impressed by National placement. They score based on what they see at an international event. Although they appreciate Samson's presentation, they have to mark based on what she actually delivers in performance. And Myriane just does not deliver in international competition.

I am not naive about that chuckm. I am only responding to your assertion in a much earlier post from you in this thread that older JGP ladies who have not delivered the big scores internationally ( in your opinion) should be replaced by younger skaters for the experience.

Well , there are 2 big problems with that tactic.

1. The lack of spots: Canada has only 7 slots compared to the 16 that the top 5 finishing JW countries have. That leaves less room for blooding new talent in the first place. Also with ISU ranking determining skater order at JW, one must give our potential JW competitor as much of a chance to build up that ranking. Skating early in the JW short will lower the PCS since the judges will figure that you must be one of the lesser skaters. And as JW results determine slots, it is imperative that whoever we send does well there.

2. The talent is not there in sufficient numbers - Our top junior lady would have finished dead last at US junior nationals and that is even with a clean skate from her ( which she did deliver at nationals). She would have been in the bottom half of th US novice field as well and her real novice score would have been lower than her score at nationals due to lower multiplier for the PCS and less elements allowed in novice than in the junior competition.

Last year , we sent 3 skaters to the junior ladies NACS. They finished in the bottom 3 with none of them even scoring a combined score of 90. Yet one of them got a JGP that season.. This shows you the straws we are picking at.

Basically the selection has been based on who has ever landed the big jumps even once in a national or summer competition since the ladies who stick with just salchow and toe are even less consistent than those who land the big jumps inconsistently. Chuckm, face it the cupboard is bare.

It is easy to talk about younger talent when you have a lot of skaters to select from

Skate Canada has to look far more at skater development and that is the bottom line. SC did admit that they did neglect development for a while. We are paying the price right now for this neglect and it will take a while to right the ship.

 

[Buzzz]

Some people asked for where they could find videos. SOrry for taking so long to get to you. Here is one site which is very helpful.

http://www.fsvids.net/