Reasons why the 'Stepukin' twizzles failed at Skate America | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Reasons why the 'Stepukin' twizzles failed at Skate America

gmyers said:
Regarding Lane and Browning explanation it would seem that would absolutely demand negative goe and not the 2 and 3 they got! Large circles and slow is not good goe worthy! I think they have to be discounted.
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No, I think Lane and Browning implied that the large circles/slowness resulted in the bad levels (I don't get it either; I'm no good at understanding the technical side of ice dance). But the judges still gave them good GOE for the sheer "wow!" and difficulty of those twizzles (the judges are human too, and they're as impressed as we are when they see something new). Unfortunately, even with the good GOE, the loss in levels still kills their TES.

I really hope the twizzles don't get discontinued...
 
Sandpiper said:
Side note, to anyone who think it's because they're Russians in America: They got nice PCS (which I agree with) to cover up for having low TES in the SP, allowing them to finish third. So even if there was an anti-Russian conspiracy, it definitely didn't extend beyond the technical controller. The judges certainly didn't collude to hurt them.
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I agree with that. I saw nothing against them from the judges.
 
Sandpiper said:
No, I think Lane and Browning implied that the large circles/slowness resulted in the bad levels (I don't get it either; I'm no good at understanding the technical side of ice dance). But the judges still gave them good GOE for the sheer "wow!" and difficulty of those twizzles (the judges are human too, and they're as impressed as we are when they see something new). Unfortunately, even with the good GOE, the loss in levels still kills their TES.

I really hope the twizzles don't get discontinued...
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I don't know if there is a definitive speed requirement. It may be very broad. Just based on the comments of Lane and Browning it seems both of them would be -2 or -3. That's just based on their comments. I don't know if they actually said anything about what their GOE would've been.

S/B may stop doing them if skate America level 1's are repeated and not Finlandia level 4.

Alba said:
I agree with that. I saw nothing against them from the judges.
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I think they will decide based on their next GP. Finlandia no problems at all and 2 level 4 at SA both level 1. They will have to decide if it was bias or real.
 
gmyers said:
I don't know if there is a definitive speed requirement. It may be very broad. Just based on the comments of Lane and Browning it seems both of them would be -2 or -3. That's just based on their comments. I don't know if they actually said anything about what their GOE would've been.
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No, Lane and Browning clearly said the level is what hurt them. Lane even said something like, "The judges could give you all the love in the world in GOE, but you would still lose out due to the levels." She also, at a different time, said that ice dance simply doesn't have enough elements for you to recover, if you mess up one element.

Browning spoke about how the twizzles were cool and difficult, but they simply didn't fit the requirements. :no:

Seriously, since the ISU are allowing sit-spin twizzles (IIRC, it's a new rule), they should make it valid for your score. Instead, we just get the icky mirror twizzles, perfect for teams who have no sync. :p
 
Sandpiper said:
No, Lane and Browning clearly said the level is what hurt them. Lane even said something like, "The judges could give you all the love in the world in GOE, but you would still lose out due to the levels." She also, at a different time, said that ice dance simply doesn't have enough elements for you to recover, if you mess up one element.

Browning spoke about how the twizzles were cool and difficult, but they simply didn't fit the requirements. :no:

Seriously, since the ISU are allowing sit-spin twizzles (IIRC, it's a new rule), they should make it valid for your score. Instead, we just get the icky mirror twizzles, perfect for teams who have no sync. :p
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The shade :no::no:

:laugh:
 
Sandpiper said:
No, Lane and Browning clearly said the level is what hurt them. Lane even said something like, "The judges could give you all the love in the world in GOE, but you would still lose out due to the levels." She also, at a different time, said that ice dance simply doesn't have enough elements for you to recover, if you mess up one element.

Browning spoke about how the twizzles were cool and difficult, but they simply didn't fit the requirements. :no:

Seriously, since the ISU are allowing sit-spin twizzles (IIRC, it's a new rule), they should make it valid for your score. Instead, we just get the icky mirror twizzles, perfect for teams who have no sync. :p
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Thanks for all the extra info on what they said! I was just going off previous statements that were not as detailed. But they really seem to me to have said the twizzles were of a low level because they were bad and not because of a technical edge error! They also seem to have been very insistent that they didn't have sincere belief that what they were doing was level 4 because it was called level 4 at Finlandia.
 
gmyers said:
Thanks for all the extra info on what they said! I was just going off previous statements that were not as detailed. But they really seem to me to have said the twizzles were of a low level because they were bad and not because of a technical edge error! They also seem to have been very insistent that they didn't have sincere belief that what they were doing was level 4 because it was called level 4 at Finlandia.
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It's possible Lane and Browning got it wrong, judging by the info given by other posters. They didn't mention the edge issue. I'm waiting for the Free Dance videos to be archived so I can see what they say there.
 
gmyers said:
I don't know if there is a definitive speed requirement. It may be very broad. Just based on the comments of Lane and Browning it seems both of them would be -2 or -3. That's just based on their comments. I don't know if they actually said anything about what their GOE would've been.

S/B may stop doing them if skate America level 1's are repeated and not Finlandia level 4.



I think they will decide based on their next GP. Finlandia no problems at all and 2 level 4 at SA both level 1. They will have to decide if it was bias or real.
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The problem with their twizzle is that they start both parts of the twizzle on the forward outside edge and to get level 2 or better the twizzles need to start on different edges.There isn't really a way to be biased about it. The Finlandia panel likely missed this, because they did not expect a top team to have such a fundamental error in planning their element (this is not an error in execution like accidentally slipping onto the wrong edge, their twizzles were meant to be this way). But now that it has been noticed the next tech panel will pay attention to the edges in the twizzle and give them level 1 if they haven't changed it.
 
Sandpiper said:
It's possible Lane and Browning got it wrong, judging by the info given by other posters. They didn't mention the edge issue. I'm waiting for the Free Dance videos to be archived so I can see what they say there.
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The edge issue would appear to the main thing and I am interested if they do mention it in the FD.

sneakypie said:
The problem with their twizzle is that they start both parts of the twizzle on the forward outside edge and to get level 2 or better the twizzles need to start on different edges.There isn't really a way to be biased about it. The Finlandia panel likely missed this, because they did not expect a top team to have such a fundamental error in planning their element (this is not an error in execution like accidentally slipping onto the wrong edge, their twizzles were meant to be this way). But now that it has been noticed the next tech panel will pay attention to the edges in the twizzle and give them level 1 if they haven't changed it.
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It's very possible Finlandia had a bad tech panel that harmed S/B at Skate America. So that's why the next GP is so important. They didn't change anything from the SD to the FD so their rule readings may be wrong and they need to be confronted with the level 1's again. Their possible bad rule reading and the bad tech panel at Finlandia may have come together to the get them level 4 but it was all exposed at Skate America. They have to acknowledge they were bad at their jobs and deal with that. They didn't from SD to FD. That may have have just been a time issue and they S/B are going to redo their twizzles for the next GP.
 
gmyers said:
They didn't change anything from the SD to the FD so their rule readings may be wrong and they need to be confronted with the level 1's again. ...That may have have just been a time issue and they S/B are going to redo their twizzles for the next GP.
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I would guess it was a time issue. Better to do level 1 twizzles with good GOE than some brand-new sequence that they would only have had ONE practice session to design and practice before competing with.
 
gkelly said:
I would guess it was a time issue. Better to do level 1 twizzles with good GOE than some brand-new sequence that they would only have had ONE practice session to design and practice before competing with.
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Better be time and not stubbornness! All the coaches and the tech specialists might have a meeting! Imagine if they don't change anything. Maybe they can get the Finlandia tech panel to look at them again and see if they agree they made a mistake. Not that it would be made public or change the results of Finlandia but just for knowledge.
 
Unless I am mistaken the Chair of Ice Dancing Halina Gordon-Półtorak called them level 4! Maybe she was outvoted or maybe she realized her mistake and sent email to everyone about her mistake.
 
Regardless of how they were scored, I just wanna say ...

... their twizzles are really cool!

That is all. :)
 
Embarrassing? Or reflective of how poorly the rules are understood even by the most "senior" officials, and how arbitrarly they are interpreted and enforced.

It is embarrassing more so for the sport and it is unfair that the athletes who bear the brunt of such inconsistencies.

There was a lot of arbitrary call making at this event I thought. The inners in particular should have been given lower levels for their 3-turn twizzles from Chock. This was most obvious in the Short Dance.
 
Fairness to Finlandia controller, ISU rules says skaters must do ''Different entry edge and different direction of rotation for the two Twizzles'' They didn't specifically say first two twizzles. Stepanova/Bukin have two different entry edge(1-3), this could be why their twizzles are level4 in Finlandia..

Tallorder said:
There was a lot of arbitrary call making at this event I thought. The inners in particular should have been given lower levels for their 3-turn twizzles from Chock. This was most obvious in the Short Dance.
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That is what I call embarrassing :agree: :rolleye: Even our beloved olympic champions Virtue/Moir lost levels and GOE for same mistake before.. Why sudden blind eye to Chock/Bates? :rolleye:
 
This is perhaps too "what the meaning of is is," but if any two of the 3 sets of twizzles were meant, "the two twizzles" is not how you would say it.
 
elif said:
That is what I call embarrassing :agree: :rolleye: Even our beloved olympic champions Virtue/Moir lost levels and GOE for same mistake before.. Why sudden blind eye to Chock/Bates? :rolleye:
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Skate America. Let's see their levels at Cup of Russia later this season.
 
dorispulaski said:
I would probably have dropped them a level for Madison's loss of balance on the twizzles in the SD. However, she does know how to do them correctly. Chock & Bates got level 4 and good GOE at Worlds on the twizzles from all judges. I would not count on her failing on them at CoR.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/wc2014_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf
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Every team on this level of competition knows how to do them correctly. But you should do them correctly, just to know how to do them correctly is not enough. However, it seems like in this case it was enough.
And I'm not counting on anything. I'm just saying that with this kind of mistakes, IF they'll make them again, tech panel at CoR will drop them a level or two. Same as they (tech judges) will probably close their eyes on some mistakes of russian teams there. That's how it is, and there's no need to pretend the judging is always fair. It's not. And it's sad.

BUT C/B's win was deserved. In both SD and FD, and overall.
 
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