Why only 6 to the GPF?

[sorcerer]

I imagine this has already been discussed somewhere before, but still can't understand why the number of the skaters/couples is limited to 6 for each discipline in the senior Grand Prix Final. Why can't it be 8 like the JGPF?

F'rinstance in the Ladies field, the GPF seems at the moment(Nov. 1st) a very narrow door for Kostner, Meier, Nakano, Rochette, Suguri, Zhang.
Out of these 6, very likely it would be only 2 going.

These are all those we'd like to see in the GPF, and of course we wouldn't like to miss the current top 4 either.

True 10 to the GPF might lose the thrill of competing in each GP, but doesn't 8 seem more appropriate to match the present deep field?
It may also give more incentive for those not mentioned here, giving more possibility, no?
Your thoughts... ?

 

[dwiggin3]

I don't know the answer to this question but it is a good one.

I think 10 is too many. It might take the air out of worlds....yes, it's worlds and there is something special about it but IMO, part of what is so special is that you have all the top skaters (in theory)...the top 10 is often where the action is. So, why would you want to duplicate that earlier in the season?

8 sounds reasonable...but then again, perhaps what makes the GP series and the final so exciting is not the 1-3 skaters that make it - we usually know who they are, but 4-6...that's where the excitement is. I think if you were to expand it to 8, then those that may not have skated all that great in the GP (4th or below depending on a multitude of other factors - and again, I'm not sneezing at a 4th place in a GP - but this is elite skating here) would still make it in. 6 entries ensures that the top placing skaters get in...with little room for poor skates throughout the season (unless you skate 3 events and your non-scoring was the event you bombed).

 

[Geesesk8]

I wondered about this also, but I think I figured it out. There are SIX SENIOR Grand Prix competitions and there are EIGHT JUNIOR Grand Prix competitions.

 

[Mathman]

I wondered about this also, but I think I figured it out. There are SIX SENIOR Grand Prix competitions and there are EIGHT JUNIOR Grand Prix competitions.

I think that's right. When the Grand Prix started (it was called the Champions' Series back then) I think the idea was that the winners of the six events would square off against each other in the finals. I'm not sure exactly what the procedure was to fill extra spots if one person won more than one event (maybe skaters could only participate in one event?), but eventually they developed the point system where a skater with, say, two seconds has a pretty good chance of getting in.

Six also seems to be a nice number for a single flight. In other competitions skaters are grouped in flights of six. That way you can have just one warm-up period. Plus, 6 seems to work out to be the right number to show on TV in a one-hour time slot.

I don't mind the small number. It raises the value of getting that gold medal in the events that you compete in. You snooze, you lose. (Go Julia Sebestyen!)

 

[summervie]

Because this is the Final. See?
And there should be some tension towards the elite skaters during the regular GP events. If there were more finalists, imo, the GP would loose quite a bit of its current interest. Look at the last year's Cup of Russia. Joubert jumped - how many? - 3 quads back then? It was like a pleasure-trip for him. And if there were 8 finalists, how many quads do you think he would jump then?
Thus, no, imo, practices with the prize money and without high drama - no good.

 

[gkelly]

I think that's right. When the Grand Prix started (it was called the Champions' Series back then) I think the idea was that the winners of the six events would square off against each other in the finals. I'm not sure exactly what the procedure was to fill extra spots if one person won more than one event (maybe skaters could only participate in one event?),

Actually the first year of the Champions Series (1995-96) there were only five events.

It also happened to be the 100th anniversary of the first world championships in St. Petersburg (1896), so the Russian federation hosted an anniversary competition in St. Petersburg in February that year, Centennial on Ice, which was about the same size as a GP event, a week or two before the series final, but it wasn't part of the series. The Cup of Russia fall international started the next season.

Skaters could participate in 3 events from the beginning, with 2 designated as scoring events.

There were tiebreakers to determine which of several skaters with the same total of points for placements would qualify for the final.

As it happened, the 5 men's events were indeed won by 5 different men (Todd Eldredge, Aleksei Urmanov, Vyacheslav Zagorodniuk, Ilia Kulik, Elvis Stojko) with one guy qualifying on the basis of a 2nd and a 3rd place (Eric Millot, who did end up medaling at the final).

The first year there was an unbreakable tie for the final qualifying place in the ladies' event that first year and 7 ladies competed in the final, necessitating two warmup groups: Michelle Kwan, Irina Slutskaya, Josee Chouinard, Lu Chen, Olga Markova, Hanae Yokoya, and Maria Butyrskaya.

Also, only 4 pairs and 4 dance teams qualified at that time. Later they expanded the fields to 6 to match the singles even though that meant two warmup groups would be needed.

Six also seems to be a nice number for a single flight. In other competitions skaters are grouped in flights of six. That way you can have just one warm-up period. Plus, 6 seems to work out to be the right number to show on TV in a one-hour time slot.

Yup.

 

[ChrisH]

I imagine this already discussed somewhere before, but still can't understand why the number of the skaters/couples is limited to 6 for each discipline in the senior Grand Prix Final.
Why can't it be 8 like the JGPF?

F'rinstance in the Ladies field, the GPF seems at the moment(Nov. 1st) a very narrow door for Kostner, Meier, Nakano, Rochette, Suguri, Zhang.
Out of these 6, very likely it would be only 2 going.

These are all those we'd like to see in the GPF, and of course we wouldn't like to miss the current top 4 either.

Those 6 ladies are the exact 6 I was thinking of too. It is possible for Zhang to have a GPF-silver-medal-type performance at the Cup of China, finish 2nd behind Yu-Na Kim, and yet still not qualify for the GPF.

True 10 to the GPF might lose the thrill of competing in each GP, but doesn't 8 seem more appropriate to match the present deep field?
It may also give more incentive for those not mentioned here, giving more possibility, no?
Your thoughts... ?

I'm thinking 12 would be best, which is the same number of participants as in each GP. Take the top 12 in the rankings with the caveat that they finish both assigned GPs. The rankings earned in the GPs would then go towards getting the more favorable later starting positions for both the short program and the free skate program.

 

[Tinymavy15]

i think that if all the top skaters came, it would pretty much be another worlds, with all the pressure and excitment it entialed. I think that in keeping to number small only the "best of the best" are alowed in.

But I have ofent thught that perhaps the number should be raised, considering there are so many ties and skaters of ofetn equal worth often are left out because of the small number of spots.

 

[chuckm]

The GPF isn't always the "best of the best". Last season, Julia Sebestyen got to the GPF with two easier events (and finished last, almost 28 points out of medal position). Look at the point totals (for two events) for the Finalists (in bold) and the alternates:

370.75 ASADA
367.03 ANDO
353.02 KIM
348.07 SUGURI
335.81 MEISSNER
328.18 MEIER
325.38 ROCHETTE
312.20 NAKANO
300.55 SEBESTYEN

Ando went on to win Worlds, with Asada in 2nd and Kim in 3rd.
But non-GPfinalists Meissner and Nakano finished 4th and 6th to Meier's 7th, and Rochette finished 10th to Sebestyen's 12th. Suguri didn't even make the Japanese World team.

 

[sillylionlove]

Well the Grand Prix isn't the end all. It's a change for skaters who you never heard of to show thier stuff. If you are lucky enough to win then you might get to the Final. Whatever...more then six and it would be worlds part 1..and that would be lame!!

 

[pista04]

When the Grand Prix started (it was called the Champions' Series back then) I think the idea was that the winners of the six events

Dangg, now that I think about it that way, I love that. I was thinking for a bit that only the winners should be able to move on, with them dropping their second assignment, but then thought that a 4th and a 1st isnt worthy over two 2nds.

 

[feraina]

370.75 ASADA
367.03 ANDO
353.02 KIM
348.07 SUGURI
335.81 MEISSNER
328.18 MEIER
325.38 ROCHETTE
312.20 NAKANO

With the seeding policy in place, "easy" GP's are not going to be easy to come by anymore, especially landing two in a year!

 

[Mathman]

ChrisH, welcome to Golden Skate. Thanks for joining us. :agree:

GKelly, you're my hero, as always, when it comes to finding out the real dope.

Dangg, now that I think about it that way, I love that. I was thinking for a bit that only the winners should be able to move on, with them dropping their second assignment, but then thought that a 4th and a 1st isnt worthy over two 2nds.

It could go like this. A big single elimination style tournament, sort of like Wimledon. You lose, you go home.

So you take the top 36 skaters or teams in each discipline, divide them up in groups of six, so each skater only gets one event. Then all the winners go at each other in the finale, winner take all.

The only problem is, not all of the events would have a creme-of-the-creme top skater, so the event would be hard to sell.

The GPF isn't always the "best of the best". Last season, Julia Sebestyen got to the GPF with two easier events (and finished last, almost 28 points out of medal position). Look at the point totals (for two events) for the Finalists (in bold) and the alternates:

370.75 ASADA
367.03 ANDO
353.02 KIM
348.07 SUGURI
335.81 MEISSNER
328.18 MEIER
325.38 ROCHETTE
312.20 NAKANO
300.55 SEBESTYEN

Ando went on to win Worlds, with Asada in 2nd and Kim in 3rd.
But non-GPfinalists Meissner and Nakano finished 4th and 6th to Meier's 7th, and Rochette finished 10th to Sebestyen's 12th. Suguri didn't even make the Japanese World team.

I'm really not seeing what's so bad about that. Ando, Asada, Meissner, and Nakano did well at Worlds. Good for them. That's their reward for skating well at Worlds. It has nothing to do with who made the GP final and who didn't.

Just because you are the best skater in the world, that doesn't reserve you a place in the GP final. You have to skate for it. Julia Sebestyen skated for it, winning the Cup of China and getting silver in her second event. Win or go home.

Appalcian State College beat number one ranked University of Michigan in the first college football game of the season, knocking Michigan out of the rankings altogether. Too bad. Play harder next time.

If we wanted to guarantee that the top rated skaters would make the GP final, we could just have the final and leave out the other six events.

 

[chuckm]

My point was the GP Finalists are not necessarily the best skaters in the World. They are the skaters who placed high in their two GP events. That is all.

OGM winner Shizuka Arakawa and 2006 World Champion Kimmie Meissner did not make the GPF in 2005-2006.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

A regulation is derived from the rules, and the regulations says 6. Any changes must come from the top brass. Some fans like things the way they are in accordance with the present system. Others like change. It's about 50-50. Until the ISU changes the numbers. it remains the same. The topic is good, and i found replies intersting.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

My point was the GP Finalists are not necessarily the best skaters in the World. They are the skaters who placed high in their two GP events. That is all.

OH, sorry. Thanks for the clarification. Yes, that is quite the case.

 

[enlight78]

My point was the GP Finalists are not necessarily the best skaters in the World. They are the skaters who placed high in their two GP events. That is all.

OGM winner Shizuka Arakawa and 2006 World Champion Kimmie Meissner did not make the GPF in 2005-2006.

Forget the best skaters in the World. GP Finalists are not even necesarily the skaters who skated the best during the Grand Prix events.

 

[Tinymavy15]

well it gives lesser known skaters a chance to medal at major international events. But so much of who goes to the final depends on what GP assignments the skaters are given. Skate America for example was crowded with ladies, while skate canada only has Mao. Mao will proably take the gold without a threat, and thus be almost assured a spot in the GPF. Caroline, Emily, and even Miki will have to place high in thier next assignments to have a chance.

 

[Mathman]

Forget the best skaters in the World. GP Finalists are not even necesarily the skaters who skated the best during the Grand Prix events.

To me, that's what the debate is about. Should it be the skaters who amass the most points, or should it be the skaters that win their events?

In baseball, for instance, if you want to go to the World Series you have to win the most games. Scoring the most runs over the course of the season doesn't count.

I kind of like the emphasis on winning events. It gives more urgency and importance to the individual events.

 

[emma]

To me, that's what the debate is about. Should it be the skaters who amass the most points, or should it be the skaters that win their events?

In baseball, for instance, if you want to go to the World Series you have to win the most games. Scoring the most runs over the course of the season doesn't count.

I kind of like the emphasis on winning events. It gives more urgency and importance to the individual events.

I like it too.....and I also like knowing the points (or runs or whatever ) too to be able to say -- OMG so good, but not good enough, or so close, but not close enough.