Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[nussnacker]

Well, I think it's only possible to say it in extreme cases, not comparing Shakespeare and Goethe, but Shakespeare and a newspaper reporter.
A ballerina can be technically better, then it is easy. But what about that elusive "soul" , how can it be the basis for judging? What theater is better, Bolshoi ballet or Mariinsky ballet? They say Bolshoi has the soul, Mariinsky the technique, but Uliana Lopatkina from Mariinsky is the very soul of ballet and Svetlana Zakharova from Bolshoi the best technician, maybe ever. Nothing will ever be tangible in artistry.
And TBH I hate Crime and Punishment, Dostoevsky's language and style on the whole. I will say the best master of Russian word is Chekhov. Put me on the jury together with professors who think Dostoevsky is the top of Russian literature, how shall we vote?
Discussing artistry on another thread I realised that there are all kinds of ideas about it. Many people think it is connection with the audience, charisma, emoting. For some, it does not even mean rendering complicated emotions, but just happily smiling and being charming. For others it is telling a story. While for me it is not only emoting but also full connection to the music, creating an image, deep understanding and rendering it through elements on musical accents together with aesthetically suitable movements and facial expressions. Others may have a different perception of artistry. And there is a question of taste, too. There are excellent accomplished skaters who are loved by many but don't touch the hearts of others. If it were simple to say who is better or worse artistically, why, then, all the fan wars? Fans first fall in love because they can relate to a skater and only after that they start looking for arguments in the technical subtleties.
It was a very long way to say that PCS can hardly be used to objectively reflect the artistry of the skater, they are a ranking tool, and when skaters/coaches complain about them, in my book it means they object against the given rank.

No, it doesn’t have to be extremes. Even in such deep and complex topics things can be evaluated, you just need to have people who studied literature and film and art and dance for many years, and let them decide collectively what’s better and what’s worse in their respective field. Not regular folk, who consumes it, but those who understand nuances, the judging criteria and how to apply them best based on their experience.
That’s why you can’t be put on the jury with professors, only professors are allowed there. Your vote would mean less, because you’re not an expert in the field, and they are.

Soul isn’t really a criteria in figure skating, performance and interpretation mean something else. Putting soul as a criteria would be pretty silly Touching one’s heart also isn’t a criteria for an assessment

I think it is possible to say who performed something better, and who interpreted their character/idea better, in a way of ranking them. It doesn’t mean it is an assessment of some deep innate artistry and one’s soul, that was never the purpose, everything is more on the surface than that.

I just think that in the current system, things are judged based on ranges rather than definite marks, and for example 8.50 and 8.25 would be within the same range of assessment. But how one decides between the two, that’s not decided or written, it’s intuitive, and it’s my problem with giving this part of the score such big weight.

 

[Magill]

Well. talking about artistry in general, the very history of art tells you it is something escaping any attempts to have it measured. Among the most accomplished artists you can find those rejected by the "judges" of their time and enthroned by the public, or those so much ahead of their time that nor judges neither the public were able to appreciate them and they got a proper recognition only much, much later. So, no, there are no rules in place to "judge" artistry, it is too elusive. People just fool themselves they are able to measure it or they have "professors" equipped with tools and expertise to measure it. SS - yes. Artistry - no.

 

[nussnacker]

Well. talking about artistry in general, the very history of art tells you it is something escaping any attempts to have it measured. Among the most accomplished artists you can find those rejected by the "judges" of their time and enthroned by the public, or those so much ahead of their time that nor judges neither the public were able to appreciate them and they got a proper recognition only much, much later. So, no, there are no rules in place to "judge" artistry, it is too elusive. People just fool themselves they are able to measure it or they have "professors" equipped with tools and expertise to measure it. SS - yes. Artistry - no.

Perception and understanding always evolves with time. Of course people made mistakes in the past, and we make them now, but it doesn’t mean that we can’t have a better evaluation and understanding of things now, and that all the thinking and expertise of the past is just nonsense and people making fools of themselves.
And evaluating artistry is far more complex than evaluating performance and interpretation (which are actual criterias, not artistry itself), those things lie more on the surface than the “elusive” things.

 

[Mathman]

And evaluating artistry is far more complex than evaluating performance and interpretation (which are actual criterias, not artistry itself), those things lie more on the surface than the “elusive” things.

I thimk that is why the ISU shies away from the term "artistry." "Performance" is a better word.

For instance, you could say that a virtuoso on the violin gave a good performance if he hit all the notes, demonstated mastered proper bowing technique, mastered a difficult musical score, and made an attempt to engage the emotions of the audience. This is more what fingure skating judging tries to do -- leave debates about "artistry" out of it.

 

[FelineFairy]

I thimk that is why the ISU shies away from the term "artistry." "Performance" is a better word.

For instance, you could say that a virtuoso on the violin gave a good performance if he hit all the notes, demonstated mastered proper bowing technique, mastered a difficult musical score, and made an attempt to engage the emotions of the audience. This is more what fingure skating judging tries to do -- leave debates about "artistry" out of it.

It is interesting that in your example only the attempt to engage the emotions of the audience belongs to non-technical aspects of playing the violin. I am trying to make out for myself what belongs or should belong to performance in figure skating. In the rules there are clear indications: involvement, projection, individuality, carriage + clarity and variety of movements and unison for pairs. Of all these, unison, carriage, clarity and variety of movements are judgeable. Involvement, projection and individuality depend on individual taste and perception and IMHO are not provable. One could also make a similar analysis of other PC. In interpretation, timing is judgeable. But is it possible to objectively judge this: "Expression of the music’s character/feeling and rhythm, when clearly identifiable". Especially the last part is as vague as possible. Please tell me if and where I make a mistake? I am really trying to understand, maybe my feelings about PCS being not objective are erroneous? I mean, being just a fan, not fully understanding how decisions are made, one should at least be assured that those decisions are based on objective criteria.

 

[Scott512]

There is an Evgeni who should be upset with the judging of his lady's and that's Evgeni Rukavicin! But he says nothing publicly.

His 2 charges Nugumanova and Talalakina
were obviously underscored at nationals both should've been in the 215 to 220 range instead of at 200 or below. If Dasha could score 230 certainly those two Saint Petersburg based girls should have gotten in the 220 range at the very least.

 

[Alex65]

There is an Evgeni who should be upset with the judging of his lady's and that's Evgeni Rukavicin! But he says nothing publicly.

His 2 charges Nugumanova and Talalakina
were obviously underscored at nationals both should've been in the 215 to 220 range instead of at 200 or below. If Dasha could score 230 certainly those two Saint Petersburg based girls should have gotten in the 220 range at the very least.

These two girls have never received and will not receive such a result. Their coach is always "silent and works." How did this help his students?

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

And TBH I hate Crime and Punishment, Dostoevsky's language and style on the whole. I will say the best master of Russian word is Chekhov. Put me on the jury together with professors who think Dostoevsky is the top of Russian literature, how shall we vote?

Both you and the professors are wrong, the best one without a doubt is Bulgakov!

 

[Pale]

These two girls have never received and will not receive such a result. Their coach is always "silent and works." How did this help his students?

His student won Gold at the European Championships last year

 

[Scott512]

These two girls have never received and will not receive such a result. Their coach is always "silent and works." How did this help his students?

His guy Aliev put up huge scores to win Nationals and Europeans last season. But has been bothered by ankle surgery and covid-19 this season. You would think having the top male skater in the country would carry over to the ladies and give them more respect.

I don't particularly like that excuse Alex that they've never scored that high before. Maria and Liza are obviously much better than they were a year or so ago. It's time to recognize that. It's time for them to be scored bigger too! If those two ladies skate outstanding at the Cup finals and only score 200 points a lot of people will be unhappy if others are putting up astronomical scores!

 

[Anoosheh]

I'm afraid what Plushenko is doing, might come back to bite the whole russian ladies skating at the Olympics or other international competitions.
There are other skaters (American, Japanese,...) who are constantly getting away with edge calls and are overscored in PCS and GOE. But plushenko make it sound like it's the Eteri girls and "Eteri bonus"!

Mirai Nagasu, because of what happened to her at nationals a few years ago, is always on the radar whenever she competes internationally. Judges microanalyze all her jumps for underrotations, while other skaters get away with underrotations at the same competition.

With all this hype Plushenko is creating against Eteri skaters, the same thing could happen to those girls when they compete internationally. They might become the target of strict judging while other nationalities enjoy lenient judging.

 

[[email protected]]

I'm afraid what Plushenko is doing, might come back to bite the whole russian ladies skating at the Olympics or other international competitions.

I hope, it won't. So far coach wise Pluschenko is no one. Just bla-bla-bla. And figure skating is a conservative sport with a lot of what is right and what is wrong coming from the old past. Just remember I, Tonya when she wanted "justice". They explained her more than once that she just did not fit... Frankly speaking, I watched figure skating back then and I was never the fan of her style. Nothing to do with bad judging.

 

[Amei]

I'm afraid what Plushenko is doing, might come back to bite the whole russian ladies skating at the Olympics or other international competitions.
There are other skaters (American, Japanese,...) who are constantly getting away with edge calls and are overscored in PCS and GOE. But plushenko make it sound like it's the Eteri girls and "Eteri bonus"!

Mirai Nagasu, because of what happened to her at nationals a few years ago, is always on the radar whenever she competes internationally. Judges microanalyze all her jumps for underrotations, while other skaters get away with underrotations at the same competition.

With all this hype Plushenko is creating against Eteri skaters, the same thing could happen to those girls when they compete internationally. They might become the target of strict judging while other nationalities enjoy lenient judging.

Mirai had a reputation for under-rotating her jumps prior to the 2014 Nationals, I don't think getting passed over for the Sochi Olympics really impacted the decision of judges to be stricter with her. If a skater has a reputation for under-rotating jumps then judges have a tendency to look at that skater's jumps more closely because its a known problem.

If the Russian Fed notices that their skaters are getting stricter calls while other skaters are getting no calls like at the 2019 GP France, then they will officially complain to the ISU. If they feel its due to Plushenko's words they may start to penalize his skaters, by not choosing his skaters for teams to go to competitions. I don't know how much press is being made outside of Russian media or FS forums like this though about Plushenko's complaints.

 

[Anoosheh]

Mirai had a reputation for under-rotating her jumps prior to the 2014 Nationals, I don't think getting passed over for the Sochi Olympics really impacted the decision of judges to be stricter with her. If a skater has a reputation for under-rotating jumps then judges have a tendency to look at that skater's jumps more closely because its a known problem.

If the Russian Fed notices that their skaters are getting stricter calls while other skaters are getting no calls like at the 2019 GP France, then they will officially complain to the ISU. If they feel its due to Plushenko's words they may start to penalize his skaters, by not choosing his skaters for teams to go to competitions. I don't know how much press is being made outside of Russian media or FS forums like this though about Plushenko's complaints.

No I wasn't referring to the 2014 nationals...
According to Frank Carol she got that reputation because of national judges, that's what I was referring to.

And by the way she does under-rotate, but the thing is that she is the only one being penalized for it because of her reputation.
Plushenko is creating that reputation for Eteri girls.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

A ballerina can be technically better, then it is easy. But what about that elusive "soul" , how can it be the basis for judging? What theater is better, Bolshoi ballet or Mariinsky ballet? They say Bolshoi has the soul, Mariinsky the technique, but Uliana Lopatkina from Mariinsky is the very soul of ballet and Svetlana Zakharova from Bolshoi the best technician, maybe ever.

Pardon for going off-topic (I like ballet very much, not so interested in skating judging problems ).
I think it's better to say that Mariinsky has the most 'pure/classical' technique - Bolshoi technique isn't inferior, but they are more open to adapting technique to neoclassical/contemporary dance and absorbing foreign influence when it's helpful.

Because of its traditional heritage, the Mariinsky's strength is in Petipa classics like Swan Lake or Sleeping Beauty. For theatrical and/or modern productions like Flames of Paris (or the Soviet-era ballets like Spartacus), Bolshoi is better. Even the theatre size affects the company style - the Bolshoi stage gives dancers more room to travel but requires more audience projection, resulting in boldness and drama compared to the Mariinsky's more intimate and refined style.

Zakharova and Lopatkina both trained at Vaganova (Mariinsky feeder school) so their technical foundations are similar. However, I also like many ballerinas who were trained at the Bolshoi Academy (Krysanova, Alexandrova, Osipova, Ananiashvili from bygone years). They tend to have strong jumps and turns and great acting skills. Zakharova, Merkuriev, Obraztsova etc. transferred between/worked in both companies and in recent years the Bolshoi has taken in more Vaganova students (e.g. Olga Smirnova) so this traditional Petersburg vs Moscow distinction is blurring a bit.

My teacher (Soviet-trained) thinks the Bolshoi male dancers are better than the Mariinsky ones and I have to agree. The current roster of Mariinsky principals has some great technical ballerinas (Tereshkina, Kondaurova, Somova, Novikova) but their men are so-so except for Kimin Kim (and Leonid Sarafanov who ran off to Mikhailovsky...) The good guys are retired

Anyway, in summary I'm glad ballet isn't a sport and we don't have to pick between two great companies. Okey dokey guys, have fun discussing Plushy's media scandals

 

[Alex65]

His student won Gold at the European Championships last year

What Rukavitsyn has from men, he will never get from women.
Even Mishin. Yes Yes. I know. Samodurova win EC with 213 points . And Gulyakova's victory at the 2020 Russian Cup. And the fact that Mishin's pupils are not given an "e" on their lutz. Huge success of the honored coach. LOL. The fact that they will have a place in the reserve team (at best) is a huge success. Lisa T, who holds the title of "Cinderella" of FC Russia, is probably grateful to her coach for this.

 

[Scott512]

I'm afraid what Plushenko is doing, might come back to bite the whole russian ladies skating at the Olympics or other international competitions.
There are other skaters (American, Japanese,...) who are constantly getting away with edge calls and are overscored in PCS and GOE. But plushenko make it sound like it's the Eteri girls and "Eteri bonus"!

Mirai Nagasu, because of what happened to her at nationals a few years ago, is always on the radar whenever she competes internationally. Judges microanalyze all her jumps for underrotations, while other skaters get away with underrotations at the same competition.

With all this hype Plushenko is creating against Eteri skaters, the same thing could happen to those girls when they compete internationally. They might become the target of strict judging while other nationalities enjoy lenient judging.

You make a very pertinent point. The professor doesn't do this CSKA doesn't do this. Why plushy?

What happens if Sofia from CSKA starts putting up monster scores is he going to complain about that too when she is beating Zhilina? And at what point does this damage hes incredible legacy as a sporting legend in Russia? No coach in the history of Figure skating has done this. It needs to stop. Plushie can make his points behind the scene to all the people he needs to. All the higher ups in Russia are going to resent what he is doing publicly. Again it needs to stop and I think it will.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Why plushy?

Plushy has always been like this, remember Vancouver? Nancy Kerrigan - among others - probably thought they should have won, but they never openly complained.

I mean I suppose we can argue about the benefits and drawbacks of this approach until the cows come home, but it's hardly a shock. Usually when I see a Plushy thread on the board I read the title like:

Shocking scenes as man known for being outspoken is caught being outspoken.

 

[Scott512]

Plushy has always been like this, remember Vancouver? Nancy Kerrigan - among others - probably thought they should have won, but they never openly complained.

I mean I suppose we can argue about the benefits and drawbacks of this approach until the cows come home, but it's hardly a shock. Usually when I see a Plushy thread on the board I read the title like:

Shocking scenes as man known for being outspoken is caught being outspoken.

I wanted him to win in Vancouver I thought he should have won in Vancouver. It was closed like many Olympic gold and silver are .

But all these events he's talking about are not Vancouver. He can make his points to the Federation in a more productive manner.

 

[Amei]

Plushy has always been like this, remember Vancouver? Nancy Kerrigan - among others - probably thought they should have won, but they never openly complained.

I mean I suppose we can argue about the benefits and drawbacks of this approach until the cows come home, but it's hardly a shock. Usually when I see a Plushy thread on the board I read the title like:

Shocking scenes as man known for being outspoken is caught being outspoken.

Agree, Plushenko's always been like this - the big problem with the behavior now, he's a coach not a skater, and judges can be vindictive (they shouldn't be but....) so his mouthiness and outright accusations doesn't just potentially impact him now but his skaters as well.