2020-21 U.S. Pairs Figure Skating

[skylark]

This is not to be unkind, but the problem Danny has in finding a good partner might be his age.

He's 30 now. So a 17 year old girl has to be ready to begin a partnership that most likely won't take her to the 2026 Olympics. Could Danny be an excellent partner for the girl... yes. But will she be ready to start a partnership knowing she'll either have to retire or find a new partner in a few years?

I made a similar comment on another skating forum a few weeks ago, and I got bludgeoned for it! I have nothing but admiration for Danny, so I certainly didn't mean it badly, just realistically. You said it better, though, making a through line to the girl's dilemma. I also mentioned that Danny is 30 now because he seems so much younger.

It's one thing to know your dream will take a lot of money and work, and even then the outcome is uncertain... it's another to know that it's just not going to happen if you make this particular choice.

Well said. I know that all skaters are fiercely competitive and aim for their best if not the top of the podium, but I also hold a contrarian belief that some are in it as much for what they can create apart from results. Like what Elizaveta Nugumanova said in the article currently in The Edge. Anyway, I'm an idealist and I stubbornly see the possibility of such a pair even if it's not very realistic.

I don't think there are a lot of older pair ladies on the market. The Brandon and Alexa scenario... two well-established older skaters of opposite sex who are available (or will make themselves available) and who have the skills to compete at a very high level very quickly... probably doesn't happen too often. Adding to the Brandon and Alexa formula - they weren't strangers, not even aquaintances. He was a good family friend for many years. The partnership began with a great deal of trust before they stepped on the ice.

Your paragraph made me go look up Caitlin Yankowskas. She's only 30 even now, 10 years after she and Coughlin came 6th at worlds and he promptly ditched her. Aaagh. Well, at 30 she's still 3 or 4 years younger than Deanna Stellato was, when she made her comeback. I'm not sure how consistent a jumper Caitlin was, but she certainly had everything else.

Then there's the pair of Tatiana Volosozhar and Maxim Trankov. They were close to the ages of Alexa and Brandon when they re-created themselves as a super-pair after doing very well with other partners. Interesting that you mentioned trust. In an interview in the last year or so, Tanya said that figured prominently: from the beginning, she said she trusted Max completely.

There's so much upheaval going on with US pairs breaking up and re-pairing that it seems like something oughta be able to happen for Danny.

 

[TontoK]

@skylark Thank you for reading my post in the spirit it is intended.

Like you, I admire Danny. But looking at the situation with an unbiased eye, there are valid reasons that some of these 16-18 year old ladies might not be eager to partner with him. But hope springs eternal, so maybe he can find just the right person. I hope so.

I had another thought regarding those photos of him with Meno and Sand. Perhaps he's considering joining their coaching team. If he does, some of his old training mates might follow him to Great Park.

 

[Olympic]

^

Keep in mind the tremendous challenge Haven had to surmount. She was never the strongest of jumpers, but she was a competent jumper prior to her knee injury. She and Brandon were at a point of breaking through to the next level of confidence and competitive results, and then bam, a freak off-ice devastating knee injury happens.

It was a miracle that Haven relearned how to walk again, much less how to perform again as a figure skating athlete, landing joint-jostling jumps. Physically it was a struggle to make her way back, but she was determined, and Brandon gave her solid support. He was the epitome of loyalty. But the psychological and emotional journey for Haven to trust herself again to land jumps safely was always a constant battle. She never seemed to be able to jump as high or as confidently.

As @skylark mentioned earlier about Danny and Tarah, for all pairs, when one is injured or lacks confidence on the jumps, it always affects the other partner. So landing the jumps became a struggle for Brandon too, in his concern for Haven. We have also seen this similar dynamic play out with Jessica and Brian, although their issues are not necessarily about coming back from injuries. As we can see in Brandon's new partnership with Alexa, he doesn't have problems on the jumps. Brandon and Alexa are both strong jumpers. And confidence in each other, breeds confidence in themselves across-the-board.

While Haven's throw landings post injury weren't always secure, she was always beautiful in the air. She got good height and distance. I think she had more trouble with the sbs jumps post injury rehab, than she did with her throws.

You note Jessica & Brian. As I posted, they are my faves and the SBS jumps are starting to freak me out a bit. Dave Lease called her the new Amanda Evora. I hope that is not true (in the sense that she can't land jumps).

I wonder how they would do reverting back to the 2A as a combo jump in the LP. It would allow them a chance to skate cleanly and build throughout their program, boosting PCS as well. On the point side, gaining 4 points on a SBS 2A over the usual 1.3 on botched SBS triples would give them a few extra points. It might mean something if 3 spots for the US are on the line and the US teams are ranked right around that 13 bubble.

 

[skylark]

I'm listening to a 2-week-old interview with Alexa and Brandon by a woman who does a series called Cafecito con Masha. It's quite good, and Brandon said something that has been roiling around in my head (for weeks now!), and trying to find the right way to say itself, to suggest that it might possibly be true of Danny. But it seemed rather arrogant for me, a person who doesn't know Danny and is a non-skater to boot, to suggest.

After asking Alexa basically the most softball question in history about herself & Chris, Masha outlined Haven and Brandon's accomplishments, then asked Brandon point blank: "why did you end your partnership with Haven?" (Alexa had had a big smile on her face, and when Masha asked this question, the smile disappeared and she looked like she was thinking, "Gulp." Or something worse, like being mad on her partner's behalf.) Brandon gave a long answer with such caring delicacy and honesty! Then he went on to say that he considered retiring himself, and after some time had passed, he concluded that if he found another partner, it was "something I want to do regardless of results, it's just what I want to do with my time and my life at the moment." [My italics.]

That seems to me to be something that any of the skaters, older or younger, could feel and want, and it would be plenty motivation. Like, I remember Nate Bartholomay said he decided to search for another partner (before pairing with Deanna) ... basically, because he could still do this, he had the skills and the strength still and he was still competitive. If Danny or anyone else wants to continue, I think that would be a really great reason to do so. And when I think of someone being competitive, it doesn't even have to be competitive for the top or even for a medal. Skaters who don't reach those heights can still contribute and give something valuable to skating and to promote pairs. Just the beauty of it is something wonderful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY9JfMhX2Sw - What I quoted from Brandon is just before the 15 minute mark, but his complete answer starts several minutes before and is definitely worth listening to. I haven't finished the rest of the interview yet.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^

You note Jessica & Brian. As I posted, they are my faves and the SBS jumps are starting to freak me out a bit. Dave Lease called her the new Amanda Evora. I hope that is not true (in the sense that she can't land jumps).

I wonder how they would do reverting back to the 2A as a combo jump in the LP. It would allow them a chance to skate cleanly and build throughout their program, boosting PCS as well. On the point side, gaining 4 points on a SBS 2A over the usual 1.3 on botched SBS triples would give them a few extra points. It might mean something if 3 spots for the US are on the line and the US teams are ranked right around that 13 bubble.

Dave has an absolute nerve! He tries to smear both Amanda and Jessica in one breath! Why does he particularly bring up Amanda in connection with Jessica, I ask? And I answer, 'Of course, because they both have Filipino heritage, not particularly because they are that similar in their struggles on jumps.' What about other more current pairs ladies who tend to have issues with a jump or jumps or some other element, who don't happen to be Filipino? Dave is ignoring both Amanda's and Jessica's enviable strengths and attempting to belittle both of them, with a sly focus on their similar heritages. Of course, as usual, if challenged, Dave will deny and feign innocence, "Who me?"

BTW, @Olympic, to my recollection, Amanda tended to have nerves sometimes on sbs jumps, so it was likely more mental issues and lack of confidence than problems with technique. It may be technique issues that are the challenge for Jessica, coupled with nerves. Confidence plays a huge role in that the more you miss, the more your confidence is adversely impacted.

Unforgettably, Amanda Evora & Mark Ladwig performed two well-conceived programs at the 2010 Olympics, complete with the jumps and with their signature bravura lifts. But they were lowballed by judges in favor of other teams expected to fare better, who actually did not perform as well E/L.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The second way, the sentence becomes: " ... things you don't know of yours truly." A little more pointedly meaning, "you don't know anything about my thoughts, feelings or experiences."

Don't spread rumors of
things you don't know of
Yours truly

Ah, a brilliant explication, which makes a lot of sense as you have broken it down. I didn't see that at first. Now I do, and I agree.

 

[Olympic]

Dave has an absolute nerve! He tries to smear both Amanda and Jessica in one breath! Why does he particularly bring up Amanda in connection with Jessica, I ask? And I answer, 'Of course, because they both have Filipino heritage, not particularly because they are that similar in their struggles on jumps.' What about other more current pairs ladies who tend to have issues with a jump or jumps or some other element, who don't happen to be Filipino? Dave is ignoring both Amanda's and Jessica's enviable strengths and attempting to belittle both of them, with a sly focus on their similar heritages. Of course, as usual, if challenged, Dave will deny and feign innocence, "Who me?"

BTW, @Olympic, to my recollection, Amanda tended to have nerves sometimes on sbs jumps, so it was likely more mental issues and lack of confidence than problems with technique. It may be technique issues that are the challenge for Jessica, coupled with nerves. Confidence plays a huge role in that the more you miss, the more your confidence is adversely impacted.

Unforgettably, Amanda Evora & Mark Ladwig performed two well-conceived programs at the 2010 Olympics, complete with the jumps and with their signature bravura lifts. But they were lowballed by judges in favor of other teams expected to fare better, who actually did not perform as well E/L.

I get it. I am not a fan of everything Dave Lease says, but if as you suggest Jessica has tech and mental issues with a triple, it might be better to do the SBS 2A for Worlds that are so close now. If they can do them in combo in the LP, that is better. It will net them more points than botched triples. I understood from the NBC broadcast that she is working on new technique for the 3S but would it be ready in time for Worlds?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I get it. I am not a fan of everything Dave Lease says, but if as you suggest Jessica has tech and mental issues with a triple, it might be better to do the SBS 2A for Worlds that are so close now. If they can do them in combo in the LP, that is better. It will net them more points than botched triples. I understood from the NBC broadcast that she is working on new technique for the 3S but would it be ready in time for Worlds?

Ummm, but landing sbs 2-axels isn't necessarily an easy alternative for every pairs skater. Some skaters don't excel on edge jumps, particularly not the forward edge takeoff necessary for axels. I have no idea regarding where Jessica and Brian are if either she or they both are relearning jump technique for 3-salchows. Being helped by Raf or one of his assistants is definitely a boon, but reworking jumps takes time and patience.

We don't really know exactly what the issues are for Jessica and Brian regarding sbs jumps, but I hope they figure it out soon because they are top-notch on everything else, aside from trying to sync their dissimilar techniques on the throws. Jessica gets great height on those but not great distance. She often seems to be atilt in the air, but she usually lands cat-like with a strong back, even if she's leaning in the air.

I don't need to wax poetic about the rest of C/J's gorgeous, world-class elements, and their enviable on-ice chemistry. It's A-plus and then some!

Personally, I don't have the best eye for noticing issues on jump technique. I'd love to talk to skaters and coaches in-the-know about what to look for in assessing jump issues that involve technical deficiencies. One of the challenges involved in learning figure skating is that there are so many different techniques. I don't know if there are books which codify the different techniques, because half the time, athletes probably improvise and figure out with their coaches what works for them and go for it. Maybe there's a rulebook that lays down classic techniques. I know that Coach TomZ has written some things about jump technique and he's presented workshop tutorials.

If jumping were that easy, everyone would do it well and consistently all the time. It's a lot harder to jump consistently in sync with a partner. And then nervous anxiety is a whole 'nother issue for many athletes in competition, which sometimes can be alleviated through sports counseling.

 

[Olympic]

Ummm, but landing sbs 2-axels isn't necessarily an easy alternative for every pairs skater. Some skaters don't excel on edge jumps, particularly not the forward edge takeoff necessary for axels. I have no idea regarding where Jessica and Brian are if either she or they both are relearning jump technique for 3-salchows. Being helped by Raf or one of his assistants is definitely a boon, but reworking jumps takes time and patience.

We don't really know exactly what the issues are for Jessica and Brian regarding sbs jumps, but I hope they figure it out soon because they are top-notch on everything else, aside from trying to sync their dissimilar techniques on the throws. Jessica gets great height on those but not great distance. She often seems to be atilt in the air, but she usually lands cat-like with a strong back, even if she's leaning in the air.

I don't need to wax poetic about the rest of C/J's gorgeous, world-class elements, and their enviable on-ice chemistry. It's A-plus and then some!

Personally, I don't have the best eye for noticing issues on jump technique. I'd love to talk to skaters and coaches in-the-know about what to look for in assessing jump issues that involve technical deficiencies. One of the challenges involved in learning figure skating is that there are so many different techniques. I don't know if there are books which codify the different techniques, because half the time, athletes probably improvise and figure out with their coaches what works for them and go for it. Maybe there's a rulebook that lays down classic techniques. I know that Coach TomZ has written some things about jump technique and he's presented workshop tutorials.

If jumping were that easy, everyone would do it well and consistently all the time. It's a lot harder to jump consistently in sync with a partner. And then nervous anxiety is a whole 'nother issue for many athletes in competition, which sometimes can be alleviated through sports counseling.

I just had the idea based on the fact that they were landing SBS 2As in competition at 2019 US Nationals after only their 1st few months together

 

[Spiralgraph]

I agree it might be better for Jessica C. and Brian to do SBS double axels... on the other hand if they have been training 3S for a long time and then switch to 2A that might mess up their unison or worse. It's their first World championships they're actually participating in. I'd rather not put too much pressure on them or K/F either. I don't expect them to make that magic 13 number, I just want both teams to skate well and be near the top 10.

 

[Joubabe]

I'm listening to a 2-week-old interview with Alexa and Brandon by a woman who does a series called Cafecito con Masha. It's quite good, and Brandon said something that has been roiling around in my head (for weeks now!), and trying to find the right way to say itself, to suggest that it might possibly be true of Danny. But it seemed rather arrogant for me, a person who doesn't know Danny and is a non-skater to boot, to suggest.

After asking Alexa basically the most softball question in history about herself & Chris, Masha outlined Haven and Brandon's accomplishments, then asked Brandon point blank: "why did you end your partnership with Haven?" (Alexa had had a big smile on her face, and when Masha asked this question, the smile disappeared and she looked like she was thinking, "Gulp." Or something worse, like being mad on her partner's behalf.) Brandon gave a long answer with such caring delicacy and honesty! Then he went on to say that he considered retiring himself, and after some time had passed, he concluded that if he found another partner, it was "something I want to do regardless of results, it's just what I want to do with my time and my life at the moment." [My italics.]

That seems to me to be something that any of the skaters, older or younger, could feel and want, and it would be plenty motivation. Like, I remember Nate Bartholomay said he decided to search for another partner (before pairing with Deanna) ... basically, because he could still do this, he had the skills and the strength still and he was still competitive. If Danny or anyone else wants to continue, I think that would be a really great reason to do so. And when I think of someone being competitive, it doesn't even have to be competitive for the top or even for a medal. Skaters who don't reach those heights can still contribute and give something valuable to skating and to promote pairs. Just the beauty of it is something wonderful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY9JfMhX2Sw - What I quoted from Brandon is just before the 15 minute mark, but his complete answer starts several minutes before and is definitely worth listening to. I haven't finished the rest of the interview yet.

Thank you for posting this interview! Very interesting and honest responses from Alexa and Brandon.

 

[skylark]

I don't need to wax poetic about the rest of C/J's gorgeous, world-class elements, and their enviable on-ice chemistry. It's A-plus and then some!

Oh, but it's fun! I think one of the things Jessica and Brian do so well, second to the sheer quality of their lifts and twist, is that they not only have wonderful on-ice chemistry ... they make the most of it. They take every opportunity to look into each other's eyes and otherwise maximize the small in-between moments that illuminate their connection so that the audience gets to enjoy and participate in it.

If jumping were that easy, everyone would do it well and consistently all the time. It's a lot harder to jump consistently in sync with a partner. And then nervous anxiety is a whole 'nother issue for many athletes in competition, which sometimes can be alleviated through sports counseling.

Yes. I watched a few of the junior Russian pairs skates this morning, and it's clear. It's not just US pairs that find SBS jumps challenging. One pair I liked skated (more like danced) to a John Travolta song, and the guy looks like Travolta! The only element they made a mistake on was the SBS jump.

 

[skylark]

I just had the idea based on the fact that they were landing SBS 2As in competition at 2019 US Nationals after only their 1st few months together

You're right, and I'd forgotten that. I think you've got a good idea there. If they're working on their jumps with Raf, who knows what changes he's made in their techniques ( well, some may guess, but I haven't a clue) and how long it may take to see the best results. I was thinking about Meryl and Charlie, and how they included a lift in their 2014 Olympic FD that they worked on for years - at least two years, and it may have been more than that ... before they could even complete it successfully. And by the time the olympic year happened, it was spectacular. So there's a parallel there.

Another thought I have in regard to your idea: Several of our top pairs teams have really close friendships with one another and they have said or seem to be sympatico with the idea that they all desire and aspire to raise the US Pairs program, along with hoping for their individual successes. It seems to be a collective goal that they want to try their best to earn that third spot for next year. If Jessica and Brian made the change to SBS axels, with the GOE they can earn on so many of their elements, it might make the difference for them, and for "the team."

 

[skylark]

I agree it might be better for Jessica C. and Brian to do SBS double axels... on the other hand if they have been training 3S for a long time and then switch to 2A that might mess up their unison or worse. It's their first World championships they're actually participating in. I'd rather not put too much pressure on them or K/F either. I don't expect them to make that magic 13 number, I just want both teams to skate well and be near the top 10.

I don't want to put pressure on them either, but I imagine they'll feel it anyway . The thing is, I think they're very close to the magic 13 number. Really, it depends on whether the Russians, the Chinese, and (possibly) the Canadians make mistakes on the day. Even without mistakes, I think it's pretty well within possibility that Alexa and Brandon could end up in 5th, and Jessica and Brian could be 8th. That would be awesome! Or 6th and 7th.

But no pressure.

 

[skylark]

Thank you for posting this interview! Very interesting and honest responses from Alexa and Brandon.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm really impressed by how they've thought through their goals and considered what they value now and going forward. Especially Brandon ... although that may be because before this year, I hadn't heard much from him or at least not such deeply considered thoughts. Their answer about why they picked "Fall on You" for their FS was cute and also just really neat.

 

[happycamper2554]

No need to worry about jumps for C/J. They are out for personal reasons, C-G/L are in

Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc Added to World Team - U.S. Figure Skating

Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc will represent Team USA at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021 later this month, U.S. Figure Skating announced

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

 

[labgoat]

No need to worry about jumps for C/J. They are out for personal reasons, C-G/L are in

Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc Added to World Team - U.S. Figure Skating

Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc will represent Team USA at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021 later this month, U.S. Figure Skating announced

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

Sad for C/J, whom I love, but happy for CG/L.

 

[Olympic]

^This is the saddest news for me. It is not injury-related so I'm curious to know what happened exactly.

At any rate, Tim and Ash had the occasional miscue at Nationals but their twist looks super-strong all of a sudden and Ash was landing jumps. I hope they skate lights out at Worlds

 

[skylark]

No need to worry about jumps for C/J. They are out for personal reasons, C-G/L are in

Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc Added to World Team - U.S. Figure Skating

Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc will represent Team USA at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021 later this month, U.S. Figure Skating announced

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

Whew. This throws us all for a loop. Oddly, earlier today I was thinking about Ashley and Tim and the next alternates, Audrey and Misha, keeping up training of their programs because ... that's part of the honor/difficulty of being alternates.

Whatever challenges Jessica and Brandon are working through, I hope and trust that they'll come out the other side strong and graceful as ever.

I'm sad for them, but so happy for Ashley and Tim. I know they won't take this opportunity for granted and will work diligently to skate their best at Worlds for themselves, for USA and for the whole pairs team.

 

[happycamper2554]

I'm sad for them, but so happy for Ashley and Tim. I know they won't take this opportunity for granted and will work diligently to skate their best at Worlds for themselves, for USA and for the whole pairs team.

Its not like they ever handle pressure well. I sibt know why you would expect it to happen this time.