The "wrong edge" call in JGP events

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think it's more like the manly sport of horseshoes.

You try to get a ringer (three points), but if you miss and only get a leaner, that's still 1 point in professional horseshoes and 2 points in the amateur game.

That is the rule of that game! It's not like calling a horeshoe something that it isn't. My point is a successful lutz is done according to definition.

What would think if a skater had on his PPC form (I think those are the initials) - A Camel Spin - and he inadvertently slipped and slid along the ice. Should we say naughty naughty and give him a couple of points for attempting the camel?

No humorous comment, please. (If I ever get to organize a protest march, I could never count on you to go against the status quo.)

Joe

 

[mzheng]

Judges are bad. What else can be said.

I do disagree with the "jump MUST received a negative GOE" rule, though. Midori Ito flutzed a bit but what would you rather see - one of her huge Lutzes or some tiny one that has a very slight outside edge and therefore is "proper".

Well, imho, you are lucky even to get any credit for your 'flutz' if you already got credit for a 'flip' in your program. Since you are basically doing two 'flip's thus the 2nd one should be nullifiied.

 

[Mathman]

Why is it having to be so major?

Well, many people are arguing that even a -3 deduction (the current rule) is not punishment enough.

That's why I say that the current rule is a compromise. The "call it a flip" side would give the Lutz attempt 0 credit if it came after, say, 3F and 3F+2T. (But they would give the Lutz attempt 5.5 points if the skater changed the 3F to a 3Lo.)

The people on the side of, yes, it's a mistake but it's not THAT awful, would probably prefer the old rule -- let the judges take something off the GOE at their discretion.

So the current rule is halfway in between -- a mandatory deduction of -1 to -3.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just adding to the above: There are established definitions in Skating. Why do you want to talk about points and disregard the purity of the sport? Of course, you can finagle with the numbers to get a higher score but what about truth in elements?

Many skaters (except Americans) can execute a true lutz. If they can do it, so can everyone. There is no reason to be judging how great the non-lutz was executed. Judge the real thing.

BTW. Why not clamour for a reinstatement of the triple walley? That should get points up there with the triiple lutz and it takes off on the back inside edge like the flutz does. Oh but that might just be more difficult for the ladies to do. Heavens, what if they rock over to a triple loop? I guess a -1 deduction for the attempt.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

(If I ever get to organize a protest march, I could never count on you to go against the status quo.)

I don't have a horse in this race, Joe. I am just trying to make sure I understand the pros and cons.

If you want to know what I really think, I don't think the ladies should be doing a Lutz jump in the first place. I have never seen a lady get that wonderful, thrilling, effortless "pop" into the air off that curling outside edge that men do.

To me, the jump definitely has a distinctive flavor when it is done right. I love Johnny Weir's Lutz (at least, his Lutz of a couple of years ago). Also Kevin van der Perrin's.

The ladies? I would rather see them do a beautiful loop jump, if I had my druthers.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So is it safe to say that giving it a Flip designation is to give it less points.......

Problem is these Flutzers are the same skaters year after year executing flutzes without ever showing any attempt to do the Lutz correctly. They get points for the flutz whether or not GoEs take place and even when they do some judges give -l others -2. So they are getting full base value for a jump they are not doing correctly less a pittance in terms of the percentage off for the GoEs.

They do the Flutz to cover the maximum allowed for jump passes.

Joe

 

[Sylvia]

If you want to know what I really think, I don't think the ladies should be doing a Lutz jump in the first place. I have never seen a lady get that wonderful, thrilling, effortless "pop" into the air off that curling outside edge that men do.

Check out Yebin Mok's triple lutz from 2002 U.S. Nationals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h7ZaHKpFMk

The ladies? I would rather see them do a beautiful loop jump, if I had my druthers.

Fuzzy undated videoclip of Mok's triple loop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUPOF0BTmsU

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I
The ladies? I would rather see them do a beautiful loop jump, if I had my druthers.

Volchkova, Slutskaya,Russian Ladies in particular plus Oksana has a beaut when she hits it.

I'm all for leaving it out rather than giving full bas scores for a flutz.

It does have a rythym to it as does the Walley. But I see those same US ladies having trouble with the Walley.

Oh well, it's nice to read that the Tech Controller is calling out Wrong Edge!!!
Next year it wll be automatic deduction of half the base value pls the minus GoEs and the year after the Caller will scream FLIP!!!

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Check out Yebin Mok's triple lutz from 2002 U.S. Nationals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h7ZaHKpFMk

Fuzzy undated videoclip of Mok's triple loop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUPOF0BTmsU

Oh, gosh, Sylvia, what a treat. Thanks.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Check out Yebin Mok's triple lutz from 2002 U.S. Nationals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h7ZaHKpFMk


Fuzzy undated videoclip of Mok's triple loop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUPOF0BTmsU

Oh, those clips. They bring back memories of ths would be gold medalist. But I believe she didn't really want to skate or am I getting her mxed up with Patrice?

Joe

 

[mzheng]

On the other hand, getting rid of the universal 2 Lutz, 2 flip programs would be a good thing in any case. It's boring when every skater does exactly the same thing, which is what the NJS practically forces upon choreographers.

Basically I agree what bekalc has to say. But others have some good 'fair' points too. I think another way to even the fields (not allowing skaters who can only do 3 types jumps by definitions take advantages of other skaters), there should be additional points awarded to skaters who demostrates can do 5 differect triples.

So mao can continue her flutzing and get punishments of -3 for each of her flipped 'lutz'. Yu-na shall get extra credits if she demonstrate her ability to do 5 different jumps. As for how much extra points rewarded, it depends on the market. If no competitor can do 5 triples correctly, the rewarded points can be as high as 5. The more ppl can do the bonus points going down. COP review's point rules every season anyway....then in a long run, skaters have the incecitive to get their jumps 'right'.

Anyway, rarealy you see any top lady (by which the ones get air time on tube) among today's crop who can to lutz and flip correctly. The one who can do clean lutz, who usually lutz her flip, (Arakawa, Kimmie, etc.) One can do clean flip who usually flutz (countless young skaters). Far as Tara/Sarah/Sasha were guilty of 'flutz'. Arakawa was guilty of 'lflip'. Really, past 3 lady OGMs can jump, but theoritically speaking, each of them only mastered 4 type of triples. When is the last lady OGMs who mastered 5 different type of triples? Shall we say women FS regressed? Then there were Mao who can do quad!

All the controversy. I'm so confused :scratch: myself, don't know what am I talking about.

 

[bekalc]

PS. Also, a no-flutz rule wouldn't hurt a three-jump skater with a triple Axel. She could do 3A, 3A+2T, 3F, 3F+2Lo, 3Lo, 2A+2Lo+2Lo, 2A = 44.8 points, before second half bonuses and GOEs.

So if the goal is to force skaters to do all the jumps, we would need a different strategy than to judge Lutzes more strictly.

No, it probably wouldn't hurt the 3 axel 3 jumps skater that much, I like Mao, I'm not necessarilly out to hurt her. But I think though that it would even the scales between her and the others just a bit...And it would probably give her motivation to get another triple jump squared away. Besides if she doesn't hit both triple axel's, she'll be screwed.

I actually think the best motivation for having skaters do all the triples would be to give them let's say bonus points for doing so. Perhaps 5 extra points if you do all the triples, and 7 if you do all 6. I'd be willing to give Mao 7 points because doing 6 different types triples means she won't get to repeat one of her higher jumps. I think this would be a perfectly excellant motivation.. But still that 4 triple flip thing really just ticks me off, and I'm just using the different jump thing as an illustration of how bad, I think it's now getting.

 

[antmanb]

Problem is these Flutzers are the same skaters year after year executing flutzes without ever showing any attempt to do the Lutz correctly. They get points for the flutz whether or not GoEs take place and even when they do some judges give -l others -2. So they are getting full base value for a jump they are not doing correctly less a pittance in terms of the percentage off for the GoEs.

Joe

Oh i don't know about that - high profile skaters that have been openly criticsed for their flutzes have often put the work in to clean it up - Michelle Kwan went through phases of somtimes flutzing and she cleaned it right up. Even Tara by the time Nagano rolled around had controlled that wobbling edge entrance and often hitting the flat/very very shallow outside edge.

The videos of Mao training over the summer show her practising edge pulls into all of her jumps, presumably to teach her the sense of hitting the right edges in the jumps. The same video shows her popping off some great strong BO edge lutzes (but popping out to a double or less) and falling on another attempt. That to me says that she's working pretty hard to correct the technique.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Oh, those clips. They bring back memories of ths would be gold medalist. But I believe she didn't really want to skate or am I getting her mxed up with Patrice?

Joe

I think you are confusing her with Anne-Partice McDonnough who gave up skating because she seemingly was no longer interested. Yebin Mok i think had really bad injuries that kept her off the season for over a season. I think she went to regionals fiarly recently in attempt to come back but i don't think she's had much success with the higher level triples since the injury.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I'd be willing to give Mao 7 points because doing 6 different types triples means she won't get to repeat one of her higher jumps. I think this would be a perfectly excellant motivation.. But still that 4 triple flip thing really just ticks me off, and I'm just using the different jump thing as an illustration of how bad, I think it's now getting.

She would still be able to repeat two of the higher difficulty triples. If she did all six triples then she could do a program with this planned content:

3A/2T
3Lz/2T/2Lp
3F/3Lp
3A
3Lz
3S
3T

Ant

 

[hockeyfan228]

If you want to know what I really think, I don't think the ladies should be doing a Lutz jump in the first place. I have never seen a lady get that wonderful, thrilling, effortless "pop" into the air off that curling outside edge that men do.

I think that you need to go back to YouTube and find yourself some Janet Lynn

 

[bekalc]

She would still be able to repeat two of the higher difficulty triples. If she did all six triples then she could do a program with this planned content:

3A/2T
3Lz/2T/2Lp
3F/3Lp
3A
3Lz
3S
3T

Ant

They are only allowed 7 triples I believe. I don't know if there's an exception for the 3 axel, but I don't think so.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Oh i don't know about that - high profile skaters that have been openly criticsed for their flutzes have often put the work in to clean it up - Michelle Kwan went through phases of somtimes flutzing and she cleaned it right up. Even Tara by the time Nagano rolled around had controlled that wobbling edge entrance and often hitting the flat/very very shallow outside edge.
ant

Of course there are always 2 exceptions to the rule but no more. :yes:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think that you need to go back to YouTube and find yourself some Janet Lynn

Indeed! Fans new to figure skating are not really aware of the 'old timers'.

 

[antmanb]

They are only allowed 7 triples I believe. I don't know if there's an exception for the 3 axel, but I don't think so.

No, the ladies a re limited to 7 jumping passes (which there are in my example) the only limit on the number of triple jumps is the zayak rule - you can only repeat a maximum of two triples provided that one of the attempts is in combination or sequence. If a female skater can do all 6 triples, then proivded she completes one 3/3 then she will have enough jumping passes left to repeat two of those triples giving her an 8 triple program.

Ant