Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[Giltedge]

Really? What about hyperbole (exaggeration)? Not that I could accept such a statement in this context. But it is human to get overexcited, and it needs Mishin's reserve and patience to grit one's teeth and keep silent or use a better choice of words.

True... And Davydov's and Panova's and Pisarenko's and Moiseeva's and Tutberidze's and Volkov's and Dudakov's and ... just about any of the others's ... who will all have noticed and experienced judging shortcomings without throwing their toys all over the ice, the cameras, the press,

 

[Scott512]

He tends to “exaggerate” on a regular basis, which makes it hard to take him seriously. If you want to complain about judging, you need to specific.
The overall impact he was arguing about regarding Mark’s score is 0.09 points.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill!

 

[Scott512]

True... And Davydov's and Panova's and Pisarenko's and Moiseeva's and Tutberidze's and Volkov's and Dudakov's and ... just about any of the others's ... who will all have noticed and experienced judging shortcomings without throwing their toys all over the ice, the cameras, the press,

Exacticly this! Classy coaches in Russia for the most part.

 

[Scott512]

Yes, he says that from time to time, but the choice of words is careful. And he doesn't repeat it and exaggerate. I wish Plushenko learned from him, and not from loud-mouthed PR specialists.
It seems to me that Evgeniy's behaviour is connected unconsciously with the trauma he got in 2010. If openly and loudly "preparing" judges to give lower scores to Plushenko himself worked, why can't it work in the cases he is trying to discuss in public? But he forgets he is not in power position, so it doesn't work.
I am really sorry that he behaves like that, creating negative connotations to go with his name. I think that firstly the FS would benefit from another powerful centre of training, and secondly, there is some truth in what he is saying, but, well, when even truth is put that way and - yes - exaggerated, it impossible to agree with. Just praying it wouldn't affect his skaters, but afraid vindictiveness is part of the scene.

this is the post of the day!

I think you've tapped into something FF from 2010.

 

[FelineFairy]

This interview with Judge Chemodanov and the subsequent discussion here makes me cry and laugh). Imagine that the hockey referee tells how and where in the arena you can hit your opponent with your elbow so that it goes unnoticed and unpunished. Or the recommendation of a football referee for a football player, in which place of the opponent's penalty area to simulate violation of the rules and how to properly roll on the ground, depicting a terrible pain, so that the referee will appoint a penalty. Truly... is figure skating a sport in general?

IMO the examples are not very suitable. Both in football (soccer) and ice hockey there are rules against what you described, it is "unsportsmanlike behaviour", players can be warned or suspended for that, and a well-known "diver" in the penalty box can be denied a real penalty because of his reputation. There are no rules against layouts in figure skating.
Take another judged sport as an example. Diving (water sport) or ski jumping, or ski acrobatics, etc. Nothing different from judging elements in figure skating. In diving, the score is awarded in three equal parts: approach, flight and entry. But judges tend to stress entry into water more because the splashes are easily visible, and if the athlete slightly bends one of his knees where he shouldn't it can escape the judge's eye. In judged sports quite a lot depends on the fact of a judge seeing or overlooking something.

 

[Scott512]

Why are you taking "fell on his butt" literally? The skater very nearly fell (clearly a -5 GOE jump), stepped out of another jump, doubled a jump, and completely popped multiple other jumps. It was an extremely flawed performance and his PCS of high 7's is inaccurate for what he did out there.

Plushenko was absolutely correct about judging bias. I went into detail about it here with the Russian Ladies' SP - https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...-sp-at-russian-nats.87482/page-2#post-2685656

There has yet to be anyone able to answer why Shcherbakova deserved far higher PCS than Trusova for a more flawed performance, especially regarding the skating skills and choreography.

I think we have to remember that Sasha was limited physically at Nationals. I will say she was slightly underscored there. But the placements were right.

Hopefully we will get to see some International competitions starting with worlds in March and then the judging will be what the people here at this forum deem more fair.

 

[Scott512]

This Thread is on fire today!

But it's too early for popcorn. Damn!

 

[Scott512]

There is a realistic chance that Liza edges aliona for the third spot for a worlds team. That will pit plushie against his mentor the professor Mishin for the very first time. If that happens will plushie show more respect for his mentor then he has the TT dynasty?

 

[alexocfp]

There is a realistic chance that Liza edges aliona for the third spot for a worlds team.

I have one question: who do we need to kill to make this happen? Haha

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I have one question: who do we need to kill to make this happen? Haha

Mishin's choreography work

 

[Lzbee]

I have one question: who do we need to kill to make this happen? Haha

You'd rather kill someone than have Aliona on the world's team???

 

[alexocfp]

You'd rather kill someone than have Aliona on the world's team???

Ok, let’s reduce it to kidnapping. I’m willing to negotiate it it down. Haha

And yes, I readily admit that it’s the fan (and the hypocrite) in me, rather than the logical side of me talking.

Liza’s window is closing and who knows how long she has left. One last hurrah would please me immensely. So add selfish to my list of faults.

Hmm, let’s just say that the Rostelecom Cup winner should get a spot in the Worlds. Sure, it’s arbitrary, but we already established i’m impartial.

Even better, if it’s close, ties go to the one currently with the darker hair color. Or an empress.

If bribing works, we can try that instead of kidnappings. Haha

 

[Alex65]

IMO the examples are not very suitable. Both in football (soccer) and ice hockey there are rules against what you described, it is "unsportsmanlike behaviour", players can be warned or suspended for that, and a well-known "diver" in the penalty box can be denied a real penalty because of his reputation. There are no rules against layouts in figure skating.
Take another judged sport as an example. Diving (water sport) or ski jumping, or ski acrobatics, etc. Nothing different from judging elements in figure skating. In diving, the score is awarded in three equal parts: approach, flight and entry. But judges tend to stress entry into water more because the splashes are easily visible, and if the athlete slightly bends one of his knees where he shouldn't it can escape the judge's eye. In judged sports quite a lot depends on the fact of a judge seeing or overlooking something.

I feel that you did not quite understand my point. I will try to explain briefly. My examples from football and hockey show the absurdity of a situation when a referee justifies the possibility of breaking the rules with impunity, citing the fact that at certain points on the ice or on the field this will not attract the attention of the panel of judges. A figure skating judge knowingly allows athletes to violate the rules of this sport with impunity. Moreover, he tells you how to do it correctly. He does not hide this and speaks openly about it. Please help me and name at least some other sport where this happens.
I will add. You mentioned that you have experience in refereeing FS. It's true?

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think we have to remember that Sasha was limited physically at Nationals. I will say she was slightly underscored there. But the placements were right.

More than slightly underscored (or rather, the others were ridiculously overscored). The differentials in points were absolutely insane, it's not just placements that matter. What does being limited physically with Quads (to "only" do 2 Quad Lutzes, lol) have to do with the fact that a lot of her skating was literally identical to the other girls, and some of her jumps were flat-out better, and yet she scored less points in areas where that should not be the case?

I don't think the placements were right either. Besides the SP placements being way off, Trusova deserved 2nd place overall to me. She did harder quads than Valieva and the +3Loop combo, and Valieva's LP was nothing special artistically. Her movement was disconnected from the music most of the time, she really did not follow the tempo of Bolero hardly ever. I think she still deserved better PCS than Trusova there, because of having better overall form and expression, but not enough to make up for the technical gap.

 

[anonymoose_au]

He tends to “exaggerate” on a regular basis, which makes it hard to take him seriously. If you want to complain about judging, you need to specific.
The overall impact he was arguing about regarding Mark’s score is 0.09 points.

I may live to regret this, but I'm going in anyway.

It's about precedent, sure it didn't effect the placement this time, but winning by .09 is a win.

Let's just imagine...it's Euros 2022 the last Oympic berth is up for grabs and it's between Sasha Trusova and Daria U, whoever gets the highest score between them will go.

Sasha - through some creative choreo - gets away with her wrong edge flip while Daria is called on her wrong edge Lutz.

The results are in: Sasha has outscored Daria by the deduction one would get for a Lip. Doesn't matter though, replays on TV be damned, Sasha gets the spot, she's going to Beijing!

Are you seriously gonna tell me that this board wouldn't explode in rage at this? That Sasha and Team Plushy wouldn't get a hail of abuse for being cheating cheaters who cheated for hiding Sasha's flip jump? That there wouldn't be petitions and calls for the Russian Figure Skating Fed to put them in a skate off? That Sasha wouldn't go down in board history as the cheater who stole Daria U's Olympic dream? And that Plushy wouldn't be the literal worst human being in existence for orchestrating this thievery and shouldn't be tarred and feathered and erased from Olympic (no make that figure skating) history?

And that if Eteri and her team got up and protested they wouldn't be lauded as heroes for fighting the good fight.

And that the same thing would not happen in the reverse scenario - Sasha losing to Daria because Daria's Lutz wasn't called while her flip was?

That's the problem with this discussion reactions seem to be based purely on the fact Plushy brought it up and therefore it's automatically wrong, even though uncalled edges have been something posters here have condemned for years. So are they a problem or are they not?

 

[FelineFairy]

I feel that you did not quite understand my point. I will try to explain briefly. My examples from football and hockey show the absurdity of a situation when a referee justifies the possibility of breaking the rules with impunity, citing the fact that at certain points on the ice or on the field this will not attract the attention of the panel of judges. A figure skating judge knowingly allows athletes to violate the rules of this sport with impunity. Moreover, he tells you how to do it correctly. He does not hide this and speaks openly about it. Please help me and name at least some other sport where this happens.
I will add. You mentioned that you have experience in refereeing FS. It's true?

No, not in FS. A different field. However, I am familiar with judging psychology. And to answer your question, I have just named diving as a similar example.
My field is not sports, but we have monthly letters from the board attracting our attention to this or that interpretation of the rules. In the biannual assembly we vote for changing the wording if necessary. There are some cases when the rule is laconic on purpose so that several variants can be allowed. Not everything is black or white. Rules are not always written in a 100% detailed way, so interpretation is very important. The situation with one camera view and different layouts seems to me a similar case of deficiency of full details. I have no knowledge or rights to interpret this situation in FS, all I wanted was to give examples more suitable in my opinion than ice hockey or football. Definitely not calling to break the rules intentionally, which I don't really think was the case in the interview.

 

[Scott512]

More than slightly underscored (or rather, the others were ridiculously overscored). The differentials in points were absolutely insane, it's not just placements that matter. What does being limited physically with Quads (to "only" do 2 Quad Lutzes, lol) have to do with the fact that a lot of her skating was literally identical to the other girls, and some of her jumps were flat-out better, and yet she scored less points in areas where that should not be the case?

I don't think the placements were right either. Besides the SP placements being way off, Trusova deserved 2nd place overall to me. She did harder quads than Valieva and the +3Loop combo, and Valieva's LP was nothing special artistically. Her movement was disconnected from the music most of the time, she really did not follow the tempo of Bolero hardly ever. I think she still deserved better PCS than Trusova there, because of having better overall form and expression, but not enough to make up for the technical gap.

Not ridiculously over scored. They are and were great at the competition of what many people think was the greatest ladies free skate ever and that was even without Aliona.

To be fair in fairness is my middle name. I would have had Anya at 260 KV-255 and Sasha 250. You need to understand that sasha is in a very good spot going into the Olympic year. She's right at the top she needs to be healthy but she can do it. She had some kind of hip problem or something and couldn't do as many quads as she wanted. She was outstanding and no one is taking that from her.. Sasha is one of the favorites for the next Olympics and she is 1 of the favorites for worlds in this mass of a season.

The question and wild card from Russian ladies figure skating going into the Olympic season is will KV be the it girl next season?.
She will have bolero for a second season and probably perfect it and she will feel like she belongs even more than this season. Let's just hope we have a next season and can debate everything until Beijing and after.

 

[Scott512]

I may live to regret this, but I'm going in anyway.

It's about precedent, sure it didn't effect the placement this time, but winning by .09 is a win.

Let's just imagine...it's Euros 2022 the last Oympic berth is up for grabs and it's between Sasha Trusova and Daria U, whoever gets the highest score between them will go.

Sasha - through some creative choreo - gets away with her wrong edge flip while Daria is called on her wrong edge Lutz.

The results are in: Sasha has outscored Daria by the deduction one would get for a Lip. Doesn't matter though, replays on TV be damned, Sasha gets the spot, she's going to Beijing!

Are you seriously gonna tell me that this board wouldn't explode in rage at this? That Sasha and Team Plushy wouldn't get a hail of abuse for being cheating cheaters who cheated for hiding Sasha's flip jump? That there wouldn't be petitions and calls for the Russian Figure Skating Fed to put them in a skate off? That Sasha wouldn't go down in board history as the cheater who stole Daria U's Olympic dream? And that Plushy wouldn't be the literal worst human being in existence for orchestrating this thievery and shouldn't be tarred and feathered and erased from Olympic (no make that figure skating) history?

And that if Eteri and her team got up and protested they wouldn't be lauded as heroes for fighting the good fight.

And that the same thing would not happen in the reverse scenario - Sasha losing to Daria because Daria's Lutz wasn't called while her flip was?

That's the problem with this discussion reactions seem to be based purely on the fact Plushy brought it up and therefore it's automatically wrong, even though uncalled edges have been something posters here have condemned for years. So are they a problem or are they not?

You won't live to regret it.

You really should not generalize the people at the board here. In your interesting scenario some people would be upset some people like me would understand that judges missing something is part of the game to hockey or football baseball and basketball when referees miss something and it changes the game and the outcome. Human error is part of a game in every sport that has referees or judges.

I have spoken about for years I think officials in sports need to be changed every 5 years or so and the same goes for figure skating with the judges. They need to do a better job and they need to know their jobs depend on the quality of judges they are. Dam I should be running the ISU!

I think sasha should have been scored higher at nationals. I think most people here feel that way whether they are pro EG or not. I am sure Sasha will be treated equally well at the Russian cup final. Then she can just focus on skating.

My take away from nationals is tthat Anna was great spectacular as a matter of fact KV was a sensation and sasha was super good with limitations from her injuries from Rostelecom. That makes Sashas performance either more superb.

 

[alexocfp]

Part of me wants to say that there should be some sort of video challenge system by the coaches, but then the other part of me sees how other sports still manage to screw it up even with VAR.

The offside nonsense in football with lines centimeters apart is maddening.

Skating is a hard sport to judge. You can watch a replay 20 times and come up with 20 different conclusions.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Not ridiculously over scored.

To be fair in fairness is my middle name. I would have had Anya at 260 KV-255 and Sasha 250.

You just admitted then that Shcherbakova was ridiculously overscored. They had her 18 points over Trusova, not 10. That's a lot of points. The SP scoring is what especially needs to be looked into. Shcherbakova skated worse and was 5 points higher. This can not happen.