- Joined
- Dec 5, 2015
I would say this result, while not good, shows the potential of K/ F. The second they stopped being messy they starting getting huge GOE. Next year, I expect more from them. They should have been at least a place higher here.
2020-21 U.S. Pairs Figure Skating
- Thread starter skylark
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
Actually, neither Ash/Tim nor Alexa/Brandon skated their best in either program. When you have nerves, particularly on the difficult international stage where it's harder to compete and get the points you would get at a Nationals, the jumps tend to be the thing hardest to deliver. But conversely both of these teams are very strong jumpers. That's the thing hurts the most for me -- they faltered on elements they can deliver. Element-to-element, it is true that Alexa/Brandon have better GOE potential, but they gotta man up when they have opportunities to assert themselves competitively. That's why I don't like all the overload of points at U.S. Nationals and the fawning over them, and the coddling. They gotta be tough when the going gets tough. So stop with the excessive Mom/Pop p.r. mentality and figure out how to grow a pairs division that can rock not just Canadian teams, but also regularly rock and rival Russian and Chinese teams. That takes more than just a notion and more than just 'Get-Up' campaign platitudes and status quo p.r.
I hated seeing both teams looking so tentative out there, when we all know, you gotta grab the opportunities when they come. I'm even more surprised by Ash/Tim, because they may not get another opportunity if Jess/Brian figure out their sbs jumps, they are much stronger on other elements than Ash/Tim.
Both of these teams let themselves and each other down a little bit, but they didn't crumble completely so that's something. I'm sure they're holding onto that part of it, and neither will give up. It just is what it is. Maybe they will both get the chance to make Worlds and Olympics next year, but it's not a given.
And let's be honest that KMT/MM are still vulnerable, despite landing in fifth position. They didn't actually skate lights out. The scores from placements 5 through 10 are very close, and so placements among this tightly competitive group would be a toss-up at any competition. But what I will say is that KMT/MM are set up very well now going into next season. They are surely feeling very good right now and breathing a huge sigh of relief that they placed ahead of two strong U.S. rival teams, which means a third excellent U.S. team who can also beat them, won't be in the mix. Or that team, Jess/Brian, might well be in the mix, with one of Ash/Tim or Alexa/Brandon out of the mix next year at Worlds and Olympics (Alexa/Brandon are likely to continue being strongly backed by U.S. fed). For Ash/Tim, the going might well be harder. It may depend on how Jess/Brian fare with their sbs jump improvement, because we all know that Jess/Brian are world-class in everything else.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
I don't know going forward. Most likely, both U.S. teams will look on the positive side, and understand the nerves and how tough it was. But they also need to figure out what they learned that they can use to try and turn around being too tight when they need to deliver. How to muster calm and the right level of aggression is key. Figure out how to block out all the chatter and the pressure. This is their task, along with believing in themselves. They have to believe that they are strong enough to compete, not only with the second group, but with the top group. It is possible on any given day.
The U.S. teams aren't unique in suffering from nerves under pressure. It's just that some other teams, like Ziegler/Kiefer, Della Monica/Guarise, et al., get to go to Worlds every single year and compete under many different conditions and make mistakes, and still be guaranteed they will be going back to the big stage the following year. U.S. teams do not have that luxury.
Seemingly, Alexa & Brandon are setting their sights mainly on Beijing, and they'll probably retire perhaps 2022 or give it one more year and retire in 2023. KMT/MM have already said that they are planning to retire after Beijing 2022. I would imagine that 2022 will also be the end of the line for Ash/Tim as well. Likely both Ash and Alexa are interested in settling down to have babies, and perhaps they will coach and/or skate in shows with their on-ice partners.
The U.S. teams aren't unique in suffering from nerves under pressure. It's just that some other teams, like Ziegler/Kiefer, Della Monica/Guarise, et al., get to go to Worlds every single year and compete under many different conditions and make mistakes, and still be guaranteed they will be going back to the big stage the following year. U.S. teams do not have that luxury.
Seemingly, Alexa & Brandon are setting their sights mainly on Beijing, and they'll probably retire perhaps 2022 or give it one more year and retire in 2023. KMT/MM have already said that they are planning to retire after Beijing 2022. I would imagine that 2022 will also be the end of the line for Ash/Tim as well. Likely both Ash and Alexa are interested in settling down to have babies, and perhaps they will coach and/or skate in shows with their on-ice partners.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
Yep, I'm kinda bummed now, but of course two U.S. teams in the top ten is a step forward. U.S. pairs' last placement in 2019 was 9th. So Ash/Tim remain in 9th again after having had a chance to move up several spots. And Alexa essentially repeats her highest placement at Worlds that she formerly had with Chris in 2015. Indeed, 7th is the highest placement for the U.S. since 2011 Worlds when Caitlin Yankowskas and John Coughlin placed 6th (after posting that promising result, Coughlin promptly split with Caitlin to run after Caydee Denney, and U.S. fed allowed that to happen). Caitlin had a gorgeous style that garnered oohs and ahhs and points, but obviously momentum toward the top thereafter for U.S. pairs was lost (as was Caitlin's skating career). While Denney/Coughlin were a good team with competitive tech elements, their coaching team erred in trying to refashion Caydee in the same mold as Caitlin. That was a huge, bonehead mistake. They should have allowed Caydee to be herself and to figure out how to sell her vibrant personality and her athleticism with Coughlin, rather than trying to make her balletic like Caitlin. That approach was bound to fail, and it did. Although Caydee Denney/John Coughlin were a good team, they never placed as high as Yankowskas/Coughlin. Later, injuries set in and the Denney/Coughlin career ended unsatisfactorily.
Before that Rena Inoue/John Baldwin were 7th at the 2006 Olympics, and 4th at 2006 Worlds. There could have been more progress toward the top before now, except for the injuries/illness that top U.S. pairs suffered, which led to loss of momentum and struggles to make comebacks. So yes, in view of those challenges and setbacks, a lot of progress has been made, and it is important to stress the positives and to look on the bright side.
In the U.S. fan zone article, it appears that Brandon and Timothy said all the right things in press conferences. Obviously, they are disappointed, but they're also trying to be as positive and forward-thinking as possible. The important thing is to try and learn from this experience. But I think also to understand that the opportunities aren't always there in figure skating, which makes the road harder. So be hungry and determined when you get the opportunity. Ash/Tim essentially held their own at Worlds 2021, but they didn't make a lot of progress in asserting themselves competitively. They can say they achieved some personal progress in view of some of the setbacks they experienced last year. But they didn't make enough progress to make the road ahead any easier for themselves. It is what it is.
For Alexa/Brandon, it has been an unusual year, and they have made a lot of progress. It's sad though that they couldn't grab the opportunity here to at least skate their best, because that's all you can ask. When you know you didn't skate your best, you left points on the table. And so they at least have a good World standing now, but they have to be stronger mentally as partners. It's a tough sport competitively. The competitive structure of figure skating makes things more difficult, especially for teams who aren't guaranteed World berths every year, which isn't fair. So, there's a mix of emotions right now for sure. The bottom line is, try to skate your best and figure out how to shake off the nerves, or make them work for you.
usfigureskatingfanzone.com
State the glass half-full facts, of course. But I don't agree with any sugarcoating approach by U.S. fed. It is U.S. fed who should be looking at different and better ways to build their disciplines, especially U.S. pairs, which has a lot of depth of talent, but will need to fend off close rivals to make more headway on the World stage. Still, I don't see U.S. fed leadership changing for the better anytime soon.
Timothy:
"We're always going to be pushing ourselves forward as a team to try new things, and ultimately just try to find that right mix so we can get to the top."
That's a good approach and the positive way to look at it, but they also surely realize the narrow time element (and tough battle to even make it back to Worlds), unless they are planning to stay in for another two to four years after the 2022 Olympics.
7th and 9th is of course good in this field. But the reality is that both teams could have capitalized here to have either maintained 6th and 7th places, or else 5th and 8th. It was entirely possible. Honestly, even 5th and 6th was possible by simply skating their absolute best and seeing chips fall where they may if other teams faltered a bit. That's the way of the sport. Next year, there will be teams below them and teams who missed 2021 Worlds nipping at their skate blades. By carving out that third spot with a stronger showing, a third team in Jess/Brian would have been able to add to U.S. pairs' strength at Olympics and Worlds next year. I know it wasn't a given, but they were so close and it was within their reach. The teams around and ahead of them are talented and competitive, but they possess the talent to beat them, and they didn't because they didn't skate their best. The idea of how tantalizingly close it was is so frustrating.
Before that Rena Inoue/John Baldwin were 7th at the 2006 Olympics, and 4th at 2006 Worlds. There could have been more progress toward the top before now, except for the injuries/illness that top U.S. pairs suffered, which led to loss of momentum and struggles to make comebacks. So yes, in view of those challenges and setbacks, a lot of progress has been made, and it is important to stress the positives and to look on the bright side.
In the U.S. fan zone article, it appears that Brandon and Timothy said all the right things in press conferences. Obviously, they are disappointed, but they're also trying to be as positive and forward-thinking as possible. The important thing is to try and learn from this experience. But I think also to understand that the opportunities aren't always there in figure skating, which makes the road harder. So be hungry and determined when you get the opportunity. Ash/Tim essentially held their own at Worlds 2021, but they didn't make a lot of progress in asserting themselves competitively. They can say they achieved some personal progress in view of some of the setbacks they experienced last year. But they didn't make enough progress to make the road ahead any easier for themselves. It is what it is.
For Alexa/Brandon, it has been an unusual year, and they have made a lot of progress. It's sad though that they couldn't grab the opportunity here to at least skate their best, because that's all you can ask. When you know you didn't skate your best, you left points on the table. And so they at least have a good World standing now, but they have to be stronger mentally as partners. It's a tough sport competitively. The competitive structure of figure skating makes things more difficult, especially for teams who aren't guaranteed World berths every year, which isn't fair. So, there's a mix of emotions right now for sure. The bottom line is, try to skate your best and figure out how to shake off the nerves, or make them work for you.
U.S. Pairs Notch Two Top-10 Finishes on Thursday at Worlds - U.S. Figure Skating
General information: Full Results | PDF Schedule | ISU Site
usfigureskatingfanzone.com
State the glass half-full facts, of course. But I don't agree with any sugarcoating approach by U.S. fed. It is U.S. fed who should be looking at different and better ways to build their disciplines, especially U.S. pairs, which has a lot of depth of talent, but will need to fend off close rivals to make more headway on the World stage. Still, I don't see U.S. fed leadership changing for the better anytime soon.
Timothy:
"We're always going to be pushing ourselves forward as a team to try new things, and ultimately just try to find that right mix so we can get to the top."
That's a good approach and the positive way to look at it, but they also surely realize the narrow time element (and tough battle to even make it back to Worlds), unless they are planning to stay in for another two to four years after the 2022 Olympics.
7th and 9th is of course good in this field. But the reality is that both teams could have capitalized here to have either maintained 6th and 7th places, or else 5th and 8th. It was entirely possible. Honestly, even 5th and 6th was possible by simply skating their absolute best and seeing chips fall where they may if other teams faltered a bit. That's the way of the sport. Next year, there will be teams below them and teams who missed 2021 Worlds nipping at their skate blades. By carving out that third spot with a stronger showing, a third team in Jess/Brian would have been able to add to U.S. pairs' strength at Olympics and Worlds next year. I know it wasn't a given, but they were so close and it was within their reach. The teams around and ahead of them are talented and competitive, but they possess the talent to beat them, and they didn't because they didn't skate their best. The idea of how tantalizingly close it was is so frustrating.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2007
Didn’t they also supposedly move Tara to tears? There was way too much hype.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
This was only K/F's 4th competition I think... the video competition, then SkAm, then USNats... that's all right?
Sadly these were their worst performances. I don't think they were over-hyped. I just think they underperformed what they're capable of achieving.
I think there's some regret that USA didn't pick up the third Olympic spot, but honestly, I'd have put the chances of a 2-spot showing at 80%. Earning 3 spots 15% and a meltdown by one of the teams at 5%.
Two spots was the anticipated outcome, and that's what happened.
Sadly these were their worst performances. I don't think they were over-hyped. I just think they underperformed what they're capable of achieving.
I think there's some regret that USA didn't pick up the third Olympic spot, but honestly, I'd have put the chances of a 2-spot showing at 80%. Earning 3 spots 15% and a meltdown by one of the teams at 5%.
Two spots was the anticipated outcome, and that's what happened.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
Exactly.......They haven't even been together for a year, have they? I hope they're happy and I hope the US will show them a lot of support. It's their first Worlds and this is a good oppoptunity for the to see how far they still need to go if they hope to medal in future.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2014
Yep, we just allowed ourselves to get our hopes up for one split second for three spots. I had no fears of them not being able to secure the two they had going in.
It's their first real international competition in general isn't it?
Considering it wasn't their best outing and they got no international reputation to speak of I think they scored and placed really well. Highest finish since the Knierim's finished 7th in 2015!
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2015
Yeah, I think this is expected and nothing to be concerned about. They finished 7th and 9th, keeping the expected two spots. For a brand-new team who clearly weren't at the top of their game today to finish 7th at their first real international outing is honestly really good. And Ashley and Tim placed where they did at their last worlds, 9th, when everyone was thrilled with them because they got two spots back.
Obviously it would have been lovely to grab three spots but I think this is a reasonable outcome.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
No, I wouldn't say there was too much hype for Alexa/Brandon (except I agree that Tara and Johnny were somewhat OTT with U.S. Nats commentary -- but I think the crying sentiments were mostly a reflection of them remembering what Alexa & Brandon have been through with the injury/illness ups-and-downs over their careers with their former partners).
My view for U.S. fed is just stop with the coddling approach, the over-favoritism generally, the unrealistic scoring at U.S. Nationals, and the over-expectations. Stay on an even keel. Actually, for the most part, the p.r. for Alexa/ Brandon was on point in bringing out their hard work, mutual goals, and their strengths as partners. There was nothing wrong with that. I just find U.S. fed overall to be such a lame, Mom/Pop organization in their approach. U.S. pairs skaters could get even better and regularly compete at the top if the approach to the entire U.S. discipline was more strategic, holistic and fine-tuned, rather than happenstance and so random and diffuse.
Honestly, it's by chance that with 64+ scores in the sp at Worlds, Alexa/Brandon and Ash/Timothy were as high as they were in the sp. It turned out that way because other teams slightly faltered in the sp, but yet put out stronger performances in the fp. So, we ended up getting our hopes up very high for the overall outcome. Possibly, U.S. fed could have tried to temper their reactions to the sp results and not place more pressure on the skaters. However, just because Alexa/Brandon didn't skate the way they could does not mean they don't have the potential to be on the podium. They have huge talent, which is obvious. They just didn't deliver their best performances at Worlds 2021, after making huge progress as a new team. It's important to maintain equilibrium and perspective. I think both teams need to learn something from this experience that will keep them on track and not lower their confidence. So we don't need to pile on them. I'm trying to recognize that the disappointment is in the fact of U.S. pairs being so close that we all wanted them to grab the 3-spots opportunity. But we can't let the fact they didn't get the 3 spots, end up making us feel completely dis-spirited, because we knew it wasn't a given. It's just that it feels to fans like providence enticing us and playing tricks on us.
And we have a right to feel disappointed, but please do not use that disappointment in the wrong way. I'm tired of hearing people knock U.S. teams as a given, and wallowing in past disappointments and conflating everything. It is an accomplishment, particularly for Alexa/Brandon as a new team, to have landed in 7th at their first Worlds. We should try to keep that in mind, please. At the same time, we know Alexa/ Brandon are competitive enough to have even been in 4th or 5th with skating their absolute best and with some other teams faltering slightly. It is NOT hype that they were and are capable of placing higher than 7th.
Now, they have to go back to the drawing board, work harder than ever, and prove themselves more because that's how the sport works. It would have been better to leave a stronger impression of self-belief with the judges. The judges like seeing that and they reward it. Here, in this field, quite clearly Alexa/Brandon have huge talent, and that's why they got decently high GOE on the elements they performed well. So they need to self-reflect, learn all that they can from every moment of this experience, put this behind them, and move forward. Fans constantly belly-aching and criticizing isn't going to help . Acknowledge our disappointment, but try not to overdo it. I'm posting a lot because I have a lot of thoughts. It's not the athletes' faults that expectations were high because they were so close to gaining three spots. We all have to deal with the feeling of disappointment, and then release it. The skaters have to start preparing for their next battles, and forget about what just happened, aside from learning from it and moving on.
I think it is better altogether to balance our disappointment with the reality that Alexa/Brandon are still in a good position. The scores were close 5 through 10 placements. And honestly, Alexa/Brandon have better elements than KMT/MM (who didn't skate lights out). KMT showed disappointment in the kiss 'n cry, because she knew the teams ahead in the sp could skate their best in the fp which would have kept her and Marinaro a few more positions down in the standings. KMT/MM were okay in the fp, not perfect, and so they were lucky to move up higher than anticipated with the competitive potential that other teams have who placed ahead of them in the sp.
Last edited:
Even if the US pairs had earned 3 spots for Worlds, they would only have earned 2 spots for the Olympics, with the possibility of another US pair (not C/L or K/F) qualifying a spot at Nebelhorn. Them's the new rules. Direct Olympic spots are limited to the number of entrants who made the free skate. For the US, that was 2.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2014
It still would have been amazing just to have the chance at getting 3 for the Olympics.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
One more thing and I'll give it a rest: I have to commend Brandon for working it through with the first jumping pass. We could see he was struggling in the warm-up with making the triple and not popping to a double. He finally worked it out and landed two good triples in the warm-up. And then he landed it with determination in the program. But meanwhile, it looks like Brandon's troubles got into Alexa's head and she started worrying about him. What she needed to do obviously was to simply be supportive (as she was), but to balance being encouraging, with then getting on the ice and staying strong and centered within your own self. When it comes to the jumping passes, stop worrying about your partner and concentrate on taking care of your own jumps. It's up to the partner to take care of their jumps.
Strong jumps are one of Alexa/Brandon's assets. But nerves will make jumps the first things to have trouble with. Figure out a way to be looser and calmer. And support each other in some way to calm down, even if it takes humor. But know that you can't jump for each other. You can only jump for yourself. K/F know that their jumps are strong and it is an area in which they trust each other. So I hope they learn how not to let go of that trust under pressure conditions. Just concentrate in the performance on your own jumps and be ready to move forward and be strong, no matter what happens.
I will say that K/F's training helped them to be strong on their other elements. The disappointment comes in just knowing that their jumps should not be a problem for them. They've come very far and they have farther to go. There are positives that they have to concentrate on. Above all, I hope they remember that they belong at the top and they are very competitive. So move forward, without putting extra pressure on themselves. It is what it is.
Strong jumps are one of Alexa/Brandon's assets. But nerves will make jumps the first things to have trouble with. Figure out a way to be looser and calmer. And support each other in some way to calm down, even if it takes humor. But know that you can't jump for each other. You can only jump for yourself. K/F know that their jumps are strong and it is an area in which they trust each other. So I hope they learn how not to let go of that trust under pressure conditions. Just concentrate in the performance on your own jumps and be ready to move forward and be strong, no matter what happens.
I will say that K/F's training helped them to be strong on their other elements. The disappointment comes in just knowing that their jumps should not be a problem for them. They've come very far and they have farther to go. There are positives that they have to concentrate on. Above all, I hope they remember that they belong at the top and they are very competitive. So move forward, without putting extra pressure on themselves. It is what it is.
Three spots for Worlds is nothing to sneeze at, either. And the US does have teams that could make a good run at qualifying Nebelhorn.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
Oh really. So it would have just been 3 spots for Worlds next year, with the opportunity to win a 3rd spot for the Olympics. I wasn't aware of that rule.
This sport is crazy with its complicated and antiquated competitive structure. Bottom line, that situation along with the rampant politics, is what makes it all so tough to be able to actually enjoy and to be fulfilled in watching this sport sometimes.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2014
All the focus has been on Olympic spots because they changed the rules and made them complicated. All the Worlds' rules stayed the same.
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
Yeah, once again, the sport is complicated enough as it is. But without visionary, responsible leadership, the sport continues to meander along with its contradictions, complications, and antiquated competitive structure that only makes everything even harder for athletes to surmount.
People expected too much of K/F at this point in their partnership. A new team takes time to put it all together and not only that but this season hasn't been normal at all a new team needs to get out their and compete and they couldn't do that this season. A normal season would include 2 GP events maybe a Senior B then Nationals and 4CC. So instead of competing as many as five times they only skated twice at SA and Nationals. It would have been nice to have a chance at a 3rd spot but i think C/J will have the inside track for the 2nd spot because they have more upside then C/L who have maxed out. I really wish they hadn't backed out of Worlds because they would have finished higher then C/L and i bet they are kicking themselves for not going. Chances like these don't come along often and they now have made two World teams and not competed. Have they said why they didn't go to Worlds? To me it was a big mistake.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
Although you can say it might be a reasonable outcome based on how K/F and Ash/TImothy didn't perform at their best level, the fact is that they both have the talent to perform better, so it is a bit hard to accept that we know performing better was possible, which means higher placements were within their grasp. None of the teams in the third and second to last groups were actually lights out, performance-wise. A few just increased their level after performing poorly in the sp. The biggest disappointment is that K/F and Ash/Timothy didn't skate the way they could. In this sport, it is important to do your best, and then let the chips fall where they may. If you falter, just try to stay strong overall, so fortunately that's what they both did. Still, the tentativeness on the jumps is disappointing when that's the strong element for both teams. Having an emotional investment like I do, makes it hard to watch and to accept they didn't rise to the occasion. But this too shall pass. At least they held their own after making mistakes.
So the positive thing is that we know they both could have at the very least performed better and scored a lot more points. It's really better not to worry about placements anyway (easier said than done of course). We knew going in that a variety of different placement scenarios were possible. It's just that after the sp, hopes were so high. Neither U.S. team actually performed their absolute best in the sp, and their scores were a bit low too in the sp. They landed in the positions they did in the sp because they have strong elements that held them in good stead, and then several teams faltered a bit which gave the two U.S. teams a slight advantage in the scoring.
Honestly, Alexa/Brandon have much stronger elements than KMT/MM, and also A&B had the advantage of competing more this season. In the end, A&B had to learn about experiencing pressure together in major competition and what that feels like, and how they have to trust each other through that. KMT/MM have been together longer and though they are not the best physical match, and Marinaro isn't the strongest pairs guy, and they don't have huge weapons, KMT/MM's personalities are in sync, they're gritty, and they've been helped a lot by their choreographer, Julie Marcotte, and their coaching team.
