Are CoP judges ruining footwork sequences?

[rain]

I've seen lots of posts recently about various footwork (mostly straight-line) sequences in the new season's programs, complaining about lack of speed, zig-zag on the ice to jam in more difficulty, no relationship with the music....

And I have to say I agree with all of the complaints. I hate that skaters are trying to jam in tons of different bits and pieces whether it actually improves the look of a footwork sequence or not. Or whether they can actually perform it well or not.

And an even bigger problem to my mind, which is encouraging these lacklustre sequences, is that the judges don't appear to care how well it was skated or if it belonged with the program and the music, they're only looking at the number of edges, steps etc done. Unless it's slow as molasses, and sometimes not even then, there are no points deducted. And thus no encouragement for skaters to maybe scale back to a level 2 or 3, or even 1 difficulty in order to present something that's pleasing to watch, that they can perform well, and that enhances the program as a whole.

I'm not happy to be watching skaters zig-zagging across the ice, with start-stops that make no sense and have no aesthetic value, and bear no relationship to the music. It's like watching someone try to push a rock uphill, at times, watching the skaters labour through their footwork, when what it should be is a skater flying across the ice. I think it takes away from those who actually do footwork outstandingly. They wind up with the same difficulty level and virtually the same scores as those who can do it passably, or merely stand up.

 

[GoldMedalist]

The problem is the GOE scores. There is no reason why Step (and Spiral) sequences that are less than level 4 should only be getting half of the GOE bonuses.

 

[Mafke]

And I have to say I agree with all of the complaints. I hate that skaters are trying to jam in tons of different bits and pieces whether it actually improves the look of a footwork sequence or not. Or whether they can actually perform it well or not.

And an even bigger problem to my mind, (...), is that the judges don't appear to care how well it was skated or if it belonged with the program and the music, they're only looking at the number of edges, steps etc done.

I understand and agree fully with the above. My question is:

How is this different from any other aspect of COP so far?

The old truism still holds: Rewarding something means you'll get more of it. Reward fugly skating that has no connection to the music and you'll get a lot more fugly skating that has no connection to the music.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The problem with the CoP is that it demands elements, MIFs, footwork, connecting steps, etc. Therefore, the skater must ensure that the CoP requirements are met. The name change also matches these demands. We now use the term, Long Program (LP) instead of the Free Skate (FS). Those terms are not interchangeable.

There are skaters, Lambiel comes to mind, who intersperse footwork throughout the routine which it should be and not just a pause in the program to announce that the footwork sequence will begin here. (Similarly with the Ladies' spiral sequence.)

I miss the FS. The choreography and the skating were more natural.

Joe

 

[Lumi]

I just don't get all the COP bashing. I think COP has just made things LOT better. No more super sloppy spins and non-existing footwork. Before COP, it was just jump after jump and so on...

Now skaters are training spins and footworks. I think BOTH diffuculty and quality are better these days. Atleast on average...

Btw I loved Mao's SP footwork. Nothing overdone, she made it look so easy.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think everyone agrees that the CoP is an improvement in scoring figure skating. What some posters, like me, are pointing out that there is room for corrective criticisms along the way.

 

[gio]

No more super sloppy spins and non-existing footwork. Before COP, it was just jump after jump and so on...

I don't agree! Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Lu Chen, Maria Butyrskaya, Kristi Yamaguchi, Caryn Kadavy, Katarina Witt, Vanessa Gusmeroli, Yuka Sato, Laetitia Hubert, Angela Nikodinov, Lucinda Ruh, Shizuka Arakawa and a lot of others too. I think they were far more enjoyable to watch than today's girls. Also the girls that were know for their jumps such as Midori Ito, Irina Slutskaya and Elizabeth Manley had some interesting and original elements in their programs.

Well, there are more sloppy spins now than once. Travelled, ugly positions, slow, just to meet the contorsionist level 4.
Footworks are sloppy, all straight line (we don't see anymore the beautiful serpentine and circular), frenzy arm movements, no connection to the music.
Not to talk about spirals. Some are just unwatchable. If a skater is not that flexible, I don't understand why she has to do contorsionist spirals. All those peeing dog spirals, flat edges ...
And the programs just look the same. I don't see any originality, anything new.

If I have to watch interesting footwork and spins, I'd rather watch the programs of the 80s and 90s. They could be easy, but the technic was very good and the element was pleasant to the eyes. Plus they were different one from the other and connected to the music.
Remember Butyrskaya interersting spin with her hands behind, Kristi Yamaguchi interesting spiral in her Blue Danube (very connected to the music), Witt's tap dance footwork in her SP, Midori Ito toe footwork in her SP, Nikodinov layback, Kwan spiral in Romanza, Trenary one foot axel/triple Salchow, Manley illusion spin, double jumps with both hand in the air, or behind...
Every skater had at least one original element per program, a trademark element.
Now a part from Caroline Zhang pearl, all the skaters are doing the same things.

 

[Mathman]

Sadly, I agree with Gio. This is the price we have paid for wanting to make figure skating more like a "real sport."

Yes, under CoP judging figure skating is more like a "real sport." And less like performance art.

Only time will tell whether this trade-off will increase the popularity of skating or kill it off once and for all.

 

[gkelly]

I think the current state of affairs (a preponderance of overly "busy" step sequences with often little direct relation to the music) can be blamed on the following:

-The committees who write the rules and clarify how they are to be applied requiring (as of this year) at least four different kinds of turns and two different kinds of turns performed at least twice each for the step sequence even to be considered for anything but level 1; and who set the scale of values so that the increments in positive GOEs for levels 1-3 are not large enough compared to the increments in base values from one level to the next to encourage skaters to emphasize quality rather than complexity

-The judges being cautious with awarding positive GOEs, which further encourages skaters to aim for higher levels rather than higher GOEs

-The need for edges even straight-line steps to be deep enough that callers can clearly tell the difference between and thus give credit for intended rockers, counters, brackets, and threes (or between choctaws and mohawks)

-Skaters (and coaches and choreographers) choosing to pursue higher levels more than using step sequences as choreographic statements to enhance the PCS as well as the GOEs for the element


IMO the best way to encourage more variety in approaches to step sequences would be to rewrite the level definitions so that the "variety of turns and steps" feature is not mandatory, increase the values of the +GOEs for the lower levels compared to the differences in base marks, make the base marks slightly higher for circular sequences than straight-line sequences of the same level and several tenths higher for serpentine sequences (all changes to the "code of points" itself), and then encourage judges to be more generous with positive GOEs for step sequences that use the music especially well and/or demonstrate especially good speed, flow, and edge quality

Make it worth the skaters' while to do a level 1 or 2 step sequence really well compared to doing level 3 or 4 acceptably.

 

[blue dog]

For the most part, the straight-line sequences have become modified serpentines, or mini-serpentines. Under the current system, the serpentine is like doing a quad lutz, because in the old system, it was the most difficult of the three step sequences. To do it now with the rules and to have it be a level 4, it would not only take TOO LONG to accomplish, but would take a lot of energy for the skaters to do. Serpentine has even disappeared in dance!

If they choose to do straight-line, I wish they would cover more of the ice (ie- do a diagonal, vs the current straight down the line) instead of doing a modified serpentine.

 

[waxel]

All the programs look alike --- Men and Ladies. And all the Pairs programs look basically alike. Dance too.

I don't mind the "idea" of CoP. It just isn't working.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I nnderstand rewarding good step sequnces, but the skaters who can't do them are trying and it just dosen't look good. Why can't they understand that less is more. Michelle Kwan won 9 national titles and 5 worlds titles and 2 olympic medals without ever having a dfficult step sequence.

 

[gsrossano]

The problem is the GOE scores. There is no reason why Step (and Spiral) sequences that are less than level 4 should only be getting half of the GOE bonuses.

If the skaters choose to go for difficulty they get rewarded in the Base Value, but if they do the difficulty badly (sloppy, grinding down the ice in slow motion, stumbles, etc). they should pay for it in the GoE. But in general, it seems they don't. Far too many skaters get a 0 in the step sequence. -1s are rare, and +1s are nearly non-existent. Spiral sequences are only slightly better in this respect.
Basically the current standard for what is considered a 0 is much too broad.

One good thing about the current requirements, though, is the need to do at least four types of turns and steps (each executed twice) which forces the skaters to really skate. It is the only part of CoP requirements where the skaters have to SKATE to get points.

The body motion bullet, however, tends to make every skater trying it to look like they are having seizures while they are performing the sequence, sometimes in time to the music, sometimes not.

And referring to other posts ... the reason the straight line sequences are no longer really straight is to allow for counters and rockers (which cannot be done on a straight line).

Also whether or not the sequences are rewarded if they go with the music is included in Choreography, and also in Interpretation.

 

[gio]

Michelle Kwan won 9 national titles and 5 worlds titles and 2 olympic medals without ever having a dfficult step sequence.

Yes, but once quality was rewarded. She was a quality skater, she did "normal" elements, but they were done so beautifully and with good technique. No need of 3/3 (she won also without the 3toe/3toe) and no contorsionism in spins and spirals. Plus what an artist she was!!!

 

[Tinymavy15]

Yes, but once quality was rewarded. She was a quality skater, she did "normal" elements, but they were done so beautifully and with good technique. No need of 3/3 (she won also without the 3toe/3toe) and no contorsionism in spins and spirals. Plus what an artist she was!!!

exactly my point. you don't need every turn in the book in your step sequnece to win.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks GKelly and GSRossano.

IIRC it is the clear and express intention of the CoP not to allow the GOEs on easier elements to bring them up to the value of the next level.

I believe that they specifically had to modify the pairs base values last year to make sure that a double twist with positve GOE could not earn as many points as a triple twist with 0 GOE. (In fact, if I remember correctly, some of the big twisters on the competitive scene complained to the ISU that they weren't getting enough reletive credit for their triple (or quadruple) twists).

But specifically about the step sequence -- I agree with the criticisms on this thread. We don't want to see a whole competition of Plushenkos charging down the ice arms a-flail, punctuating their progress with bizarre stops and starts and awkward-looking balance checks. (Don't get me wrong. One Plushenko doing this is great! ).

 

[Mafke]

We don't want to see a whole competition of Plushenkos charging down the ice arms a-flail, punctuating their progress with bizarre stops and starts and awkward-looking balance checks.
.

But, apparently the judges do want to see just exactly that.

In theory I'm actually in favor of some of the ideas behind COP, in practice I loathe it and can't imagine skating attracting fans with the kind of skating that COP rewards.

 

[anya_angie]

Thanks GKelly and GSRossano.

IIRC it is the clear and express intention of the CoP not to allow the GOEs on easier elements to bring them up to the value of the next level.

I believe that they specifically had to modify the pairs base values last year to make sure that a double twist with positve GOE could not earn as many points as a triple twist with 0 GOE. (In fact, if I remember correctly, some of the big twisters on the competitive scene complained to the ISU that they weren't getting enough reletive credit for their triple (or quadruple) twists).

But specifically about the step sequence -- I agree with the criticisms on this thread. We don't want to see a whole competition of Plushenkos charging down the ice arms a-flail, punctuating their progress with bizarre stops and starts and awkward-looking balance checks. (Don't get me wrong. One Plushenko doing this is great! ).

I agree, ONE is enough! Haha nice to see that comment, it made me smile.

I am very sad about the state of footwork in skating. I was watching Kulik's 98 Olympics skates and am just in awe with the steps he did because they were so BEAUTIFUL, performed WELL, creative, AND FIT WITH THE PROGRAM AND MUSIC. I do miss the old days.

Incidentally, Abt's Rach program has some of the most beautiful footwork in this century lol.

 

[passion]

Yes, but once quality was rewarded. She was a quality skater, she did "normal" elements, but they were done so beautifully and with good technique. No need of 3/3 (she won also without the 3toe/3toe) and no contorsionism in spins and spirals. Plus what an artist she was!!!

I have a lot of appreciation for the simpler things done exceptionally well, as in MK's case. Unfortunately, times are changing and skaters have to adapt or disappear in the process. Survival of the fittest.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I am very sad about the state of footwork in skating. I was watching Kulik's 98 Olympics skates and am just in awe with the steps he did because they were so BEAUTIFUL, performed WELL, creative, AND FIT WITH THE PROGRAM AND MUSIC. I do miss the old days.

FYI, Scott Hamilton complained that Kulik's footwork wasn't difficult enough.

In general, CoP has influenced footwork in a GOOD way. We are seeing more and more footwork that is worth taking note of.

But, there is room for improvement. The rules need to make sure that good-looking footwork is rewarded and that people can choreograph TO the music, rather than just putting extra brackets into the footwork sequence because it's needed to get that higher level.